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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: LeungKen on Saturday 05 September 09 09:30 BST (UK)
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I am seeking information about my grandfather, Fredrick Thomas Williams, born 22nd Sept 1884 (Fairly sure) he was born out of wedlock to Rose Ann Wlliams who subsequently married John Cole and they then had 4 daughters, Lizzie, Ethel, Laura & Hannah. I do know that Hannah was born in 1894 and the address given on her birth certificate was 2 Vernon Place, West Gorton.
I remember back in the 1950's visiting Lizzie & Laura at 50 Forest Range, Levenshulme.
Any information about how I can glean a bit of background would be much appreciated as I'm now living in Thailand and getting on in years and would like to fill my nieces request for details for their children.
Thanks in anticipation. Ken
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Here they are in 1901 - looks like Frederick has been entered as William Frederick and then surname "Cole" dittoed!!!!
2 Vernon Place manchester lancs
John Cole head M 60 (or 68?)Carter Brickmakers carrier Gloucester Gloucestershire
Rose wife 45 Malpas Cheshire
William Fred son 17 Butcher
Lizzie daughter 9
hannah daughter 6
Frances daughter 2
children all b manchester
RG13 3687 55 28
Suz
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Suzard,
Thanks for such a great quick response.
It seems to fit perfectly as Fred (Grandad) was most certainly apprenticed to be a butcher boy at a very early age (about 13 y.o. from memory. Now if only I knew how to track down a bit more about his mother, I doubt that I'll ever find out who his biological father was, as the story I was told, was his mother was made pregnant by someone in the "big house" where his mother (Ann Rose) was in "domestic service". No doubt she was probably sacked and the whole thing covered up due to the stigma or shame at that time.
Maybe I should try following her thread in Cheshire (What does Malpas mean ? )
Thanks Again
Cheers
Ken
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Hi ,
Malpas is the name of the place in Cheshire where Rose has stated she is boen
This looks like them in 1891
2 Vernon Place Gorton Manchester Lancs
John Coles head M 55 Carter Dymock Gloucestershire
Rose wife 27 Malpas Cheshire
Frederick son 6 Manchester lancs
Laura R daughter 3 Manchester lancs
Mary E Williams Mother in law 52 living on own means Bickley cheshire
RG12 3173 104 20
I think daughter frances (in1901) was named Frances Ethel
I'll judst have a look around some more
Sorry I forgot to Welcome you so....
a big Welcome to RootsChat.
When you have made 3 posts you can use the private message facility -which means you can send messages which will not show up on the boards - some information we are not allowed to post on the boards - e.g. deatails of people who are (or may be) living
I already have some information I would like to send to you by PM -so keep posting!!!
Suz
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Suz,
You're an angel.
You've no idea how mammoth a task this is to me, only getting to grips with the internet fairly recently. Plus my parents are both dead as is my elder brother who'd actually started to trace our paternal grandfather but only through the male line. I'm actually trying to do just a bit for all 4 of my grandparents.
I do know that Fredrick Thomas Williams married my Grandmother Florence Harrison on 25th January 1907 somewhere in Manchester (I think) they then moved to the new Garden City of Letchworth in 1910,
Florence Harrison had a sister Annie so that's another avenue of investigation I need to do later.
Once again Thanks for all your help
Best wishes from a very tropically wet Phuket today
Cheers
Ken
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Did you know Rose married again??
freeBMD
marriage reg
Jun qtr 1906
Chorlton district
Richard hampson
Rose Ann Cole
8c 1670
Richard was a labourer on the railways - I don't think they had any more children
Suz
Lizzie Cole - was (I think) named Sarah Elizabeth -they seemed to use their middle names
daughter laura R Coles was laura Rose don't know where she was in 1901 -will see if i can find her
Suz
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Hi ...only ONE Frederick Thomas Williams born in Sept Qtr 1884..
Williams Frederick Thomas Chorlton 8c 751....back soon ...checking Lancashire bmd....allan
ok...ADDED...onlancs bmd
williams frederick thomas registered Ardwick Manchester 1884 ref ARD/191/66
Presumably Chorlton comes under Ardwick does it ?....allan
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Hi ken,
You are doing great - there are lots of RootsChatters who are willing to help and advise
I found laura in 1901
1901
Stockport Rd Longsight Gorton Manchester lancs
Laura Cole servant 13 Domestic Servant Longsight manchester
She is in the household of Thomas Simpson (Stable and Carriage Proprietor) his wife and 3 children age between 4 & 10 years
RG13 3687 66 14
Suz
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Greetings All
I'm flabbergasted and overwhelmed by your help - you've made an old bloke very happy with what you have found out already.
A huge Thank You All and if you're ever in Phuket the drinks are on me :D
and to Roots Chat, Cheers & Good Health
Ken
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So pleased we are helping
Did Frederick Thomas and Florence have a son named Alfred Charles?????
Suz
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a bit strange I can`t find Rose Ann Williams babtism on CPRDb... Malpas Chester as far as I know is translated....AHA...just noticed Kens post...quote ..where ANN ROSE....I`ve been looking for Rose Ann....back soon...allan
ADDED....only ONE possible but no name ROSE on the babtism ...so may not be our Ann
babtised at St John the Babtist church, 18th November 1855...
Ann Williams
father William...occ...cowkeeper
mother Catharine....address Park Street , Malpas..............allan
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Hi Suz,
Yes they did, he died an early death (about 5 or 6 y.o. and I think he was buried in Letchworth Old Church graveyard.
They also had 2 Daughters, Florence (my aunt) and Joan my mother.
Fredrick Thomas Williams served in WW1 from 1915 - 1919 with the A.S.C. as a Private (Army Service Corp I believe - I know he drove a lorry as he had a drivers licence, which at least kept him out of the trenches)
Cheers Again
Ken
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Hi Garstonite,
from 1891 census we know Rose's mother was mary e williams and she was born Bickley cheshire
I can't locate them in earlier census - nor can I locate marriage of Rose to John Cole (Coles?)
Suz
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Hi Suz & Garstonite & Allan,
I have just had information from my cousin, Re.Fredrick Thomas Williams. who has viewed the birth certificate of Hannah Cole (F.T.Williams's half sister) and it states that she was born in 1894 at 2 Vernon Place, West Gorton, Manchester, Her mothers name is listed as Rose Ann Cole and that her husband's name was John Cole.
It's believed that Rose Ann Williams/Cole later remarried (the lodger ! ) a Mr. Hampton (Spelling uncertain )
Cor the plot gets murkier... :o
Cheers and thanks again
Regards
Ken
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Hi Ken,
if the birth certificate of Hannah has been viewed it would also give the maiden name of Rose Ann.
Rose married (the lodger) Richard Hampson in 1906 -but I don't think they had any children together.-I posted the marriage reg previously.
So maybe john Cole died between 1901 (as he appears on that census and 1907
I'll have a look
Suz
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Now -here's another twist!!!!!
I think I have found Rose Ann with her parents and siblings
if you look back to the 1891 census -Rose and John have mary E Williams with them who is described as mother in law to John - so that is mother of Rose.
However it looks like she is in fact Rose's stepmother!!!!
Rose is consistent with her p.o.b. - but not her age!!!
1891 census she is age 27
1901 census she is age 45 -although it is very difficult to read on the image
1911 she is 44 - but she could have knocked a few years off her age as her husband was only in his thirties
It was quite a common practice to knock a few years off when a lady married a younger man
working on the assumption that the age in 1891 is nerest the correct age I have found the following -which I think is quite possibly the correct family
1881
9 Montague Ave
Gorton
lancs
Job Williams Head M 49 Lab
Mary wife 47
James W son widower 27 lab
ROSE daughter 16 General servant
George son 14 Office Boy
Jane daughter 8 scholar
all b malpas Cheshire (although on some census Job is b in Wales -which is most probable)
RG11 3906 73 57
1871
Wychough Lane
malpas Cheshire
Job Williams head M 42 ag lab Threapwood Flintshire Wales
Eliza wife 39
Frederick son 13
henry son 9
ROSE ANN aughter 6
Thomas son 5
George son 3
Martha daughter 1
Eliza and children born Malpas
RG10 2798 25 40
1861
Well St
malpas cheshire
Job Williams head m 30 ag lab
Eliza wife 29
Elizabeth daughter 8
John son 6
James son 4
Frederick son 2
Thomas son 6mths
William Jackson Boarder u Bricklayer Cheshire
all Williams family b Malpas
RG9 1891 16 26
back later with more
Suz
1871
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this is probalywhy Job altersp.o.b.
The parish of Threapwood was formed out of parts of the parish of Worthenbury Flintshire and Malpas Chester (Cheshire)
It was previouslyan extra parochial place.
The Flintshire part of the parish was transferred to Cheshire n 1896
Suz
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Hi Suz.
Wow..! :o ( I think this is the emoticon for Gob-smacked !)
Your researching skills are incredible.
Some of this makes sense as there were rumours that Granddad ( F.T. Williams) had some Welsh blood in him, but with a name like Williams to be expected.
By what you have discovered so far you make me wonder when Granddad's mother (Rose Ann ) moved to the Manchester area, and was she "with child then", possibly sent away to stay with relatives (Not uncommon in those times )
I'm still happy to trace any link back whether it's paternal or maternal, and therefor very grateful for all that you've unearthed so far. I'd always been 99% certain that I'd never be able to trace Grandad's true father, but any further information on his mother's side would be a huge bonus.
I must remind you that there has always been some doubt over Grandad's true date of birth and that the 22nd Sept 1884 may not be the absolute "Gospel Truth" but with the known facts that we have with his siblings it all seems to tie in so far., and even if we can't go back any further I shall still be for ever thankful for what you've unearthed so far.
My only other query to you is how can I go back a generation or two on Florence Harrison (F.T. Williams' wife - for over 50 years) and younger sister of Annie, both believed to have been born in the Manchester area. It was Annie who first moved to Letchworth Garden City Herts, with her husband Charlie Royal and at their suggestion my grandparents subsequently moved there to reap the benefits of clean air and a new start after the grime & poverty of industrial Manchester. It was in Letchworth that my mother grew up and subsequently married my father.
My brother, before he passed away, started to trace back our paternal line so I do have a little knowledge of my paternal Grandfather, but what I also want to do is check back on my paternal Grandmother's side so will try and see how I go about opening a thread in the appropriate section (I guess there is a Hertfordshire section in Roots Chat is there ?)
Once again thank you from the bottom of my heart for all the time you have already spent on this research, I feel I can now at least leave (when my time comes) my nieces with a few clues as to their ancestry and that I've tried to do my bit to keep the family history alive - we are all, after all said and done, a product of our genes.
Best Wishes
Ken.
P.S. It's actually my 62nd birthday today, and the info that you good people of Roots Chat have provided so far is a birthday present beyond expectation.
:). :-*. ;)
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Greetings
I have just received information from my cousin who has the marriage certificate for F.T. Williams to Florence Harrison.
Married on 25th January 1907, her father's name listed as Joseph Harrison (Butcher, which ties in as my granddad worked for him before marrying his daughter - so the story goes)
Granddad's trade listed as butcher, and his residential address as 18 South Avenue, Buxton.
grandmothers occupation - Domestic Servant, address - 19 Station Road ?? Married at the Parish Church in Brancaster (where ever that is maybe she lived there ??)
The Buxton link is interesting as one of F. T.Williams' sisters (Hannah I think ) was living near there at Chapel-en-le-frith in the 1950's With her husband (Jack ?) as I remember visiting them as a lad of about 9 for some sort of family reunion. Coincidence or did we have other relations in the area ?
The one thing I have discovered about delving back in time is that the more uncovered so I discover even more layers to look under.
Once again thanks to all for the assistance so far.
Cheers
Ken
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I have this photograph of Fredrick Thomas Williams and his wife Florence (Nee Harrison) taken about the time of their 50th wedding anniversary by my parents who took them back to the church in which they were married. I never knew where it was but it does resemble the arch at the Brancaster Parish Church (after Googling several images.)
Now I wonder if I can attach it so that you can put faces to names.
Am I allowed ?
Not sure how to do it
Regards
Ken
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Happy birthday, Ken
I will be sending you a present by PM!!!!!
You can attach pics -
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,130922.0.html
the Buxton connection is interesting - Frederick and Florence's first son who died when he was young was born in Buxton (which is in Derbyshire and not far from where I'm sitting now
I will send you a PM -just let me know you have received it and then I can send you some interestng info
Suz
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PM sent
This looks like Florence in 1901
47 Melbourn St
Salford Lancs
Emma Hughes Head Widow 48 Salford Lancs
Joseph Harrison Boarder widower 46 Butcher Salford
James Harrison boarder U 18 Butcher's porter Peel green Lancs
FLORENCE HARRISON Boarder 15 Servant (Domestic) Salford lancs
RG13 3735 141 31
Suz
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Hi
(I'm Ken's cousin by the way!)
I have been searching through the BMD index to try and find Rose Ann Williams marriage to John Cole and have found entries to both of them but in different quarters to different people could this be a transcription error?
Does this mean I would have to go to Kew to try and see which one is correct?
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I can confirm the above.
Also I was wondering if it is at all possible to go any further back than Job Williams and or Rose Ann ?
Thanks in anticipation
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Greetings All,
After quite a spell I have decided to see if I can pick up any clues as to who one of my maternal great-grandfathers was.
I have established that my maternal grandfather (Fredrick Thomas Williams) was born in Sept.,1884 in Manchester. His mother was Rose Ann Williams and had my grandfather out of wedlock - the family story goes that she was working as a domestic servant to a family in Manchester ? and was made pregnant by the son of the household.
What I wanted to know was is there a way we can find out who she was working for prior to 1884 ?
Any help will be much appreciated.
Cheers & Thanks in anticipation
Ken