RootsChat.Com

England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: aliyaze1999 on Wednesday 02 September 09 15:11 BST (UK)

Title: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: aliyaze1999 on Wednesday 02 September 09 15:11 BST (UK)
I am wondering if there is a North and a South Shields.  I have an ancestor who is from South Shields.  I might have found another ancestor who is listed in a census in the United States in 1882 as being originally from North Shields.  Does such a place exist or is this a mistake on the census?  I can't find anything that says that there is a North Shields in the 1880s.  I would appreciate any help that any one has. 
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: bopsey on Wednesday 02 September 09 15:21 BST (UK)
North Shields is north of the Tyne and South Shields is south of the Tyne. South Shields may be Durham (county) but North Shields will be Northumberland. They are joined by a ferry and nowdays a tunnel!
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 02 September 09 15:24 BST (UK)
HI  :D

There certainly is a place called North Shields, it is on the northern side of the River Tyne (opposite South Shields) and it is in Northumberland (as Stan told you a few days ago http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,402382.msg2715798.html#msg2715798 )

See http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=435500&Y=568500&A=Y&Z=120

North Shields formerly fell within the Tynemouth Registration District, and you can find more information about it here http://www.genuki.bpears.org.uk/NBL/Tynemouth/index.html

You will also find more if you have a look at some of the sources of information which were suggested to you in this thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,402382.msg2715775.html#msg2715775

Hope this helps  :)

Jennifer
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: aliyaze1999 on Wednesday 02 September 09 15:41 BST (UK)
Thanks for the help.  It is hard to navigate my way around a county that I know nothing about.  Sorry to have to ask twice about the same subject.
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 02 September 09 16:03 BST (UK)
Is there anyone in particular you're looking for information about?
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: aliyaze1999 on Wednesday 02 September 09 16:40 BST (UK)
I am looking for a man named John Scott born about 1840 and his wife maybe the following year (Sarah Watson).  They came to the US on a ship with Mormons called "John Bright".  The information here is confusing because obviously the whole names of cites, etc. in England are not correct.  If you know of anything, I would appreciate it.  If I can help with anything you are searching for, just ask.
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 02 September 09 16:47 BST (UK)
When did they travel to the US?

Were they already married when they arrived?

What exactly does the census you refer to give as their birthplaces?

(Just trying to narrow things down a bit)

Jennifer


Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: aliyaze1999 on Wednesday 02 September 09 17:09 BST (UK)
The census says "Shields, Durham, England" for John born Nov 3, 1840.  He married Sarah before they came to the US. March 5, 1865 at St. John's Church in Lancashire, England.  They come to the US right after that and arrive here in June 1865.  They were one of many English who converted and sailed with a huge group of Mormons.  The census for them some times says South Shields and sometimes just Shields.  I have also found who I think might be a father or grandfather to John in the US but for North Shields as his birthplace.  I haven't a clue.  While the census here can be good, they can be very confusing.  I have the family in Illinois - it is trying to place them back in England where we are having such a hard time.
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 02 September 09 17:33 BST (UK)
Quote
He married Sarah before they came to the US. March 5, 1865


Have you got the marriage certificate which should give his father's name? This will make him easier to find in the earlier censuses.

Jennifer
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: danuslave on Wednesday 02 September 09 17:43 BST (UK)
The only likely marriage I can find in Lancashire 1865 Q1 is for

John Scott & Sarah Barham  (Salford Vol 8d Page 36)

Do you know if Sarah had been married before?

Do you have a town for where the marriage took place?  Lancashire is a county and covers a big area.

Linda
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 02 September 09 19:17 BST (UK)
There is a submitted record for John Scott on the IGI.

In this it states that the marriage took place in March 1866 . There is a match in freeBMD in the 1st quarter of 1866 - but the marriage was in Stockton on Tees in County Durham. There is no match in Lancashire.

According to this source http://www.xmission.com/~nelsonb/ship_desc.htm#jbright the John Bright with its Mormon passengers left England in 1866 not 1865, so this would tie up nicely.

What was the documentary source for the marriage having taken place in Lancashire?

What is the source for his date of birth being 3rd November 1840?

Jennifer

Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: aliyaze1999 on Wednesday 02 September 09 20:59 BST (UK)
Hi - the source for both birthdates are US census.  John is listed as November 3, 1840 and Sarah as March 1840.  The marriage is March 5, 1866 at St. John's Church, Lancaster, Lancashire, England.  I do not have the source of that marriage.  I also do not have a marriage certificate for them.  Sorry about the year of their marriage.  I should have written 1866. 
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: danuslave on Wednesday 02 September 09 21:27 BST (UK)
Quote
There is a match in freeBMD in the 1st quarter of 1866 - but the marriage was in Stockton on Tees in County Durham

Looking on A***

John Scott & Sarah Watson  1866 Q1 Stockton  Volume 10a  Page 72

(The other 2 people listed are George Perry & Lucy Bashford)

Linda
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: danuslave on Wednesday 02 September 09 21:36 BST (UK)
Quote
I have also found who I think might be a father or grandfather to John in the US but for North Shields as his birthplace.

If you give us all the information you have about him, we may be able to tie him in with John in the census returns.

Linda
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: aliyaze1999 on Wednesday 02 September 09 21:46 BST (UK)
The information that I have on John Scott (who might be the father to the other John Scott born abt 1840) is the following.  This comes from a burial record in Plano, Illinois.  John Scott born May 1797 North Shields, England, died June 7, 1882 in Plano, Illinois.
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 02 September 09 22:15 BST (UK)
Quote
John is listed as November 3, 1840


I have found this baptism at Holy Trinity South Shields:
29th November 1840, John son of John and Jane Scott of South Shields. Father's occupation,: dealer in china
(source - family searchlabs)

This ties with this entry in the 1841 census

HO 107 / 297 / Book 16 / Folio 10 / p. 15
East Holborn, South Shields

John Scott, 40, china dealer, no
Jane do, 22, no
John do, 7 months, Yes
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 02 September 09 22:20 BST (UK)
This looks like the same family in 1861

RG 9 / 3748 / Folio 5 / Page 18

14, Back Terrace, Dawdon
John Scott, head, M, 61, upholsterer, North'ld Shields
Jane do, wife, m, 41, Berwick on Tweed,
John do, son, unm, 20, printer (compositor) Durham Shields
Margaret do, daur, unm, 18, do do
William H. do, son, 15, upholsterer ap, do Seaham
Mary A. do, daur, 13, scholar, do do
Thomas C. do, son, 12, do, do do
Joseph S. do, son, 8, do, do do


I think this is the same John also because your John was a printer on the 1880 U.S. census at Plano, Illinois
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: aliyaze1999 on Wednesday 02 September 09 22:29 BST (UK)
Thanks so much!  You guys are truly amazing.  Thanks again for helping me!  Please let me know if there is anyone that you should need help with!
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 02 September 09 22:34 BST (UK)
I suspect that the marriage is the one at Stockton, and that the submitted entry on the IGI is incorrect. (it wouldn't be the first time!)

I don't have access to the 1851 census to find the missing entry  - can you help, Linda?

Jennifer
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 02 September 09 22:40 BST (UK)
This looks like John's birth registration:
John Scott, 4th quarter 1840, South Shields, 24, 173

If you got the certificate it would give you his mother's maiden name - you might then be able to find the marriage of his parents - if it was post-September 1837 the certificate would give you their father's names.

Jennifer

Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: danuslave on Wednesday 02 September 09 22:46 BST (UK)
1851   Class: HO107; Piece: 2392; Folio: 534; Page: 14

North Railway Street, Seaham Harbour, County Durham

John Scott   Head  Mar  52   Master Upholsterer  b Northumberland, North Shields
Jane Scott   Wife  Mar  31   b Northumberland,  Berwick-on-Tweed
John Scott   Son  10   Scholar   b Durham, South Shields
Margaret Scott   Dau  7   Scholar   b Durham, South Shields
William Scott   Son  5   Scholar  b Durham, Seaham
Mary Scott   Dau  3  at home  b Durham, Seaham
Thomas Scott   Son  2  at home  b Durham, Seaham

This also shows the difference between North Shields and South Shields quite nicely  :D

Linda

Added  -  Seaham Harbour

www.seaham.com
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: aliyaze1999 on Wednesday 02 September 09 22:51 BST (UK)
I think that John's mom is Jane Davis?  Not positive.  I have to ask.  Do you both live in England?  I am amazed at how much you have helped.  One other question.  Since I don't live in England can you tell me one thing?  Looking at a map, it seems that North and South Shields are separated by a river.  Am I seeing it right?  Are these 2 areas (in today's time) easy to get too?  I mean is it just a quick ride in a car?  I am guessing that it is like Chicago.  We have a north and south side.  Is this the case?
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: danuslave on Wednesday 02 September 09 23:13 BST (UK)
I live in the south west of England (just north of Bristol), so I'm no expert. 

The river is the Tyne which, if you follow it west, flows between Newcastle upon Tyne and Gateshead.  There doesn't look to be a bridge between North & South Shields.  The nearest one is at Jarrow. 

In American terms, that's just up the road! But in the rush hour it might not feel like that.

If you google North Shields or South Shields, you will get loads of information & pictures.  Just spotted on wikipedia that locally, North Shields is often referred to as just 'Shields'

Linda
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: Springbok on Wednesday 02 September 09 23:18 BST (UK)
Hi Ali,

Go to Google Maps and enter North Shields .When it says "get directions " enter South Shields.

As they are on opposite sides of the Tyne, it means going back into Newcastle to cross the bridge.

lived there many years ago(55!!)  and I know it didn't take that long even though we had to use public transport

Spring
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: aliyaze1999 on Wednesday 02 September 09 23:37 BST (UK)
Linda,

Well you and Jen are certainly the experts on this stuff.  Like I said earlier, this is the first time I have had to look anything up in England.  I didn't even know that my relatives came from any where but Ireland up until one month ago!  It certainly helps me to understand North/South Shields when I can relate to it in modern times.  Thanks to both of you so much!  It does sound like the north and south side of Chicago.  It doesn't take a very long time but in traffic it sure seems longer!  If you ever need help with anything in the US, please let me know!


Cindy
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: danuslave on Wednesday 02 September 09 23:58 BST (UK)
Glad to help.  Come back any time   :D :D

Linda
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: JenB on Thursday 03 September 09 10:19 BST (UK)
Quote
I think that John's mom is Jane Davis?  Not positive

You would have to purchase John's birth certificate (see my post #19 above) in order to ascertain this.

Quote
North Shields is often referred to as just 'Shields'

As is South Shields. Hence Cindy's understandable confusion! Now sorted, we hope  ;)

Jennifer
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: Gadget on Thursday 03 September 09 10:31 BST (UK)
Hi all

As someone who lives on Tyneside, I can give some info on getting from North to South Shields  -

either by ferry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shields_Ferry

or there's the Tyne Tunnel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyne_Tunnel

or you could take the Metro - but this means going in to central Newcastle and changing trains.

Alternatively, you'd need to take the coast road into Newcastle, cross the Tyne Bridge and then drive along  south of the Tyne.


Gadget
Title: Re: South Shields, Durham, England
Post by: 2zpool on Thursday 03 September 09 16:15 BST (UK)
Getting away from geography here.  Baptism in Tynemouth Christ Church:

John Scott born 2 May 1797, baptised 2 Dec 1798 2nd son of John Scott of North Shields, Mariner, native of Gateshead [Co. Durham] by his wife Esther Dickenson native of Tanfield [Co. Durham]

There is also an Adam 4th son b 1806  and Esther 2nd daur born 1811


Seaham Harbour St. John's

21 Sep 1845 William Henry Scott, son of John Scott & Jane
26 Aug 1847 Mary Ann Davis Waters Scott, daughter of John Scott & Jane
13 May 1849 Thomas Charles Scott, son of John Scott & Jane

Note that Mary has the Davis as part of her name

Janis