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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Kent => England => Kent Lookup Requests => Topic started by: dmollison on Wednesday 02 September 09 12:17 BST (UK)
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I'd be grateful if anyone with access to an appropriate library in Kent can look up the following, and let me know if there's any extra info such as address, father's occupation, or witnesses' names.
Susanna Sophia Austin, christened 9 Sep 1804, Barham, Kent, England.
Parents: James Austin & Sophia (Hill)
The Batch number is C041635. The source call number is microfilm number 1736523
Item 5. According to the catalogue of the Salt Lake Library found on the FamilySearch website, these records are ' Bishop's transcripts: Baptisms,
marriages and burials 1603-1813' for Barham.
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Hi
The Barham Registers are on line if it helps at http://www.barham-kent.org.uk/Genealogy.htm
I note that the birth Name is Austen not Austin.
Chris
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Thanks: but what I was after was the original register, in case it contained extra info not in the IGI.
The parents, James Austin & Sophia Hill, had 9 children in 5 locations (Barham, Chatham, Bray near Maidenhead, Melton Mowbray and St James Piccadilly).
But I can't find their marriage. Susanna Sophia was the oldest daughter, so any info on father's occupation or names of witnesses might help identify where they came from. Three of their children went out to Ceylon, whither various Austen/Austins from Ramsgate had gone, so James might be related to them.
If anyone can find the marriage of James Austin/Austen and Sophia Hill I'll of course be very grateful; it's not in the IGI.
The transcription is however interesting, in that it differs in both spelling (Austen) and date (2 Sep 1804) from the IGI (Austin, 9 Sep 1804); the date difference could be that one is birth and the other baptism?
As to the spelling, the Ramsgate family were mostly spelt Austen, as was James's 2nd child at her baptism (Mary Ann, Chatham 9 Apr 1806), so that makes their being related more plausible.
Thanks for your help
Denis
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Hi Denis
I am descended from Mary Livingston Morris [ Austin] , daughter of James Austin & Sophia [ Hill].. I have not been able to find any details of James other than what you have noted here....Have you had any success since?
Thanks
Bruce
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No, I haven't got any further back with James Austin/Sophia Hill - earliest is the baptisms of their 9 children, starting with Susanna Sophia in 1804.
I do have an increasing amount on the children's families, though very little on your ancestress, Mary Ann Austen, c 9 Apr 1806 Chatham
Mary Ann Austin (1806 Chatham - ?1876 Barnstaple)
m. William Morris (1808 Quebec - ?1883 Kensington), Ceylon Civil Service
-> Robert WT M. (1835/6-1908), m 1864 Sarah Louisa Woodall, ?no children
prob at least one older son (w. 2 daus. b 1856/7)
I can't remember what that last note was based on. Can you tell me what children Mary Ann & William Morris had?
Denis
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Do you now have the information from the original baptisms of the children baptised in Picadilly ie. 1813/1815/1817/1819 address of St James St and occupation of gent, club house keeper, vintner, gent respectively?
Casalguidi :)
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Hi Denis
Thanks for the prompt reply
Mary Ann married William Morris b Quebec 1808 and had 2 known children: RWT and Mary Livingstone Morris. MLM m. 1. Frederick William Gisborne [1826-1864] and then 2 Frederick George Davis, my maternal ggf., to whom she bore 6 children, the youngest of whom Arthur was my GF. FG Davis migrated to Tasmania as did his half-brother , Frederick AW Gisborne.
If you are an Ancestry member this is all [?] in my tree Walker-Gilbert, in more detail.
The Morris line claims descendancy from Lord Livingstone of Callendar, though I can find no link .William appears to have been born of an Irish father in Canada. Both were in the British Army.
Bruce
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Thanks for al lthe info on Mary Ann Austen's family!
A few queries ..
1) I think you have the wrong Sarah Louis Woodall marrying Mary Ann's son Robert. The right one was chr. in Manchester Cathedral 7 Oct 1836 (IGI), parents James W (a Woollen cloth merchant in Manchester in the 1861 census) and Eliza.
2) When and where did Mary Ann die? I had Barnstaple 1876, aged 69 (from BMD), you have Kensington 1881 - more plausible place, perhaps (tho' their son lived in Devon), but age (acc. BMD) slightly wrong for our Mary Ann. Have you seen the d cert? (I seldom do, at £7 a time!).
3) Were her children Mary and Robert twins? His census age(s) suggest they're very close in age.
4) Could she (Mary Ann) have had any other children?
Any help welcome!
Denis
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Do you now have the information from the original baptisms of the children baptised in Picadilly ie. 1813/1815/1817/1819 address of St James St and occupation of gent, club house keeper, vintner, gent respectively?
Casalguidi :)
Yes, I had looked those up. I also have "cook" for son William's baptism (1811, Melton Mowbray). [William went on to be a coffee planter in Ceylon, returning to die in Islington 1848, leaving one daughter, Katherine Evelyn Austin, a cousin and friend of my gggm.]
I'd still be interested if anyone can look at that Barham baptism (2 or 9 Sep 1804) to see if it gives James's profession then - he does seem to have moved a lot!
Denis
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Yes it does give his profession, it is Sutler, this means one who follows an army or lives in a garrison town and sells provisions to the soldiers.
He is Sutler to the 1st Regt of Foot guards.
I will also send you a private message
Lis
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Hi Denis
Thank you for the corrections for SLW and MAA. I think your death for Mary Ann in Barnstaple is actually correct and will update my record for her too. I think I was misled by finding her widower husband in Kensington in the 1881 census.
Like you I have few death certificates, partially due to the poor exchange rate for the Aussie dollar in years past.
Finding the marriages William and MaryAnn, and Robert and Louisa would help !!
I have no additional information on MaryL or RobertWT; my grandmother Elsie Davis nee Priestley certainly did not mention any siblings and she had a good handle on most of the family. Regretably I did not ask nearly enough questions while she was alive.
Bruce
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Bruce, the marriage of Sarah Louisa WOODALL was at St George, Hulme, Manchester 1864 http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/ - you could try a lookup here on the Rootschat Lancashire Lookup Requests board.
Denis, what do you know about Sophia (wife of James AUSTIN) ie. age/demise/origins which may help pinpoint her whereabouts during her early years thus hints for a marriage place?
Casalguidi :)
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Ref Sarah Louisa Woodall - yes, her marriage to Robert WT Morris in 1864 is in BMD; also, as mentioned, her family are in various censuses, e.g. 1861 -
c1861 - 56 Richmond Hill, Stretford
James Woodall Head M 57? Woollen cloth merchant b Manchester
Eliza " Wife M 55 "
James W " Son U 21 Articled law clerk "
Sarah L " Dau U 24 "
Elizabeth A " Dau U 16 "
+ 2 servts.
Ref Mary Ann's marriage to William Morris. Presumably this was in Ceylon, ca. 1833-5. It might be in the Asiatic Journal, or even in the Colombo Journal, which was started in 1832 as a semi-official pubication by George Lee who later married Mary Ann's sister Martha Austin. I've looked online, but fear you'd have to go somewhere like the British Library in St Pancras's India section to find a paper copy to search.
Ref Sophia Hill. I have an excess of info on many of her children's families, but nothing on her beyond the baptism entries for 9 children, 1804-19.
Is there an online index for Kent wills? I've just seen a reference to the death of a James Austin, with a probable relative Mary Ann Austin, in April 1834, which would be about right for our James, though judging by the rest of his career he could be anywhere!
Best wishes - Denis
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just google East kent wills and you will go to the index on Kent Archaeology site.
Then having found the Will you can ask Canterbury Cathedral Archives to photocopy and send. Thats what I do.
Its a good service.
Lis
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It is a while since the last post on this topic, but I have not been able to trace back either James Austin or Sophia Hill. Has anyone done any better please ? I am particularly interested to see whether James is related to the Dr William Austin who married Sidney Sophia Morris in Ceylon in 1829. That Dr William appears to have Scottish origins, and later settled in Quebec. SSM is/was teh sister of William Morris who married Mary Ann Austin , daughter of James and Sophia in Colombo 9 July 1834
Bruce
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Haven't got further with James Austin's origins, tho' have filled out his career. From in 1804 being sutler to the 1st Regiment of Foot, which was renamed the Grenadier Guards I think near the end of the Napoleonic War, he went on to be the club keeper for the Guards' Club at 49 St James's St, from shortly after the club was formed in 1813 until late 1822 - I found an advert for the sale of his stock of 600 cases of fine wine on leaving the Guards Club.
This has led to a probable identification of Sophia Hill, as the daughter b 1778 of Adam Hill, who died on 6 Nov 1820 - `In Park-street, Windsor, Adam Hill, many years Mess-master to the Officers of the Brigade of Guards' [Gentleman's Magazine]. He married Mary Pring on 10 July 1776, at St Anne, Soho
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Anne Hill b 4 May, c 14 May 1777 St Marylebone
Sophia Hill b 29 (31?) Oct, c 18 Nov 1778 (?/15 Jun 1779) St Marylebone
Mary Ann Hill Baptism 9 Dec 1781 St Marylebone
Adam Hill Baptism 30 Jul 1784 St Marylebone
Martha Hill Baptism 25 Sep 1785 St Marylebone
Sarah Hill Baptism 28 Oct 1787 St Marylebone
William Hill Baptism 25 Feb 1789 St Marylebone
Joseph Hill Baptism 1 Aug 1790 St Marylebone
Mary Anna Hill b 12 Nov, c 27 Nov 1791 St Marylebone
Coming back to James Austin, I had a look at the Austin-Morris connection. It looks pretty definite that there were brother and sister William M (1808-1883) and Sidney Sophia Austin (1811-1875) who both married Austins in Ceylon, but I can't see any known or likely connection between those spouses - JA/SH's daughter Mary Ann Austin (1806-) and the military surgeon William Austin (1790-1871) - though if there isn't it's quite a coincidence! Have you got confirmation of William Austin's birth and parentage in Glasgow? - a tree (yours?) gives his paernts as Robert Austin and Harriet/Henrietta Copeland; I can find a bit about them on familysearch, but not William's birth.
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I have actually looked at the image you requested from the Barham Registers and it only gives a baptism and that was 2 September 1804. I tried to attach an image but was unable to do so.
rick
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Sorry, I should have reported that I found the original item requested under this thread some time ago. The entry reads
Susannah Sophia Daughr. of James Austin, Sutler to the first Regt. of Foot Guards & Sophia his Wife Septemr. 2nd
The Christening register page is interesting, showing first, over 18 Sundays from 10 April to 12 August, ten christenings, so about one per fortnight, with no parental occupation given, presumably all permanent inhabitants of the parish; then there are 7 on 19 August, 2 on 26th, 3 on 2 September, so 12 in just 3 weeks; of these, the first on 2 Sept has no occupation given, so presumably a local, and the other 11 have army fathers (8 from 18th Regiment, 1 from 53rd, and 2 from the 1st Regt of Foot Guards). The army was clearly a recent arrival - it was stationed at Barham against the threat of invasion by Napoleon, who inspected his army at Boulogne on 15 August.
Finding James's occupation was very useful, as it led into his later career, ending as club keeper at the Guards Club from which he retired in 1822. I still know nothing definite about him from before 1804 or after 1822 - possibly 1827 as he's likely to be the Jas Austin witness at Susanna Sophia's wedding.
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The Tree you allude to on Ancestry is indeed mine. I am satisfied with my side back to William Morris born abt 1781 in Waterford, John Livingston and Abigail Doughurty as they are well documented in Newfoundland , and their descendants documented in Quebec. On the Canadian/Scottish Austin side, I am comfortable with Dr William Austin who married Sidney S Morris. They too are well documented in Ceylon and Quebec. However from there back ie Robert and Ms Copland is speculative to date as these people have been "lifted" off Ancestry, mainly through Ancestry's"potential parent". I am not subscribed to either Ancestry or Scotlands People so verifying these will probably have to wait until I have more time in the Australian winter. However there do not seem to be any connections to James in Kent.
The reoccurrence of names in this family is a challenge; I have 3 generations of William Morris, and the son of the third William and Mary Ann Austin [ Robert William Trevor Morris] had nieces on his wife's side whose father was yet another William Morris !
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I do subscribe to Ancestry currently, so if there's anything you want me to check let me know.
And I do use scotlndspeople occasionally, though I don't like it's payments through credits system, and its transcriptions of names are often very poor - I think they must be done by non UK natives. And I find Familysearch much more difficult to use since they `improved' it a few years ago - but the quality of those old transcriptions is so much better than Scotlandspeople!
The army service sheet for William Austin states clearly that he was born in Glasgow on 10 Feb 1790, so I'll try to look at the corresponding microfiche at the Sc Gen Soc in Edinburgh when I'm next that way. If his parents are Robert & Henrietta they were cutting it fine, having only been married on 30 Aug 1789 (acc. Ancestry tree).
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Many thanks for the offer. I am playing on Family Search now and have filled in some dates and places which all seem to fit together. I would certainly like to know what you discover about William in Edinburgh. Going through the family William wasn't the only child who had a short gestation period, and quite a few were born well before the parents' wedding.
My Ancetry Tree is" A Walker and Gilbert Tree" but I have noticed there is another which has the Scottish Canadian family in it which may throw some light on the clan.