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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: sgauntlett on Tuesday 01 September 09 21:44 BST (UK)

Title: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: sgauntlett on Tuesday 01 September 09 21:44 BST (UK)
This photo is of my Great Grandfather, Benjamin Cooke, born in 1874.

I'm trying to find some information about his military career but I can't find the WW1 record for him (there are other Benjamin Cookes but I know he was married in 1903 to Edith Clay so she or his children would be next of kin. Perhaps his record was destroyed?

Can anyone help me date or identify this uniform, the rank or anything? Given his DOB I suspect he served before WW1.

Thanks in advance.

Simon
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: ainslie on Tuesday 01 September 09 23:37 BST (UK)
Certainly an officer - style of uniform, including Sam Browne belt.  Rank is difficult, as he has no cuffs showing, where 1914-era officers would have badges of rank, nor are pips/ crowns evident on the epaulettes, as worn later in WW1.  Can you scan the cap badge for us?  That might give a clue.
No medals, which might have helped with the date.
There are medal index cards for 6 Benjamin Cookes on the National Archives docs online, but none is shown as an officer.
Has the family any medals?  Had BC any other names?
Officers' records should be at the National Archives, but I am no expert on that and someone who is will advise you.
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: scrimnet on Wednesday 02 September 09 00:52 BST (UK)
There is something about this pic....

Certainly WW1 period, as ainslie has pointed out...The chinstrap on his hat is also a pointer....it is narrow.

There are nil collar dogs, his Sam Browne looks like it has been "acquired" from a taller chap...The cross strap has been worn some 4 notches further down, and for some time. there is also something rather odd about his epaulettes.

"Wind up" jackets with rank on the shoulder were not unknown as early as 1915. Also the Guards did not wear cuff ranks at all...they always wore them on the shoulder.

His puttees, worn in a dismounted fashion look rather like other ranks rather than officers...

Nearly everybody in a position of repute in WW1 wore a uniform which would pass as an army one, from the Red Cross to even the Boys Brigade!!

I cannot make out the cap badge and if possible and as requested, a high def scan would help.

He may appear on the Army Lists of WW1, and he can be traced thus, also via the London Gazette: this is searchable on line. The Army Lists can be found in libraries and a number of Regt museums. If he appears on neither, he may well be one of the WW1 "paramilitaries"  ;)
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: sgauntlett on Wednesday 02 September 09 21:25 BST (UK)
Interesting.
I'm not aware of medals from this part of the family.

scrimnet, are you suggesting he was wearing this as "fancy dress" rather than for real? I know very little about this side of the family so anything is possible.

I have a slightly bigger image of his head but not really high def and I don't have access to the photo at the moment as it's with my parents.
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: scrimnet on Wednesday 02 September 09 21:57 BST (UK)
No I'm not suggesting fancy dress at all!! ;) ;D

There were many many groups that wore mil type uniforms...I'll check the badge  ;)
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: ainslie on Thursday 03 September 09 08:06 BST (UK)
Now we can see single pips at the top of the epaulettes, not at the outer end where they should be.  There is something at the outer end which I cannot recognise.
Could the cap badge be Army Ordnance Corps?
Buttons - look plain, with no badge.
Odd!
A
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: scrimnet on Thursday 03 September 09 09:16 BST (UK)
I am still leaning towards a WW1 Volunteer Unit (Home Guard type). This would explain dodgy rank stars (only oranges have pips!  ;D) and the fact that he doesn't look to have a very military bearing! I reckon this was taken just after the Volunteers were taken under the wing of the Line Regts...

Where was this chap living during WW1 and just before??
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: sgauntlett on Friday 04 September 09 09:53 BST (UK)
Now I’m really intrigued! Benjamin was born November 1874, married June 1903, Died in 1929 as far as I can work out with certificates and census records. Born around Newark, Nottigham, married in Swinton, Lancaster and died in Basingstoke.

So, he was definitely alive in WW1, guess he would have been in his late 30’s.

Are there any Home Guard records anywhere?
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: scrimnet on Friday 04 September 09 10:19 BST (UK)
It's not Home Guard as you would know it... ;)

This is a WW1 Volunteer unit I reckon...Have you an address for him in 1914-19 at all as this would help to tie in with the badge, and we can pin him down...?
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: sgauntlett on Friday 04 September 09 12:37 BST (UK)
I've found him on the 1911 census, living in Lewisham, London and occupation Master Tailor.

My grandfather, sadly deceased, was born in December 1912 - again Lewisham.

He didn't know much about his father though and was only 17 when Benjamin died.
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: scrimnet on Friday 04 September 09 12:55 BST (UK)
Well....x2 badges fit in with what we seem to have on his cap....

Wandsworth Volunteer Trg Corps

and Middx Volunteer Regt

Either could fit in here then..... ;D
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: sgauntlett on Friday 04 September 09 13:09 BST (UK)
Thats fantastic information scrimnet, thanks  ;D

Where should I go next to look at records and try and confirm Benjamin?
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: sgauntlett on Sunday 06 September 09 18:15 BST (UK)
Is there somewhere on the net where I can find pictures of the cap badges to compare for myself? I found a picture of the Middlesex badge on the internet which looked close but not exact in my opinion.

Are there any books or resources about the WW1 volunteers?

Thanks
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: scrimnet on Sunday 06 September 09 18:23 BST (UK)
The standard reference work is Kipling and Kings "Head Dress Badges of the British Army" in x2 volumes....But they cost a packet...Look on Amazon!!

If you have access they are K&K 1659 and 1666
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: colonel-m on Sunday 06 September 09 20:18 BST (UK)
Certainly not an officer in the regular army the puttees were worn by other ranks the officers would have worn knee high brown riding boots     too scruffy to be an RSM who wore officers tunic ...and he would have been older as most senior warrant officers of the pre war army were older long served soldiers...the badge is difficult to put to any unit.....officers badges were in black for that period..and collar badge were worn as well.....the pip if it is a pip is too high up on the shoulder s   having served in the ranks and got my pips up in the 70s....in the Army, and as a historian and former military collector, this is my subject..........the cap is not the officers srvice cap to hard and stiff the officers was a soft version with lower crown....and broader chin straps..also officers carried a cane.with a silver ball regimental patern..............warrant officers carried a pace stick which was larger than the officers cane.....cant date the period.......the uniform is ...~?????? more details please then I can help........can say further to this when soldiers had their photograph taken in a studio the ohotographer had props so the soldier coild show off to his girl friend this happened in the US civil war.....which made the looking for the mans unit and regt........difficult......have a collection of old photographs of old time uniforms of that period....in old plate on card..............sepia..........
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: scrimnet on Sunday 06 September 09 20:54 BST (UK)
Hello colonel m and welcome to RC and the AF board ;D

I'm afraid I will have to disagree with you on a number of counts there!

Only field officers wore riding /polo/field boots in WW1, all the subbies wore puttees (Capt's included!); the broad chinstrap did not come in for officers until well after WW1, indeed just before WW2!

Officers badges were bronzed...Rifle Brigade Regts (all ranks) had black badges; officers in WW1 DID wear stiff topped SD caps, The only ball topped canes I have seen are ORs walking out sticks...Silver topped walking canes for officers, yes....leather covered officers canes, yes....Embellished ball top Regt pattern sticks...errrrr...no ;)

I have several pics of officers, particularly on the General List without collar dogs...In fact some officers wore different cap badges and collar dogs....eg a certain double VC MO...

As for a prop pic...Certainly QRs of today, and certainly KRs of the period have a clause, and a civilian arrestable one to boot for "impersonating an officer" Look what happened to Percy Topliss in WW1!! Admittedly, he had something else to answer for from Etaples! ;D
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: colonel-m on Sunday 06 September 09 21:28 BST (UK)
no officers did wear boots but as officers had to buy kt not issued and so many were conscripted in many did not have the money or influence so yes many did wear puttees  but if not assigned to a unit the badge would have have been the coat of arms like the RSMs badge this was worn until the 60/70s as seen many in the Staff HQs especially in the Colchester Garrison as many staff were still the war time served and were not assigned to any unit. having the dres code for the Yorkshire Battlalion , and as a former officer the cap was barathea not serge for ORS. and officers from the victorian period to modern times are to have a regt tailor...who had to to follow the dress code for regts and corps.....all officers were given a book on dress codes for the day and evening includin the uniform..in my day if you could not afford the sword you went to the Adjt who issued with one the RSM usuall gave you sword drill for parades....Sandhurst is different today since the 70s, as mons finished and Sandhurst took over for all commissions. in my collection years ago had the regt officers cane with regt badge....now the household  cavalry officer have a silver topped cane as seen one at the funeral here...a Capt was carrying it in his dress service dress and others carried a regt riding crop.....yes badges were bronze  and some were black.....like the rifle regts the chaplains dept for one....for Northern Ireland in the 70s all badges were black for night patrols.....had many items in my collection including rare Celon planters uniform the badge were more than the uniform they were made of solid silver and the cap badge....the National Army musuem wanted it.....as they had no records of that unit or bades...that was an old boys club as most units were out there then....my Uncle Major Jack Barnard belong to the Burma forrest planters but went on to win the MC in Burma....
NOW IF YOU SEE MT OWN FATHER IN iNDIA AS AN OFFICER HE WAS THE MOST SCRUFFY OFFICER....
in the photographs he is wearing un orthodox uniform for the Indian Army as was the case.....as he never collected his medals I sent for them....and managed to get a cap badge of his unit in India....#
now to those photos have in my collection of old photos from the Victorian to WW1 all soldiers in a studio.. all posed.... the WW1 are the post card type ,the victorian are studio sepia type   including a large regt photo group....its the only thing I collect as it needs little space....yes had a victorian officer sword as well with bayonets of the period...but all gone now.....hate to say it but the cllection was mainly the German W2 period from SS to civillian stuff with medals knives sword etc.....used to be a civil war re-actor as well doing the shows and battles....
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: scrimnet on Monday 07 September 09 10:11 BST (UK)
Various WW1 hats for you Simon...to compare and contrast

Some from RC, some form my collections
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: scrimnet on Monday 07 September 09 10:14 BST (UK)
Thin chinstraps all round...Noel Chavasse (MC, VC and bar) is interesting as he wears the glengarry and badge of Liverpool Scottish, and the collars of the RAMC.
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: colonel-m on Monday 07 September 09 10:17 BST (UK)
Intrigued to know that photo in your box is it woodbine willy the padre who gave out ciggies to wounded troops in the front line....
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: colonel-m on Monday 07 September 09 10:31 BST (UK)
hullo yes it was common for other Officers of other Regts and Corps to wear the embelishments of that unit if it is an old classic one the Household Brigade the MOs wear the uniform of that unit but wear a cocked hat.....the Household cavalry Medical Officers are appointed by the Silver stick and the Colonels of both Regts...after a period then granted to wear the the uniform with the RAMC badges in.....Now when I was with the Army Cadets which was the Hampshire Regt I chose to wear my JIMMY on permission from the SIGNALS oFFICER IN cHIEF...LIKE mONTY WHO WORE TWO CAP bADGES TAKE THE AIRBORNE WHO WORE THE MAROON BERET BUT KEEP THE rEGT CAP BADGES...as that unit was a classic TA unit..he wore that with pride saw a programe on him by the Prince of Wales....if you served in the Scotish Regts if you wished you could wear the headress of that Regt with you cap badge....saw the jimmy badge( Royal Signals) in many types of regt headress....lots of things are coming back of old times gone to remind the soldier of former Regts....so sad that most of the county Regts gone.....hope this helps.....see recent posts to you....
Maurice.....  (ex Royal signals...Sig to Lt. )  1961-1970 then rebadged the Royal Hampshire..1980-84 in the Cadets (staff)
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: colonel-m on Monday 07 September 09 10:34 BST (UK)
almost forgot it was the Medical Officers who were given the privilage of wearing the headress as most of the other Corps were not around then Signals was formed in 1921 from the Engineer Signal Batallion
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: forester on Monday 07 September 09 21:23 BST (UK)
Hello Simon,

If I can get a word in  ::) a couple more local organisations for you:

Lewisham Defence League
Dulwich & District Defence League

I did see a reference to a Dulwich & Dist. Defence League Volunteer Training Corps cap badge, but unfortunately no picture.

Phil
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: millymcb on Tuesday 08 September 09 00:51 BST (UK)
There is a description of the Dulwich Defence Leage badge Phil mentions here... and the shape sounds similar.    www.glamorganantiques.co.uk/capbadges.htm

"The Dulwich and district Defence League.Later the 1st/12th battalion.On a shield crossed rifles with bayonets fixed.The scroll inscribed >Volunteers.Below the wreath the scroll inscribed "Defend our City".This was one of the regiments forming the Volunteer force of 1914 - 1919"

There are also a few pictures of other London Regt badges.... For exampke 10th London County (Hackney Regiment) is a very similar shape (shield, crown, scroll at bottom) but unfortunately the central detail is not quite right.


Milly

Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: millymcb on Tuesday 08 September 09 01:04 BST (UK)
Simon.....do you know if he had any brothers serving in WW1?  And have you looked for their records?  Sometimes (not very often!) they list brother as Next of Kin and if they are also serving it may have which regiment...

Just a long shot of course.

Milly
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: scrimnet on Tuesday 08 September 09 08:49 BST (UK)
Intrigued to know that photo in your box is it woodbine willy the padre who gave out ciggies to wounded troops in the front line....

This one??

(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l102/scrimnet/GWS-16Au8_5884bw.jpg)

No it isn't....He wears a civilian white collar....Dapper pre war style....
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: scrimnet on Tuesday 08 September 09 08:52 BST (UK)
There is a description of the Dulwich Defence Leage badge Phil mentions here... and the shape sounds similar.    www.glamorganantiques.co.uk/capbadges.htm

"The Dulwich and district Defence League.Later the 1st/12th battalion.On a shield crossed rifles with bayonets fixed.The scroll inscribed >Volunteers.Below the wreath the scroll inscribed "Defend our City".This was one of the regiments forming the Volunteer force of 1914 - 1919"

There are also a few pictures of other London Regt badges.... For exampke 10th London County (Hackney Regiment) is a very similar shape (shield, crown, scroll at bottom) but unfortunately the central detail is not quite right.


Milly



Close, but no cigar.... ;)

The one in the pic APPEARS to have a star with a shield or something in the middle, perhaps surmounted by a crown....
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: millymcb on Tuesday 08 September 09 20:13 BST (UK)
I would say definitely a crown on top, possibly shield and/or star shaped main bit in middle and probably a scroll of some kind on the bottom ;D ;D

Milly
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: sgauntlett on Wednesday 09 September 09 21:31 BST (UK)
Simon.....do you know if he had any brothers serving in WW1?  And have you looked for their records? 

Hi Milly,
Sadly, he only had sisters (five of them!) so not sure they would have been in WW1.

Thanks all for the comments and thoughts. I think I can assume that he is not regular forces but I'd like to think he was in a volunteer regiment, rather than just wearing a costume for a photo and my feeling is he looks about the right age for WW1 time.

I'll keep looking to see if I can find any records.

He did have a son though, and I know a bit more about Eric (my grandfather) in WW2.
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: millymcb on Wednesday 09 September 09 23:00 BST (UK)
I am sure he was wearing the uniform in some official capacity.

Not much problem identifying Eric's regiment from that picture I shouldn't think ;D

But ..I wonder if that is his Dad's Same Browne he is wearing...... It has a worn bit a little higher than he has it fastened.  That would be interesting wouldn't it?

Milly ;D

Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: sgauntlett on Wednesday 09 September 09 23:24 BST (UK)
I have one last WW1 family member I'd like some help with, as I've been so impressed with your information so far  ;D

This is Ernest Kemp, who I believe died in WW1. There are several E Kemps on the CWGC website but I can't work out which one he is. I can discount a couple as I know his parents were Thomas Henry Kemp and Minnie Blanche.

Any thoughts on his uniform, I know it's not much to go on...

Thanks so much.

Simon
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: forester on Wednesday 09 September 09 23:49 BST (UK)
If you know where he came from, his place of birth, enlistment and residence (though not always all three), can be cross checked on Soldiers Died in the Great War.

Phil
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: ainslie on Thursday 10 September 09 08:23 BST (UK)
The photo of the officer, labelled Eric Cooke, is of a captain in the Royal Artillery - three pips or stars on the shoulder, RA cap badge and collar grenades, RA buttons. The uniform is service dress - any period in 20th century.   Medal ribbons - not my forte.
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: scrimnet on Thursday 10 September 09 08:32 BST (UK)
You can also discount any that were killed prior to late 1915 as well, due to the uniform. The bandolier from the 1903ptn equipment was used by both infantry and mounted...
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: scrimnet on Thursday 10 September 09 08:40 BST (UK)
The photo of the officer, labelled Eric Cooke, is of a captain in the Royal Artillery - three pips or stars on the shoulder, RA cap badge and collar grenades, RA buttons. The uniform is service dress - any period in 20th century.   Medal ribbons - not my forte.

Just after the end of the war....

He has the 39-45 star and either the France/Germany star or the Italy star, most probably the Italy star. He has yet to get the ribbons for anything else, ie his War Medal, any other stars entitled to or also if entitled, the Defence Medal.
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: mmm45 on Thursday 10 September 09 08:46 BST (UK)
5 Ernest Kemps on SDGW all post 1915 Deaths.
2 Ernests
1 Ernest Harold
1 Ernest Nelson
1 Ernest Richard

Ady
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: scrimnet on Thursday 10 September 09 08:59 BST (UK)
Well....A lot of " ifs" here....but...

If he was married, lived in Nottingham and lost his tape, the one on CWGC that MAY fit him (of course there are several typo's and mis-spellings on there!) could well be this one...

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=305078
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: mmm45 on Thursday 10 September 09 09:06 BST (UK)
Edward James
Born West Malling Kent

Ady
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: scrimnet on Thursday 10 September 09 09:11 BST (UK)
Edward James
Born West Malling Kent

Ady

Ah well....

Note to self...Must shell out on SDGW  ;D
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: sgauntlett on Thursday 10 September 09 13:44 BST (UK)
Thanks again for all the responses, I feel like I'm hogging the whole forum!  :-[

Eric was indeed a captain in the Artillary, I have his service record so only really posted the picture as an interesting background to the original picture.

As for Ernest, I know he was in Portsmouth on the 1901 census but was born in Cheltenham, 1894. The family remained in Portsmouth so I assume he did too. The "knowledge" that he died "very young" in the great war is family rumour so I'm trying to find the facts.

Can't seem to find his service record on Ancestry either, as I know his parents names, I can discount many of the E Kemp entires.
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: mmm45 on Thursday 10 September 09 14:29 BST (UK)
I cant see an Ernest Kemp on the Soldiers Died database that has born Cheltenham.

Could he have died after discharge due to wounds after the Great War? or could he have been in a commonwealth army such as Canada?

Ady
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: scrimnet on Thursday 10 September 09 14:54 BST (UK)
It's not a Canadian uniform....There are too few buttons...Deffo a British one...:)


Have you tried Free BMD?
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: millymcb on Thursday 10 September 09 15:19 BST (UK)
Hi Simon,

Not sure if you are aware but Minnie died in 1904

Minnie Blanche KEMP    age 38    Portsmouth 2b 300     March Q 1904

And looking at 1911 census it appears that Thomas Henry is listed as married to Isabella Chambers Kemp age age 37 (b abt 1874). They appear to have a son Aubrey age 7.  Still with them are Charles Henry age 24 and Linda Blanche age 18. 


MARRIAGE March Quarter 1906   Portsmouth    2b   769
KEMP    Thomas Henry             
Smith    Isabella Chambers       


So when you are looking for Next of Kin/Parents on CWGC or Soldiers Died you should also be looking for Isabella as it was quite common to have the stepmother listed rather than the deceased mother.



Milly
 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: millymcb on Thursday 10 September 09 15:26 BST (UK)
also.......


Ernest is not living with them in the same household in 1911. Although there is an Ernest Kemp born Cheltenham 1895 age 16 living in Fareham, Hants which could be him. He is listed as being in the Military - so perhaps you are looking for a career soldier who had served at least 3 years before the start of the war. Perhaps he even died before the First War. You would probably find his regiment if you were to download the original  at www.1911census.co.uk (presuming he is the right chap of course)

Milly ;D ;D
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: sgauntlett on Thursday 10 September 09 16:20 BST (UK)
Great stuff Milly, I haven't had a chance to look at the 1911 for the Kemp family.
You're absolutely right, Minnie did die and Thomas Henry did remarry and have Aubrey (my family know Aubrey's children now) but I'd not thought about referring to his step mother.
I'll try Ernest in the 1911 to see if it gives his regiment and then try and find some records.

 ;D
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: millymcb on Thursday 10 September 09 16:23 BST (UK)
I hope he is the right one...Let us know what the census says won't you?

Milly ;D
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: mmm45 on Thursday 10 September 09 16:34 BST (UK)
SDGW is incomplete lots of lads who died after Nov 1918 are missed off it so CWGC is better for the 1918-1921 dates.I would cross reference with Free BMDs he may have died of Flu or wounds during these dates.If he died after Aug 1921 he wont be on CWGC.
The Fareham lad sounds promising.Ive had a look on Royal Marine Records but none fit his dates

Ady :)
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: sgauntlett on Thursday 10 September 09 16:39 BST (UK)
I really should be working...... :-[

Anyway, have downloaded the 1911 census return, definitely him, born in Cheltenham. Now need a handwriting expert to read the unit....
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: millymcb on Thursday 10 September 09 17:49 BST (UK)
Could it be Royal Field Artillery?

Milly
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: millymcb on Thursday 10 September 09 18:00 BST (UK)
And does that say 4 Depot above it?

Can you get to the page on the census that tells you where they were living?  It may have more details on it. I have never done it but I think there is a way without spending more credits

Milly
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: sgauntlett on Thursday 10 September 09 18:20 BST (UK)
Never knew that before but you are right! He is stationed at Fort Widley (which is really odd because it's not far from where my parents still live so I know it well!)

It even has his Commanding Officer although the scan is not very high resolution on the Census website and I'm not sure I can read this writing either!!
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: mmm45 on Thursday 10 September 09 20:37 BST (UK)
Major R Georghan RFA ?

still cant find an Ernest Kemp RFA death in war.Plenty of Medal Index Cards though.

Ady
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: forester on Thursday 10 September 09 21:01 BST (UK)
I go for Geoghegan, but can't find any officers of that surname in the MICs, so may have retired by then.

Phil
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: millymcb on Thursday 10 September 09 21:06 BST (UK)
Presumably at age 16 (in 1911) he would have been at Fort Widley for training (with 4 Depot) and would then have been posted somewhere else...

Milly

Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: forester on Thursday 10 September 09 21:09 BST (UK)
London Gazette, Issue 27796, 19th May 1905

Royal Horse & Royal Field Artillery.
Captain Robert Geoghegan to be Major...........

Not that that's really relevant  ::)

Phil
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: forester on Thursday 10 September 09 21:23 BST (UK)
There is an Ernest Kemp on FreeBMD, died Dec Qu 1916, age 22 in Epsom Reg District.

I can't see an obvious match on CWGC, SDGW or ODGW.

The Epsom area was home to a large number of hospitals, military or otherwise.

Phil
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: millymcb on Thursday 10 September 09 21:27 BST (UK)
I was wondering about that one too...he is the correct age so it could be him.    There are other Ernest Kenps born about that time so it could be one of them...


How does the picture of Ernest in Uniform fit with the RFA and dating?



Milly
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: forester on Thursday 10 September 09 21:55 BST (UK)
It looks pretty good to me.

This one was taken in 1915 at a UK camp.

Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: scrimnet on Thursday 10 September 09 23:13 BST (UK)
Just to clarify that Simon's chap has a 1915 economy jacket on that did not reach the troops until late 1915 or later depending upon the whims of the QMs...

"Stores are for storing ...if they were for issuing kit they would be called Issues"
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: sgauntlett on Friday 11 September 09 09:31 BST (UK)
Wow, a lot of information. So to summarise...

Benjamin Cooke "may" have been a volunteer in the Middlesex or Wandsworth volunteers during WW1.

Eric Cooke, his son, was definitely a Captain in the Royal Artillary, served in WW2 and lived to the ripe old age of 92.

Eric's wife's Uncle - Ernest Kemp was training at Fort Widley in 1911 for the Royal Field Artillery under Major Robert Geoghegan. He was photographed late 1915 and may have died in 1916.

Time for a death certificate I guess.  ;)
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: sgauntlett on Friday 11 September 09 12:00 BST (UK)
Oh and one strip is Lance Corporal, yes?
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: mmm45 on Friday 11 September 09 12:06 BST (UK)
Yes but in RFA he was probably known as Lance Bombardier.
If you do find he died whilst in Service between Aug 1914 and Aug 1921 and hes not on CWGC there are steps to get this rectified.
However we need to find evidence of his death first.

Good luck and keep us updated.

Ady :)
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: millymcb on Friday 11 September 09 20:04 BST (UK)
He was photographed late 1915 or later....


I think it would be interesting to see the 1916 death certificate to see what it says if you have the funds! At least we could discount that death if it is not the right person.


And if it is the right person and he died of a war wound of some kind - then as Ady says - he should be remembered by CWGC. (It would be good to find his grave if that is the case).


Milly
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: forester on Saturday 12 September 09 21:08 BST (UK)
Hello Simon,

I managed one of my rare, brief visits to Lewisham Library today.

I couldn't find anything to link Benjamin with any specific Volunteer unit I'm afraid. The most likely one, provided it was in Lewisham, is Volunteer Training Corps, South London Regiment, 8th (Lewisham) Battalion, "D" (Forest Hill and Lewisham) Company. HQ at 241 Stanstead Road, Lewisham. There were several others though. I looked at the 1917 Kentish Mercury which has a section devoted to volunteer organisations. Unfortunately it is Battalion Orders, so very few individuals are named; normally just the CO, Adj. and duty officers for the week.

I found a picture of the Lewisham Defence League badge and it is a circular enamelled (blue, red and gilt) badge, nothing like a military cap badge.

I also had a look at the directories and there is a Benjamin Cooke at 21 Brookbank Road, Lewisham in 1910 ( the earliest on the shelves). He is still there in 1917. There is no directory for 1918, but by 1919 he has gone.

21 Brookbank Rd is next door to the East London Industrial School for Boys (No.19), which was closed in 1909, although it is still shown as such on later maps. The Industrial School building was destroyed in WW2, while being used as a warehouse. It is at the railway end of Brookbank Rd (furthest from Hilly Fields) on the south side.

Phil
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: sgauntlett on Saturday 19 September 09 17:40 BST (UK)
Hi Phil,
Thanks for looking in Lewisham. They did live around there so it's likely to be him but shame no mention in the volunteers.

Regarding Ernest Kemp, I have just received the death certificate of the Ernest in 1916 in Epsom but I don't think it is my Ernest. This one lives in a workhouse and I know the family around Ernest were quite well off, unless he was disowned. The photo I have of him in 1915+ is with the family group so I'm fairly sure it's not him.

The search for Ernest's death continues. I guess I need to try and find the RFA records from that time and see if I can find any more information.

Simon
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: millymcb on Saturday 19 September 09 18:20 BST (UK)
That is a shame but at least you can discount him.  Perhaps he emigrated?

Milly
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: sgauntlett on Saturday 19 September 09 18:36 BST (UK)
Possible but the family rumour was death in the war so that is what I'm going on at the moment.

Even if I can't find his service record, I may find something in the regiment records don't you think?
Title: Re: Identify Military Uniform and date please
Post by: millymcb on Saturday 19 September 09 19:30 BST (UK)
If you are very very lucky but always worth a try

Milly ;D