RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: nelwild on Tuesday 01 September 09 13:01 BST (UK)
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hello,ive discovered from looking at the 1911 census that my ancestor William Spains partner was Lily Mathews born 1889 in Portsmouth.Also on the 1911 with them is their daughter Lily Spain,and Lily Mathews sister May,a general hawker born 1893 Southborough.Kent.The 1891 census tells me Lily and Mays father was William Mathews born 1866 Knaphill,Surrey,horse dealer,mother is Ann ??? born 1869 Maidstone.They also have a son Walter born 1887 Ealing,Hampshire.The family is living in a show???,think it says cart.Walter is a general dealer on the 1901 and living with his grandparents Charles Mathews born 1932,Steyning,Hampshire,horse dealer and Mary ??? born place unknown.Id very much like to find out more about this family,but so far this is all ive been able to come up with.if anyone can find the marriage,if they married,of william spain/lily mathews,william mathews/ann ??? and charles mathews/mary ??? id be really grateful.also any other census entries or wider info about this mathews family.I believe Mathews might be a Showfamily name,many thanks,nel.
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hello again,ive had another look through the census and found a Charles Mathews born place unknown,wife Mary born 1831,place unknown and seven children,all born place unknown living in travelling wagons.I think the daughter Phoeba married a licenced hawker called Henry Newlands j/a/s 1870 Tonbridge.They are in caravans on later census.Theyre son Henry born c1871,Ripley or Woking married Hannah Brazil born 1874 Kingston on Thames j/a/s 1890 Ticehurst.Back on the 1861 entry for Charles Mathews,they have with them an Alfred Aires born 1821 unknown,wife and two kids names not given,birthplaces unknown.To me,the surname on the actual image doesnt look like Aires,more like Davis or something like that.Im wondering if theyre related.If anyone can add to any of this,or recognises any of the families and knows if they had any history of marrying in to each other id be grateful,thanks,nel.
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:o Blimey, Nel; Steady on! Your posts there have my head spinning! And, no, I haven't been near The Book either. Didn't need to. You're on my ground here! 'Mind you; More questions than answers though ..... Where to start?
Mathews is a name known all round the central / south eastern counties. Brazil is an extremely well known one too. Same area. Same for Aires / Ayres what ever. So, ye've really got the look of three 'local' families turning up exactly where ye'd expect them there.
Unfortunately, I can't give ye any more on the inter marriage frame work because I'm not related so don't know. Once again, this is where I'd always suggest throwing it out onto the " Romany Jib " (or what ever it is) site. I've mentioned it elsewhere on here. It's more 'network' orientated that Roots.
Steyning? The only Steyning I know is in West Sussex. Just south west of Henfield. But it's still east of Worthing. Can't see how they made in Hampshire, as late as 1932. Wonder if I'm missing something? Just curious.
'Best of all' though, for me, is Ticehurst. One of mine was born there. The place seems about as synonymous with Gypsys as Appleby!
Sorry if I haven't exactly told ye anything, Nel. Only, I'll be about as interested to hear more on this one as you'll be. I'm especially intrigued by Ticehurst. Some sort of Mecca, in its day. I wonder why?
Vince ....?
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Hello Steve,many thanks for that.Ithink your right about the Romany Jib site,probabably better for chatting about family networks.Im hoping that a more skilled researcher than myself can come up with partners for some of the people ive mentioned,ive had a look myself but im not renowned for my researching abilities.I seem to have a knack of missing quite a lot.Im pretty excited about what ive discovered here as its off my home territory of Kent.My William Spain was a horse dealer,and he and Lily were living in Kent on the 1911,there daughter Lily was born at Clapham Hill,Whitstable, in 1911,not sure where that is yet,and the census doesnt say what their accomodation is.Ive recently found Williams grave in Whitstable cemetary close to my g grandmothers,i dont know how i missed it before as its an 8ft marble cross.Sorry ive digressed a bit.Im going to have another search for some of the partners to see if ive been true to form(night time refreshment doesnt help the old concentration).Theres a couple of other names in the Newland Family that im stuck on,the first being a possibility for Henry Newlands father and sibling,i believe its the 1851,could be the 61,Samuel Newland born 1827,Horsted Keynes,Sussex, traveller with ??? Newland b1847 Beeding Upper,Sussex and ??? Newland b1850,East Grinstead,living in carts.The youngsters are a girl and a boy,cant remember which is which but both would fit Henrys approx birth date.This Samuel is on the 1881 born Horsted,Cambridgeshire living with Charlotte Proudley and her two kids,shes a hawker,as is he.Ive also searched for Hannah(anna) Brazil,wife of Henry Newland,given she married at 16,the only option is the 1881,and the only possibility i can find is Joana(anna?) Brazil bi877 Hastings on 1881,daughter of William Brazil,flower hawker and roundabout proprietor and Maria Ripley.This family are in caravans on 1891/1901 with lots more kids but no sign of Joanna.I might start another thread for them.Sorry ive gone on a bit,i tend to get a bit carried away.If you want to disect any of this and discuss certain bits id be more than happy and would value any thoughts and opinions,speak to you soon,Nel.
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Clapham Hill, Whitstable, not sure where that is yet, and the census doesn't say what their accomodation is.
:) Ok, Nell, my rapid fire little fruit cake; I'm going to slow ye down by dint of chopping up ye breathless gush of information. That way, my head doesn't spin and you get some answers ;D
Clapham Hill, Whitstable, Kent. (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&source=hp&q=Clapham+Hill,+Whitstable&cr=countryIE&um=1&ie=UTF-8&split=0&gl=ie&ei=KpqeSr3YA8rD_gbC54juAg&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1)
See how nicely it's placed too? Just outside the main body of the town, where they won't bother, or be bothered by, the towns folk. But, close enough that it's only a quick spin to do some Hawking or what ever in the town anyway.
Their camp would likely have been on the side of the hill, overlooking that nice, handy old 'main' road too
Accommodation? I'd imagine they'd have had a wagon? I seem to recall that was in the time when most had. Wouldn't like to be quoted on that. But, I think so. I wasn't there, of course ;)
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I've recently found Williams grave in Whitstable cemetery close to my g grandmothers, I don't know how i missed it before as its an 8ft marble cross.
Aha! He didn't exactly leave them destitute then? Sounds like, as I suspected, he was a bit of a serious Horse Dealer. In which case, I'd say they almost certainly would have had wagons. Blimey; I can picture that camp right now! :P
(night time refreshment doesnt help the old concentration).
Tell me about it, Nel! I start draining glasses as soon as I've fed the Dogs and horses. This is why I'm capable of espousing such absolute drivel by around midnight! Always best to catch me earlier! ;D
Anyway, ever onwards. Let's take another look at hat ye have to say there .....
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There's a couple of other names in the Newland Family that I'm stuck on. The first being a possibility for Henry Newlands father and sibling. I believe it's the 1851, could be the 1861:
Samuel Newland. Born 182, at Horsted Keynes, Sussex. Said to be a traveller, in company with with (Forename illegible) Newland. Born in 1847 at Upper Beeding, Sussex.
Also with (Forename, again, illegible) Newland. Born in 1850, at East Grinstead. These three were living in carts.
The youngsters are a girl and a boy. I cant remember which is which (Not that that matters, as I can't work out what either of their names are, anyway) but both would fit Henrys approx birth date.
This Samuel (Who I've just snatched out of the air, to really mess with ye head) is on the 1881. Born Horsted, Cambridgeshire. Now living with Charlotte Proudley and her two kids. Charlotte's a Hawker, as is Samuel.
Ok. Ye 'not sure' if ye talking about the 1851 or the 1861 Census? Might be an idea to re check and make a note on paper. Even print off the pages. That way ye can hold one in each hand and glance from one to the other.
I do that. I find it a lot easier to retain my original thought, without clicking, loading, backing, loading, clicking ..... then finding myself wondering what in hell I was trying to achieve in the first place, half an hour ago.
Horsted Keynes? That, Steyning, Upper Beeding, East Grinstead. They're all within a neighbourly distance of one another. I wonder if your people ever met mine? My lot used to travel between Poole and Brighton, as a rule. Anyway, plenty of scope for these folk to come together as they travelled and worked that part of Sussex.
What's that 182 about? Your cock up, or mine?
Samuel; Man of mystery. He crops up just to throw a spanner into my perfectly oiled works, doesn't he? " Horsted, Cambridgeshire " ? Leave it out! Just so happens there is a bloody Horsted, in Cambridgeshire. But, I'll tell ye what though? I'm ready to bet he'd actually told the Enumerator " Horsted Keynes and the Enumerator thought he'd heard, " Horsted, Cambs ". Maybe one or the other of them were 'Well Oiled' that night too?
Now; Tell us more about Charlotte Proudly and so on ....?
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;) Stroke of luck here, Nel!
" JONES, otherwise PROUDLY COR/1/4/248 28 Jun 1918
Contents:
Jeanette, wife of Izaac, gypsy, no fixed abode, died at Chelwood Common, Maresfield, 70 "
Just this minute found that, perfectly by chance, whilst perusing the East Sussex Coroners Office Reports ~ as one does ..... Here. (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=179-cor1-ead_2&cid=-1#-1)
So, now ye know the Sussex Proudly's also used the name " Jones " :)
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Steve,many thanks for all this,where do i start?Sorry about the over enthusiasm,i do tend to spout a lot in one go.Ive had another look on the 1911,this time for Williams Father William George.Hes also at Clapham Hill,but his address is Ivy House,a dwelling of 5 rooms,so not very big.He still has his daughter Elizabeth with him,and a new partner Maud Mary ??? born 1878,Ramsgate.William jnr,wife,daughter and sister in law are at same address but entered seperatley from main dwelling,so its possible they were in a caravan.Lilys parents definatly lived in one,but William snr was in houses up to 1901.Whats curious is that he seems to start travelling about after 1901,and his Romany links seem to get stronger.His daughter Elizabeth married a third generation horse dealer from Swansea,so he had Welsh contacts,and William married Lily,a traveller from central southern england.William George does appear to have been successful at horse dealing,his memorial is the crying horse ive mentioned before.Im getting the feeling that as his reputation grew,so the travellers,always wary of outsiders,trusted him more.William Georges Father,also a horse dealer called William,seems to have had an even bigger reputation,as he was described as "a big jobber from Ramsgate" at William Georges horse theft trial at the old bailey in 1884.sorry,gone off on another tangent.Thanks for the Proudly tip.Im going to have another look at the census to see if i can find any partners,nel.
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Hyah, Nel. Please note; It's Way gone Midnight! ;D
In a concerted effort at damage limitation then, I'll try to control my own potential for 'Flux of the Keyboard' .....
They were in a house on that hill?! Damn! Shoots to sh!t my happy visions, doesn't it? Like ye say though, five rooms ~ especially with all those people ~ was no Stately Home at that time. Unless it was a Big, workers cottage? But such places don't usually get labelled 'House' ???
I'd suggest ye simply feed " Ivy House Clapham Hill, Whitstable " into Google. Check a ton or two of entries and see if anything happens. That's what I do.
For now though? Sorry. I can't even make out the little print this place shows me on ye regurgitated posts, below what I'm typing here. This is why I quote yeself back to me. So I can read it in bigger type face. Still looks like there's plenty to toss around though.
I Like conjecturing. Brain storm and kick a bunch of facts / Ideas around and see what repeatedly rises to the surface. What sinks. Never be afraid to be wrong. Never reject an idea as wrong. Burble. Burble, burble.
Christ, Nel. Am I burbling now? LMFAO! Told ye! Nel? Never feel the need to apologise for having Enthusiasm for ye subject! ;)
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Thanks Steve,ive put Ivy House in,but nothing found yet.Ive discovered that i can view the 1911 pages ive paid for more than once,which i didnt realise before,so ive had another look to see if ive missed anything.Ive discovered that William jnrs address is Pie Alley Farm,Canterbury Rd.Theres a couple of things on google about that,one is the whitstable title award schedule 1840 which describes it as a homestead amount 0.1.16,i take it thats the acres or hectares or something.Theres another discussion site which paints a picture of a somewhat ramshackle area.Ive also noticed on the 1911 that it says William and Lily had been married 4 years,and they lost a child before little Lily was born.Ive been unable to find any trace of a marriage for William Spain/Lily Mathews,but have found something else quite intresting.There is a marriage a/m/j 1907 Lily Mathews/William Brien, faversham,which is about six miles from Blean.Whats made me think is Williams Mothers name was Elizabeth O Brien or Brien,she didnt marry his Father.Do you think he may have used his Mothers name,did that sometimes happen?Also there is no marriage that i can find for William snr and Maud Mary,the 1911 said they had been together for ten years,and since he was still with Elizabeth O Brien in 1901 they must have been just about to part company for whatever reason.So i dont know if theres any way i can find out who Maud Mary was.Ive spent about five hours today going through census/marriage records trying to progress further with Lilys aunts/uncles,and have drawn a complete blank.I still only have Phoebes Henry Newland,ive a feeling theyre going to be really hard work.Im going to put out a few seperate posts and try GenesReunited to see if that gets me anywhere,speak to you soon,nel.
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It's getting a bit 'late' again, Nel. I had to go into town and now I'm no longer my best .....
Random thought or two: Ivy House. Did they live there long term? Or was it a wintering quarters? Is it possible to check that address for a census either side? See whose name comes up as in occupation.
If theirs is the only name given for that address when ye did find them? We have to accept they were living in the building, not pulled onto the surrounding ground. Otherwise it'd list 'Mr and Mrs Brown' as living there too, wouldn't it?
Pie Alley Farm? Same thing again, really. And it'd be acres. Metric wasn't used in those days. One and one sixteenth of an acre? Bit grandiose to call that a farm. It'd be a small holding. About the same size as my place. Barely sustain a horse on an acre.
If Billy boy was travelling, he'd want to get out of there shortly (Summer coming in as the census was taken) and get his horse ~ if he had one ~ out on the commons and verges. But, frankly? I've lost all track and have no idea whether we might suspect he was a Gypsy or not ???
One other thing sticks out here, to my mind, Nel; I'm having absolute murder keeping up with ye. Because every sentence seems to bounce around from one, vague, seemingly unproven, idea of a person to another. Ye carrying on like a ricochet in a names factory.
May I offer a few tips then, on how to make all this a little clearer to the observer? One thing that'd help a great deal would be the simple use of that long bar, down along the bottom of ye key board, after every "," or a "."
I know ye use punctuation. And I'd be the last person to even guess at whether it's used correctly or not. But, punctuation without spaces is hard on the eye. Ever see " Manhunter " ? Where Frances Dolahyde ('The Tooth Faerie') gets Freddy Loundes to read that statement? That's how ye stuff reads :-\
Paragraphs would be excellent too. Just hitting " Enter " twice, each time ye change subject. In fact, paragraphing would be sweet. I think it's that, more than anything else, which makes it such hard work to follow what ye saying.
See; I'm reading about maybe half a dozen people and places. But it's all flowing like a fast stream. No breaks. My mind just can't take it in. I can't separate ye points. That's why I, earlier, tried simply re typing virtually ye entire post. So I could absorb what ye saying.
This isn't supposed to be a lecture, Nel. I'm genuinely trying to helf ye to help us to help you. Basic comprehension ~ for us ~ of what ye saying would be a good start ;)
Then, I'd like to adopt a more proper and rigorous approach to the whole thing. Don't ye kick off by saying something like " One of my rellies, John Spain, was a Horse Dealer and married ..... " Something like that?
Okay. Let's begin again. What proof have ye got that this man was related to ye? Is he listed on a Birth Certificate he hold ....?
Come on, Nel. We've had a laugh. Now let's do this properly ;)
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Sorry Steve,youve got a point there.I tend to pour out my thoughts in one lump,reading it back does look confusing.
Now i know how to do paragraphs should help!
Im definatley related to these Spains.Since id started doing my tree id suspected for many reasons my g grandmother had Romany connections,ill detail why if you want.Her family was very difficult to find as she was illigitimate and spent all her life in Whitstable.Got her mum from birth cert,still dont know her father.
I then discovered from her mums birth cert that she was also illigitimate.That gave me her mother Susannah,no father,the census told me Susannah was born Margate 1852.This is where i was stuck for about two years until a rootschater revealed shed been abandoned in thanet workhouse along with two brothers.
Susannahs mother was Jane Elizabeth Spain.Janes father was John Spain,labourer/hawker born 1796 Margate.
Johns brother was Stephen Spain b1801 Margate,fish dealer/hawker.His son was William Spain,horse and scrap dealer,married Mary Ann Streeting 24/10/1854 canterbury,daughter of a travelling general dealer.
Williams son William b1862 Ramsgate married 1st Ann Ditton 1877 Canterbury very short lived 2nd Elizabeth O Brien not married.
William and Elizabeth have 2 kids Elizabeth O Brien and William Spain O Brien.Elizabeth married horse dealer Albert Grey in Swansea.
Ive found a marriage in Faversham near Blean for Lily Mathews/William Brien a/m/j 1907 which could be theirs.
The 1911 shows William,Lily and little Lily living with Lilys sister May Mathews,17,general hawker.The address is Pie Alley Farm,a small homestead near Whitsable.
im not certain the Spains were ever travellers,although they were believed to be descended from a group of Spaniards who were stranded in Thanet around the time of the Armarda,and their name wasnt originally Spain.Whats clear is theyre work brought them into contact with travellers,and marriages into travelling families occured,i have other examples of this.
The family im really intrested in at the moment is the Mathews.This is where i really need the help.At the moment i have Lily and two siblings,Lilys father William,mother unknown.Then 7 siblings and a father for William.
Will post more later,thanks,nel.
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;D Nel, that was absolutely bloody brilliant! Bravo!
I haven't even had a cup of tea yet. And yet I've been able to switch on. See that. Read and understand it all perfectly! Brilliant!
Now, I just have to sort myself and creatures out here and then I'll come back and have a ponder. I'm wondering where I may search for ye Mathews people, somewhere other than where ye've already looked yeself.
Internet's a big place. It can be hard for one person to cover all bases. I know I seldom come even near to it.
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??? This just caught my eye, Nel;
'24, June, 1869. Mary Ann MATTHEWS; Living in a travelling van passing through Bisley. Aged 6. Died of Scarlet fever and is now recorded in the parish register as having been buried there.'
Could Mary Ann have been a sibling to your man?
Found that Here. (http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~engsurry/bisley/burials.htm)
If precious little else, it certifies that there were Matthews Gypsys in the right area, at the right time ;)
Every little helps .....
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Ye haven't mentioned seeing this, Nel. On " Romanies Reunited " (http://romanygenes2.webeden.co.uk/#/census-18813/4527097234). Third of the way down, on the right.
They have a Henry Ayres, in his fifties and living alone in a tent. Then, bit below him, whole mess of Mathews', originating from Sussex but, obviously, travelling in Surrey a lot of late too. Having births there .....
And that Henry is living along side them. Possible clue to a connection?
:o Edited to include; That Matthews mothers name is Mary Ann! Put the ages together and what have we got? One of her first daughters would likely have been named after her.
And, might that daughter have died of Scarlet Fever .....
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Steve,many thanks for this,i hadnt seen this 1881 entry.Ive noticed the names Phobe,Annie and Lydia,these are names that stick in my mind from my research,so that could be significant.
Also,ive noticed the Gerbdns(unusual name) stopping with them are from Maidstone,as was my Williams wife Ann on 1891.I wonder if that could be significant.
There is a Henry Ayres born 1830,Graywell,Hants with wife Hannah on 1871,wonder if thats him.On the 1851 theres a small colony of people staying at a place called The Camp in Longparish,Hampshire,mostly basketmakers and chairbottomers,one of them is Henry Ayres born 1828 Greywell,that could be him.Theres also an Alfred James Ayres there,but born 1848,but could indicate a family name.
Im going to have another trawl round then ive got a bit of shopping to do,will be back after that.I will say i normally get quite refreshed on a friday evening,so if im still on after 9.00pm and begin to make even less sense than usual youll know why,speak to you later,nel.
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;) It's starting to look good, Nel. Plenty of 'smoke'. Could be a fire in there somewhere.
Just bare in mind; This is all just 'brainstorming'. Digging things up and chucking them on the pile. But, once one starts getting recurring names and themes? I always consider it worth a damn good thrashing. Even then, I keep bits of paper with it all jotted down. One never knows when sifting through such stuff can throw up a blinder, even years down the line.
Right now, I'm just waiting for my mate to get here. Then we're off out. I'll be back rather later and shall be, I assure ye, " Refreshed as a hand cart "! ;D
Let's not expect too much from each other tonight .... :-X
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Hello Steve,hope you had a good evening,just about recovered from mine now.Ive discovered a few more things since we last spoke.
Whilst out and about clearing my head on Saturday,i found myself near Whitstable,and decided to take a look at the Clapham Hill area.The start of Clapham Hill has a number of large and imposing properties,no sign of an Ivy House though.Past these,it turns into the main Canterbury Road and becomes very rural.About a mile along is a crossroads,the left hand one being Bog Hole Lane,just in there a small collection of semi-derelict farm buildings,old cars and an MOT garage.On the gate hangs a handpainted sign saying Pie Alley Farm.
On the other side of the crossroads is Pie Alley Lane, on one corner is the remainder of the farm buildings,converted into small industrial units.And intrestingly,on the other corner,a small travellers plot with a couple of chalet style bungalows,a large trailer,couple of 4x4s and a flat bed truck etc.I had to wonder if thats anything to do with the Spains/Mathews.
Then had another look round Whitstable cemetary and discovered that Lily was buried in the same grave as her husband,and died in 1962,10 years after he did.Behind them is the grave of Phylis Thora Spain 1914-2001,could be an unmarried daughter or daughter-in-law.Next to them is Lily Hubble 1910-1994.Their daughter Lily was born 1910,and theres a marriage for Lily Spain/Donald C Hubble Elham j/a/s 1937.
Couldnt find Donald Hubble on 1911,but intrestingly on 1901 theres a Walter J Hubble born 1863 Yelding,Kent,groom(horse dealing),living next to a horse dealer.A possibility for his Father.
Ive also checked the 1911 to see what Lilys brother Walter was up to then,and it made very intresting reading.
The reg district is Guildford.
First person on page is Walter James Nunn,1 month,born Staine,Middlesex.
Then Henry Vinson,58,basketmaker,born Dorking,Surrey.
Rhoda Vinson,54,hawker,born Eastbourne,Sussex.
George Vinson,25,basketmaker born Holmwood,surrey.
Mary Ann Vinson,23,basketmaker born Walton on hill,Surrey.
Rhoda Vinson,17,basketmaker born Redhill,Surrey.
Alfred,11 months born Mitcham.
Under them is Walter Mathews,24,hawker born Ealing,Hampshire.
Edie or Lily Mathews,27,hawker born Herne Bay,Kent.
I first thought it looked like Edie,but it could easily be Lily.
Theres a marriage in Camberwell for a Walter Mathews/Lily Annie Nunn j/f/m 1909.I think Camberwell is Surrey.
For number of rooms in dwelling its got x then 4 crossed out.
The declaration signature is P McDonald,Registrar.On previous ones ive seen its been the occupant.
Postal address:Commercial Road,Woking.
Names of Head of Family or Seperate Occupier:Police schedule.then postal address is a one word scribble which is completely impossible to read.
Im wondering what this means,particularly the police reference.Could it be some sort of eviction,or maybe they were in custody.Whats also very intresting is theres an identical entry on the 1911,the only difference being it says institution instead of household.Id initially assumed this was someone else.I wonder if thats him too.
I cant find a Lily Nunn born Herne Bay on any earlier census.I was wondering Steve,does your book reveal Nunn to be a traveller name?
I also cant find a trace of these Vinsons anywhere else.Would you know if Vinson is a recognised traveller name?
Im going to post some seperate threads on some of this to see if that gets me any further,back later,nel.
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'Morning, Nel. (Or, at least it is to me). Just like to give ye some snap answers to a few things there.
" Nunn " ? Not recorded. But, " Nunns " crops up. But it's later and short lived. 1846 - 1973. London and Surrey. How tantalising a glimpse is that?
" Vinson " ? Only one entry. Staffordshire. and, Bob does point out that a single entry is likely dodgy as all hell.
As for ye trip around Clapham Hill; That's just fantastic! God, I wish I could've come! I love things like that ;D
Ye could go and see those Gypsys. Fact that they have a place there suggests they're 'locals'. Descended from the families that always used to travel the area.
And, even if they're not directly matched in names, I'd bet they'll know a whole lot about who did stop around there.
Hey, ye never know; Imagine getting to chat with them and discovering they were direct descendents of ye own people? Ye'd have ye own, living Gypsy rellies ;)
Like that, wouldn't ye? ;D
If ye call by, just watch out for the terriers. They'll almost certainly have a terrier or three about the place, and they may not be chained back. Little buggers tend to get ye in the ankles as ye leaving! LMAO! I speak from much experience. I have one myself and she does that too :-X
Now, I've got to sort my Dogs out. And I've just got my membership number / Password for the Sussex Family History Group. Joined, on line, with the plastic. One o'clock in the morning. Now I'm in! So, I'm all set to burn the oil plundering their on line, huge data bases of names, baptisms, burials and god knows what! I have Gypsys of my own to hunt, in Sussex ;D
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Morning Steve,id be very intrested if any of my names crop up on your new site.
Also,Sharon on here has suggested i look for Vinsen/Vinson as this is a well known Hampshire name.
I will go and see the travellers at Clapham Hill,and your right,id be over the moon if they turned out to be direct descendents.There didnt seem to be anyone about when i was there,but as you say several dogs running about in the yard.
I was wondering if you had any thoughts on this police schedule business,what that could mean.
Speak to you soon,nel.
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No experience of the Police Schedule, Nel. What time they stop for tea?
Maybe Census and Resource Discussion (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,145.0.html) would be the place to ask? If not, I'm sure it'll soon get shifted to where ever.
Regards the people on that site? No worries. They're just practising the ancient, Gypsy art of 'Invisibility' ;)
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Thanks Steve,ill put a message there,nel.
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8) Sorted! Look. (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=404746.new#new)
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Thanks Steve,that explains it.
Do you think the Vincent family with them is likely to be related?Walter James Nunn,who im assumings their son,is listed seperatly first,then the Vincents,then Walter Mathews and Lily.
Ive got Henry Vincent on 1881 now,but cant find a marriage so dont know who Rhoda was.
My own feeling is that such a small grouping together are likely to be related in some way,but the lack of documents makes it really difficult,nel.
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Hard for me to conjecture, Nel. For a start, I'm not looking at what you are, see? I have a vile 'connection' and so can't just flick open a census and have a blimp.
Vince Smith would be ye man on such finer detail. Ye dealing with 110% Romany Gypsys here. My people 'Travelled as Gypsys', but I'd be damn wary of pronouncing them Romany. I'm perfectly open about saying they were of a 'lower class'. So, what I know might not relate to the more structured ways of the type you're handling. Does that make sense ???
Saying that; I believe there was (is) a tendency for 'friends' to stick together. And these friendships often amounted to extended families anyway. The ultimate person to tell ye would be someone directly connected with one of the families ye dealing with but, like Vince, still with their finger on that pulse.
Every bugger I ever had to turn to has died out now, see? So I'm really in much the same boat as you. Scratching about for old links and clues :(
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Thanks Steve,ive had some contact with Vince,he told me the Vinsons were Vincents,ill try and contact him again,nel.
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Hiya
Gerbdns on the census is actually a spelling mistake and it is Yelding, there is a Joe Yelding whom Phoebe Matthews Married in around 1855. They had a daughter Mary Anne Yelding.
Hope it helps
Lorraine
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Nel; Curiously, I've just blown straight back in here from having a blimp at Journey Folki Forum (http://www.journeyfolki.org.uk/Forums/tabid/690/language/en-US/Default.aspx). (I trust that link'll work for ye?)
Lo and behold; There's a guy on there trying to trace some Mathews'. Not sure his lot match to yours. But maybe ye could link up with him?
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Hello Nel
I think the Lilly Spain your on about is my grandfather Tom Matthews sister.
And the name Lilly Spain is on his marriage certificate as a witness.
There father is Walter/William Matthews. We’re trying to find out more about them.
My grandfather was Tom Matthews, he had a brother Walter, and sisters that I know of May, Lilly, Janette/Francis/ and there might be a rose and Esther could be even more were trying to track them all down