RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Cornwall => England => Cornwall Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Roadshow on Tuesday 01 September 09 11:14 BST (UK)
-
Hi all,
I am helping my friend with his family tree and despite the wealth of information for Cornwall online, this character has me absolutely stumped. I wonder if any of you might be able to help solve this mystery for us.
We have located him on the census for 1901, 1891, 1881, and 1871, and also his marriage on the Cornwall OPC site. On the census his place of birth is recorded as Week St Mary, Cornwall. The Census suggests his birth is 1828/9, but his marriage suggests 1830/31.
The Cornwall OPC transcription of his marriage is:
29 Nov 1863 - Madron, Cornwall - John Broad Read, 32, widower, labourer, Penzance, father William Read, labourer, to Mary Jane Thomas, 28, widow, of Madron, father Thomas Olds, Cordwainer, by Banns, he signed, she made her mark, witnessed by John Richards and Fred A Cocks
So giving us a father William Read.
However, the only near-suitable baptism I can find in St Mary Weeks is of a John Broad on 12 Oct 1827, s/o William and Mary
I cannot find any other instances of the name John Broad Read, nor can I locate a marriage linking the names Broad and Read.
I am really stuck.
Any help in locating his birth, family, first marriage or appearance on the 1841, 1851 and 1861 census would be very much appreciated.
Thank you.
-
Hello Roadshow
Like you, I can't find a John Read that fits the bill before 1871.
I do wonder whether we should be looking for a John Broad instead.
I note that he consistently gives his birthplace as Week St Mary and that on a couple of the censuses he is noted as a Stone Labourer or similar.
Looking at the 1851 census there is a family in St Teath with a suitably aged John Broad born in Week St Mary - parents William and Mary. William and John are both shown as Stone Sawyers. The ref is HO107 1898 f 276 (NB check the index for Bread rather than Broad!).
No idea at the moment why he should have added Read onto his name but I think it would be worth checking him out in the other censuses.
Barbara
-
A couple of exrta items to think about!
There is a John Broad married to Elizabeth in St Teath in the 1861 census.
Free BMD has:
Marriages Mar 1854
Broad John Camelford 5c 35
Chapman Elizabeth Camelford 5c 35
Copp Robert Camelford 5c 35
Miller Maria Camelford 5c 35
Deaths Dec 1862 BROAD Elizabeth Camelford 5c 12
Cornwall OPC site indicates
Elizabeth Broad aged 29 buried in St Teath 15 Dec 1862 residence Medrose.
Have to go out soon but will check further a bit later.
Barbara
-
Hello Roadshow
Like you, I can't find a John Read that fits the bill before 1871.
I do wonder whether we should be looking for a John Broad instead.
I note that he consistently gives his birthplace as Week St Mary and that on a couple of the censuses he is noted as a Stone Labourer or similar.
Looking at the 1851 census there is a family in St Teath with a suitably aged John Broad born in Week St Mary - parents William and Mary. William and John are both shown as Stone Sawyers. The ref is HO107 1898 f 276 (NB check the index for Bread rather than Broad!).
No idea at the moment why he should have added Read onto his name but I think it would be worth checking him out in the other censuses.
Barbara
Ah, how clever to think John B Read might be transcribed as John Bread!
Now this is interesting, because the family you have identified is the family who had the child John Broad I described in my original post. They also had a child Melony/Mellony and I had done searches using her name too, in the hope of spotting if this was the right chap, but of course she was also wrongly transcribed.
It strikes me that if you were John Broad and somebody seeing it written had believed you were John Bread, it might not be beyond the realms of possibility that they might think you were John B Read? And asking what the B stood for, Broad, you'd become John Broad Read. I know it's stupid, but it has a certain appeal.
The marriage is appealing too, but how to be sure it's our bloke? I've found it (or at least the banns) on the Online Parish Clerk site, which gives date 12 Feb and their residence as St Teath, but no names of parents or witnesses.
Many thanks for the assistance thus far.
-
Hi again
Well. I had't thought of B Read converting to Bread! I just considered that the man might have originally been John Broad :)
What do you think about the marriage I found to Elizabeth Chapman and her death on 1862?
Barbara
-
Hi again
Well. I had't thought of B Read converting to Bread! I just considered that the man might have originally been John Broad :)
What do you think about the marriage I found to Elizabeth Chapman and her death on 1862?
Barbara
Sorry, was editing my previous post and you had already responded. The marriage looks good, I'll try and persuade my friend to order a copy certificate.
It is just having READ tagged on the end of the name that casts doubt. Where the hell does it come from?
-
I had thought that perhaps John was born before the marriage of his parents. Not sure whether that fits in this case.
I can't see a marriage of a William Broad to a Mary Read on Cornwall opc or on the IGI. However the 1851 census indicates that Mary was born in Devon so maybe the marriage took place in her parish?
Barbara
-
I had thought that perhaps John was born before the marriage of his parents. Not sure whether that fits in this case.
I can't see a marriage of a William Broad to a Mary Read on Cornwall opc or on the IGI. However the 1851 census indicates that Mary was born in Devon so maybe the marriage took place in her parish?
Barbara
The place of birth is given as North Petherwin, which is covered by the Cornwall OPC, but which doesn't seem to have doumented marriages prior to 1837. So I think that is a dead end for now.
-
This is probably just pouring confusion on already muddied waters, but there is a non-conformist baptism in North Petherwin in 1836, transcribed by the OPC as follows:
Baptisms (Non Conformist) - Details of record ID 25924:
Kilkhampton Wesleyan Circuit
28-Feb 1836
at Canworthy Water Chapel
William Reed BROAD
2 Feb 1836
s of
William
Mary
North Petherwin Devon
labourer
Not sure that gets us anywhere, but it is another person with the names linked, all be it in the reverse order.
-
I now have the two potential marriage certs in front of me.
The 1854 marriage to elizabeth chapman, has John Broad, a quarryman, son of William Broad, quarryman
The 1863 marriage to Mary Jane Thomas has John Broad Read (widower), labourer, son of William Read, labourer.
So I don't think that provides any help in linking them together.
However whilst the 1841 census has a few possible hits to choose from, running a search of ancestry with the terms John Broad Read born 1827-31 came up with just one good hit for 1851 and 1861, the family you had already identified. I have located them in 1841 and their son John is not at home, so could be any of the other 1841 hits.
I am becoming convinced that we are on the right track, but how do we explain the father's name on the certs being different? It would be very helpful to locate the marriage of William Broad (or Read!), born approx 1806 and Mary, born approx 1811, but so far I have had no luck.
-
Hello again.
I have had another look at this and I agree we need to find the marriage of William and Mary. I will try to check some more Cornwall records next week - unless anyone else comes up with the marriage in the meantime!
Barbara :)
-
Thanks Barbara, I have spent so much time staring at the screen trying to solve this mystery, it would be marvellous to find an answer. It seems tantalisingly close, and yet without that marriage is nothing but guesswork. I guess that is why researching these folk is such good fun.
-
Some good news for you :)
Marriage
William Broad and Mary Reed 3 April 1827 North Petherwin
So that gives us a Broad/Read(Reed) connection.
These children were baptised to a William and Mary Broad in Week St Mary
John 12 Oct 1827
Mary Jane 18 Oct 1828
William 7 Jan 1830
Grace 20 Nov 1831
Mary Jane 3 Nov 1833 (I assume the earlier Mary Jane died)
Mallony 16 Nov 1834
Also
Luxulyan Circuit Bible Christian baptisms
Thomas son of Wiilliam Broad and Mary Reed 5 March 1837.
As you will see John's baptism is 6 months after the marriage of William and Mary. I wonder if he was actually born before their marriage? This could explain his use of the surname Read in later life.
These records come from a transcript so no more details are given. The actual baptism record might give you a birth date for John and should certainly give you the occupation for William. Might be worth paying for the Cornwall Record Office in Truro to get a full transcript for you?
Hope this gets you a bit further!
Barbara
-
Barbara I could kiss you! After all this time and effort this feels like winning the pools. Thank you so much for coming through for me. My friend and his mum will be thrilled when I tell them that we have unlocked this family mystery.
They told me that their family once was Broad-Read and that there had been a schism leaving Broads and Reads separately. With the info we now have, I think it is safe to hazard the guess that the split came when John Broad-Read remarried, leaving behind the children from his first marriage, at least one of whom wound up in the workhouse if memory serves.
Guess I have some work to do now, pulling it all together for them, then taking a proper look at his parents.
Thanks again, you are an absolute star ;D
-
Glad this has helped your friend's research progress.
Let me know if you need any more help :)
Barbara