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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Somerset => Topic started by: astley7 on Monday 31 August 09 10:50 BST (UK)

Title: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: astley7 on Monday 31 August 09 10:50 BST (UK)
I have been to the RO but no luck trying to find The Father of George Carter B 1831 Paulton Married Mary Ann Badger Merthyr Tydfil  It states Jacob Carter as his father but which one ? so many around the same time and same names. Any information gladly recieved. Thanks for all that helped in my last posting. help outstanding.
Best wishes
Lisa
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George Carter 1831 Paulton
Post by: Necromancer on Monday 31 August 09 11:01 BST (UK)
There's 2 Georges* c1829-1831 b Paulton with Fathers Jacob and BOTH are Coal Miners .... What occupation is shown on the Marriage Cert, does it match ?

The 1831 chap would seem the best bet, is his age consistant throughout the source records you have ?

Could try following the other one to check later events ?



* Source 1841 Census

Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: krisesjoint on Monday 31 August 09 12:51 BST (UK)
Hi Lisa,

Here are the two marriages

CARTER Jacob = HOOK Martha 27 Feb 1814 Paulton
CARTER Jacob = GULLIFORD Sarah 25 Dec 1826 Paulton

Both Georges are in Paulton in 1851. (seems little between them in age at this time)  Looks like the other George is in Paulton in 1871. (Wife Mary SNOOK)  He has a daughter Martha - perhaps a clue.

Cheers Kris  :)

Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: krisesjoint on Monday 31 August 09 13:04 BST (UK)
To avoid any duplication, here is the Link to Lisa's other Carter thread

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,401090.0.html

Kris  :)
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Trees on Monday 31 August 09 13:10 BST (UK)
past master where have you found a son of jacob 1831???
I have one bap Dec 25 and one bap Dec 30 both in 1827
I have one in 1831 son of john and Amy nee Bull follow the main chase on the other topic
Both Jacobs had daughters called Martha!! so its not surprising that both Georges do too neither appear to have a Sarah
Trees
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: RayDen on Monday 31 August 09 14:36 BST (UK)
Pastmaster

Am I right in thinking that your source for the 1831 birth is the 1841 census?

On the 1841 census Jacob/Sarah's George is shown as 10 years old giving an 1831 birth, however he was baptised 25 Dec 1827.

Ray
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Laura75 on Monday 15 December 14 15:26 GMT (UK)
I've just come across all this information and it's both interesting and highly confusing.

Jacob CARTER = Sarah GULLIFORD are my third great grandparents.

I'm trying to find his parents and was hoping that I'd find a connection using his other children. Turns out that all the George Carters and the second Jacob Carter have made it very tricky to clear up.

Jacob and Sarah had four children, George, Martha, Ann and Mary.

Mary is my second great grandmother.
Ann didn't marry (to the best of my knowledge)
Martha married James Tucker, no children

George was the only other one to have children, and therefore, hopefully, descendants with information on the family.

But I really can't work out if all the children I've given him are the correct ones. As far as I can tell, everyone here is researching the son of Jacob and Martha HOOK.

Any thoughts or other leads? Thank you.
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Trees on Monday 15 December 14 20:31 GMT (UK)
Oh dear I had Jacob and Sarah Guiliford having 7 children I think we need to consolidate information
I have:
Jacob Carter born about 1801 Paulton m Sarah Guiliford Christmas Day 1826
137   25 Dec 1826
   Jacob   CARTER      otp   Bachelor
   Sarah   GULLIFORD   otp   Spinster
Wits:   Benjamin   BRIMBLE   John   ASHMAN   Banns; additional witness: Charles SYMES Clerk
1841 census HO107 / 939 / 18 fo51 p11
with
George      10
Ruth      10   
Sarah      7   
Martha      1   
Mary      3   

1851  HO107/1939 fo165 p48
with
George 23   
Mary    14    
Martha 10    
Ann 6   

1861 RG9 / 1679 fo 171 p21 sch 112
Buried:
 Jacob Carter buried July 11th 1868 Age 69 years

Children in Paulton
GEORGE
850   25 Dec 1827   George   M   Jacob   Sarah   CARTER      Paulton   Collier
possible marriage
CARTER George  SNOOK Mary Camerton, St Peter Bath C66/1/257

HENRY
No baptism found but this marriage sugests Henry was alp a son
114   25 Dec 1848
   Henry   CARTER   full age   Bachelor   Collier   Paulton   Jacob   CARTER   Collier
   Keziah   DANDO   20   Spinster      Paulton   Thomas   DANDO   Collier
Wits:   Jacob   CARTER      Elizabeth   MAGGS

RUTH
1045   26 Dec 1830   Ruth   F   Jacob   Sarah   CARTER   Paulton   Collier
209   22 May 1860
   Thomas   HEW   full age      Bachelor   Mason   Paulton   Thomas   HEW   Pensioner
   Ruth   CARTER   full age      Spinster      Paulton   Jacob   CARTER   Collier
Wits:   William   INGS   Mary   CARTER      Banns
SARAH
1302   25 Dec 1834   Sarah   F   Jacob   Sarah   CARTER   Paulton   Collier

MARY
1538   04 Nov 1838   Mary   F   Jacob   Sarah   CARTER   Paulton   Collier

MARTHA
28   Sep 1840   Martha   -   Jacob   Sarah   CARTER   Paulton   Collier

Ann
283   28 Jul 1844   Anne   F   Jacob   Sarah   CARTER   Paulton   Collier

1881 Sarah is with her daughter Ruth RG11/2427 fo157 p17 she died in Litton. Sarah Carter Litton formerly Paulton buried December 23rd 1884 Age 82 Years
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: RayDen on Monday 15 December 14 20:35 GMT (UK)
Hi Laura

Welcome to Rootschat.  Ah the Carters of Paulton!!!  It is very difficult to get any real firm evidence on the Carters particularly the Jacob/Sarah & Jacob/Martha lines.  My line is through the George Carter who married Mary Ann Badger in 1861 in Neath.  After some intense investigation I eventually decided that this George was more probably from the Jacob/Martha Hook line rather than the Jacob/Sarah Gulliford line.  My decision came from a considered liklihood rather than positive evidence.

My reasoning to support the Jacob/Martha line is:

In 1861 census  the George born to Jacob/Sarah was living with his parents (name shown as Caster rather than Carter) in Bloomfield, Paulton.

However I just feel that the George who married Mary Ann Badger would have been in Wales at that time.  Son John Henry was born 1 May 1862 so must have been concieved about August 1861 (in Wales) where Mary Ann was living and where George and Mary Ann were married October (in Neath).

John Henry was born in Withy Mills Paulton (june 1862, I have the certificate).  Withy Mills was where George's Father (jacob) & brother Henry were living with married sister Keziah in 1861.

I think the birth of John Henry in Withy Mills and a brother of George being named Henry leant me towards the Jacob/Martha line.

None of George/Mary Ann's children were named Sarah and the only Martha was a Mary Martha born in 1874.

There are numerous forums on Rootschat about the Carters of Paulton.

Hope this is of help

Ray
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Laura75 on Monday 15 December 14 21:48 GMT (UK)
Thank you Ray and Trees!

I've only been following the Carter / Gullifords of Paulton for a week. Two weeks ago my father showed me his Grandmothers marriage certificate, complete with her fathers name on it. Breakthrough! But all it did was lead to all these Paulton Carter's.

Trees, you say that Jacob/Sarah possibly had another son, Henry, based on his marriage certificate. He marries a Keziah. But is this the same Henry / Keziah that Ray is also speaking of?

Thank you for the information on the 1841 and 1881 Census, I'd not seen that before.

Thank you, also, for Ruth. I didn't know about her.

I knew that Jacob/Sarah had a Christmas wedding (188 years next week, congratulations!) but hadn't seen the Witnesses. That's added to the potential mystery of Sarah's background. I think John ASHMAN might be her Grandfather. I need to find people who are researching Jacob/Sarah. 

I'm assuming it'll be practically impossible to get back further with Jacob Carter, given that there are two of them, and being so similar? Family History is a new endeavour for me. :)

Ray, I've read another of older (2009) thread on the Paulton Carters. I'll have a look for others. Thanks for tip.

I'd better remove the BADGERS from my tree!
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Laura75 on Monday 15 December 14 22:10 GMT (UK)
I have learnt, however, that FH keeps you up past your bedtime, and sometimes with excellent results.

I had to add Ruth CARTER to my Ancestry Tree, even though she's not really going anywhere! Then, well, I couldn't help but follow a hint, I mean, you have to, right?

There, on the 1881 Census, is 10 year old Edward J HAWKINS, my Great Grand Uncle. I'm SO happy, I had no idea what happened to him when his parents died. My Great Grandmother was shipped off to her other Aunts, Martha and Ann CARTER, but I'd never even heard of Ruth!

Thank you SO much Trees, you've made my day! :)
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: RayDen on Monday 15 December 14 23:33 GMT (UK)
Good luck with your search Laura.  Pity you don't have the Badgers in your tree, now that is a family with intrigue!! Here is a very long forum on our Carters:  http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=401090.0

Ray
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Trees on Tuesday 16 December 14 09:49 GMT (UK)
With all the Carters around having children of the same names it is difficult to keep track of them all. I think the Henry Ray mentions is the Henry son of Jacob and Martha born 1841 he is with his father in 1861 RG 9/1679 fo117 p34 while the Henry I think is son of Jacob and Sarah is with his wife in 1861 RG 9/1679 fo148 p24 Jacob and Martha had a daughter Keziah in 1826
Both families marry into the Dando family just to add to the confusion! :-\   fun isn't it? :D

Jacob who married Sarah Guliford was born about 1801 he is on the 1841,1851 and 1861 censuses
(their Henry? born 1829 married Keziah Dando)

Jacob who married Maria(DANDO) was born 1809 son of Edward and Hester he is on 1841,1851 and 1861 (Their daughter Elizabeth married a Charles DANDO and Jacob's sister Grace married Benjamine Dandoi)
Jacob who married Martha Hook was born about 1787 he is on 1841,1851 and 1861 censuses
(luckily not a Dando in sight ...yet)

Ask if you want the census numbers etc


Hello again Ray I thought we had put the Carters in the mews for a while its good to blow the cobwebs off once again though isn't it :)
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: sarah on Tuesday 16 December 14 10:13 GMT (UK)
Hello just letting you know that Astley7 (lisa) email notification are not working at the moment she seems to be "over her quota"

Regards

Sarah :)
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Trees on Tuesday 16 December 14 14:43 GMT (UK)
Thanks Sarah can she see the present discussion though?
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: sarah on Tuesday 16 December 14 15:05 GMT (UK)
Sorry No trees, our notification are bouncing back from the email provider they will not be accepted until they clear some of their old emails. They could have even have changed email address?

Regards

Sarah
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Trees on Tuesday 16 December 14 15:09 GMT (UK)
Shame lets hope it gets sorted eventually
Laura75 here are the marriage details for Ruth:
209   22 May 1860
   Thomas   HEW   full age      Bachelor   Mason   Paulton   Thomas   HEW   Pensioner
   Ruth   CARTER   full age      Spinster      Paulton   Jacob   CARTER   Collier
Wits:   William   INGS    Mary   CARTER      Banns

You can see her sister Mary was a witness



Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Trees on Saturday 20 December 14 10:52 GMT (UK)
....I think John ASHMAN might be her Grandfather.....   

Judging by the number of marriages John Ashman witnessed I think he was the parish clerk at some time You may find this small item on my web site of interest about the work of the parish clerk in case he was
http://www.mcmullin.plus.com/par%20clerk.html
Can you tell us where your tree is and what name you have given it in case we can add to it for you
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Laura75 on Saturday 20 December 14 18:31 GMT (UK)
Thanks for that information about John ASHMAN. I have various ASHMANs in my tree.

I'm away from my computer at the moment and doing this on the phone. Hopefully this link to my tree works.

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/72063344/family

It's called Edwards Family Tree. 
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Trees on Saturday 20 December 14 21:39 GMT (UK)
Thanks for that Laura I don't like the way An..ry removes the spacing so will try to give the details of the records here
Jacob and Sarah's Children's baptisms from Free Reg:
850   25 Dec 1827   George   M   Jacob   Sarah   CARTER      Paulton   Collier
1045   26 Dec 1830   Ruth    F   Jacob   Sarah   CARTER   Paulton   Collier
she married Thomas Hew 22 May 1860 in Paulton
1302   25 Dec 1834   Sarah   F   Jacob   Sarah   CARTER   Paulton   Collier
1538   04 Nov 1838   Mary    F   Jacob   Sarah   CARTER   Paulton   Collier
married Q2 1869 Bristol District Carter    Mary         Bristol    6a   37
Hawkins    James Walter
28   Sep 1840   Martha   -   Jacob   Sarah   CARTER   Paulton   Collier
283   28 Jul 1844   Anne   F   Jacob   Sarah   CARTER   Paulton   Collier

As you know James Walter Hawkins and Mary had two children Edward James ...he was with his parents in 1871 and with Aunt Ruth and her husband in 1881 and Annie Margaret who was with Aunt Ann in 1881
Do take care when following An..ry clues make sure you have a definite reliable source if none is given ask the owner of the tree where he or she found the information If they can;t tell you other than its on another tree check it for yourself with sound sites such as Free Reg  the censuses...look at the actual images not just the transcription (yesterday for example! found a census with a son older than the father in the transcription the image showed the sin to be 12 but the transcription had 72! a tree owner had gaily copied that birth date  with out a worry!)and you can also ask here on Rootschat if someone can check for you but remember we can't give any copy right information but will tell you the basics and where the information can be found.
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Trees on Sunday 21 December 14 12:52 GMT (UK)
Looking at Thomas HEW
Ruth died in 1884
then
Thomas remarried
(from An..try)
Elizabeth Banfield
[Elizabeth Gregory] 
Female
Widowed
9 Feb 1888
Bristol, St Nicholas, Gloucestershire, England
John Gregory
Thomas Hew
4223383

So I looked for a marriage of Elizabeth Gregory and a BINFIELD couldn't find one so I looked for a marriage of Elizabeth Gregory and found on FindMyPast:
28 Nov James Carter son of William married Elizabeth Gregory daughter of John Gregory in Paulton
Poor James died and was buried in Paulton (from Free Reg):RegisterNumber
527

James Carter buried December 27th 1873 Age 25 years

From Bath BMD(another very useful site for you it gives mother's maiden names for baptisms)
Elizabeth Carter married James Banfield  in St John the Baptist Keynsham 1875 Bath BND shows she was either Carter or Banfield which means they have noted her maiden name was Gregory but was marrying as Carter. Free BMD show the marriage was Dec qtr ie between October and December 1873
James Banfield was buried 23 Oct 1880 aged 30 he had been living at Plumers Hill Paulton (Free Reg)
Elizabeth Banfield father John Gregory married Thomas Hew as you have in st Nicholas Bristol 9 Feb 1888

Now as it happens I already had the marriage of Elizabeth Ann Gregory and James Carter on my tree so that now all links up.
If you want details of James Carter or Elizabeth Gregory let me know but neither are on your main tree are they just married in.
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: DRH123 on Sunday 21 December 14 14:23 GMT (UK)
FreeREG givesa you full details of that Keynsham wedding

 http://www.rootschat.com/links/01eei/

David
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Trees on Sunday 21 December 14 17:35 GMT (UK)
Many thanks David so it does and it confirms that she was a widow with father ohn Gregory.
I wonder what happened to poor James Carter He died so young and only a month after they married. I can't see any obits or newspaper items about his death though. Poor Elizabeth was not lucky in her marriages two months with James Carter 5 years with James Banfield at least she and Thomas Hew had a good time together. He died in June Qtr 1904
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Laura75 on Sunday 21 December 14 20:42 GMT (UK)
Thank you for the extra information. I contacted a few people on the other site who had Elizabeth and Thomas HEW on their trees to confirm the details. Nobody can confirm when and where Elizabeth HEW died, though. I've only done a brief search using her various names, I know she's not a direct ancestor, but with all those marriages I was curious about her.
There's even a (supposed, I've not confirmed it) photo of her, which makes her seem more real.
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Trees on Sunday 21 December 14 23:32 GMT (UK)
She was a widow on the 1911 census but I haven't found her death either will keep looking. Is it possible she married a fourth time?? Do you know where and when the photo was taken? Do you have any idea who Efoth Gregory the niece with her in 1901 was could she help to find her Did she go to live with Ediths parents? I notice some one has Edith as daughter of Jane Gregory (Elizabeth's sister) but the age is a bit out.Does your contact know how James Carter died?
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Trees on Monday 22 December 14 15:24 GMT (UK)
Help Carter researchers Does anyone know who George Carter born 1841 Paulton was  This one married Ann BULL who was the widow of  John Carter and the mother of George Carter 1839. Ann and George are on censuses together with correct ages and with other of her children by John .George, her second husband was her lodger in 1871  ':-\'
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Laura75 on Tuesday 23 December 14 07:57 GMT (UK)
My Elizabeth GREGORY contact is researching on behalf of her husband. His great grandmother, Eliza, is Elizabeth GREGORYs sister. I've asked her when and where the photo was taken.
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Laura75 on Tuesday 23 December 14 08:14 GMT (UK)
Edith GREGORY from my contacts Tree:

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/43148416/person/13221851517

Daughter of James NASH and Eliza GREGORY. This is her husbands family, so she has lots of photos attached to her tree.
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Trees on Tuesday 23 December 14 11:54 GMT (UK)
Probably little Edith M was given to the widow to look after by the parish. This was a common way of looking after base born children by the poor law officials The parish would pay the widow child care giving her a bit of income and freeing the mother to work on her own account so she was not liable to the parish for relief. Luckily it seems once Eliza married her husband accepted Edith into his family. It would be an idea to look at the Paulton Poor law records to see if Eliza had named the father it is possible it was James Nash but could well have been some one else. ( I have a small piece about the Parish poor law on my web site:
http://www.mcmullin.plus.com/sh%20bar%20paper.html
and http://www.mcmullin.plus.com/poor%20law.html and
http://www.mcmullin.plus.com/overseers.html
May interest you. I really must update these pages I have more examples now particularly of bastard children being "nursed" by widows. I recently found one on my tree who was given to a young widow with children the same age as my ancestor whose parents both died when she was only 2 A good result for all concerned she had a loving family with other children to play with and the widow had a little extra income being paid for five rather than four children.
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: tbennett54 on Sunday 08 March 15 17:33 GMT (UK)
Hello again. I just picked up this thread and very interesting it is too.  We have moved onto a younger George Carter than the one mentioned in the thread heading, hope that's OK. Trees, you said "Does anyone know who George Carter born 1841 Paulton was  This one married Ann BULL who was the widow of  John Carter and the mother of George Carter 1839".

I think he is the George Carter born about 1837 (not 1841 - his age is understated in the later censuses), son of John Carter and Amy Bull (m 6 Feb 1826 Paulton), who seem to have stopped having their children baptised after 1831.  I can't find exactly why I have him for this odd marriage to a woman 20 years older than himself, but I seem to have eliminated all the alternative George Carters of similar age, and there are a great many!

George seems to be in Llangattock in 1861 in the household of George Hughes and is stated to be his "relation", though I haven't worked out which.  These Carters certainly keep you on your toes!
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Trees on Monday 09 March 15 18:31 GMT (UK)
Good to meet up again I'm away from home until tomorrow evening will answer fully then
H.
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Trees on Tuesday 10 March 15 19:22 GMT (UK)
Home again
1871 RG10/5586
Anne CARTER   Head   Wid   52    Paulton
Charles       Son   Unm   21    Paulton
William       Son       18     Paulton
Esther       Daur    13    Paulton
George       Lodger   Unm    32   Paulton

George born about  1839

George and Ann BULL married in 1871
1881
RG11/5464 fo130 p21   
George CARTER   Head   Mar   41   Paulton
Ann      Wife   Mar   62         Paulton
Charles      Son   Wdr   31   Paulton
William      Son   Un   26   Paulton

Charles and William were sons of john Carter and Ann BULL George born about 1840

1891 RG12/4575 fo107 p 1
George CARTER   Head   Marri ed   52   Paulton    
Ann CARTER   Wife   Married   73            Paulton
William CARTER   Son   Single   38   Coal Miner   Ed   Paulton

george born about 1839

So I am not convinced he was the one born 1837
There are so many George Carters from Paulton I have found 9 born between 1839 and 1842! Are you sure you can acount of them all?

Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Trees on Tuesday 10 March 15 21:20 GMT (UK)
1,Baptised 1568   05 May 1839   George   John   Ann   CARTER   Paulton   Collier cant be him he married Ann!
2. 1576   21 Jul 1839   George   base born of  Ann   CARTER   Paulton
3.base born nother Fanny age 2 on the 1841 census and 11 in 1851 married Elizabeth JORDAN
4.1590   25 Dec 1839   George   Joseph   Betsy   CARTER   Paulton   Collier
5. 18      26 Jul 1840   George   -   George   Frances   CARTER      Paulton   Collier
in Dudley in 1851
6 The George in question
7.son of John and Elizabeth nee Barton died 1861
8.120   22 May 1842   George   John   Priscilla   CARTER      Paulton   Collier married Mary Ann GREGORY
9.121   22 May 1842   George   William   Betty   CARTER      Paulton   Collier
died in infancy
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: tbennett54 on Wednesday 11 March 15 00:11 GMT (UK)
That's a good list and I realise it is foolish to claim I have accounted for all of them.  And I now think I am probably wrong saying that George the son of John Carter and Amy Bull is probably the one to marry Ann.  But he is another to add to the list (and there is no baptism for him in Paulton.)   In the census here he is:

1841, Paulton: John Carter 30 butcher, Amey 30, Thomas 14, Phebe 7, George 4, Samuel 1.

1851, Winterfield, Paulton: John Carter 44 butcher, Amey 44, George 12, Samuel 10, Elizabeth 8, Emma 6, John 4, Hannah 1, all b Paulton.

This George is not with his family in 1861. 

But perhaps we can accept that the one who married Ann is the same one who is living with George Hughes in Llangattock in 1861.  It would help to know what his relationship with George Hughes is.  George must I think be George HEW (bp 24 Dec 1820 Paulton), son of James Hew and Mary Hewish.  He married Margaret Lewis on 11 Mar 1852 in Llangattock (stated to be the son of James "Hughes").  I'm not bothered by the Hew/Hughes thing.  It would be natural for a Welsh census enumerator and a Welsh vicar to take Hew as the common Welsh Hughes.

Number 4 on your list, George the son of Joseph and Betsy, comes into play now.  His mother is Betsy or Elizabeth HEW.  There seems to be no baptism for her but her age in the census suggests a birth date about 1817.  I can't establish a relationship between her and James / George HEW, but there is a nephew Edward HUGHES aged 10 (b Beaufort, Brecon) with her in 1881 in Paulton. 

I haven't managed to dig out anything more substantial - Edward seems to have disappeared after 1881.  Betsy Carter nee Hew died in 1887.  And George Hughes alias Hew and his wife Margaret seem not to be in the census after 1871 either.  But I suppose a possible scenario is that George Hew/Hughes and Betsy wife of Joseph Carter are siblings.  Edward is George's son.  And these connections make it more likely that George Carter, who is with George Hughes in 1861, is the son of Joseph and Betsy Carter.

Then there's the conundrum of George Carter the lodger with Joseph and Betsy in 1861 - New Town, Paulton: Joseph Carter 48 coal miner, Betsy 44, Henry 14, Mary 9, Sarah 6, Felix 3, George Carter (lodger) 22 coal miner, all b Paulton.

Could he be enumerated twice (not impossible!)?  Is George the lodger not Joseph and Betsy's son?  I think I saw an earlier thread on this.  The son is here, anyway:

1841, Paulton: Joseph Carter 25 coal miner, Betty 20, George 1.

1851, New Town, Paulton: Joseph Carter 38 coal miner, Betsy 34, George  11, Elizabeth 7, Henry 4, all b Paulton.

Hmm.




Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Trees on Wednesday 11 March 15 06:37 GMT (UK)
A lot to chew on there will take a look and get back with my thoughts on it later

Will we ever sort these Carters out  why do some get baptised and others just appear on censuses
I think we need a chart showing which families turn up in Wales and which stay in Somerset too
umm plenty to keep us going
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: tbennett54 on Wednesday 11 March 15 09:42 GMT (UK)
A little bit more digging. There's no birth registration for an Edward Hughes (or variants) around 1871 in the Crickhowell district, which covers Beaufort.  There is an Edwin Morgan Hughes born Dec qtr 1870.  In the 1871 census we have:

Prisk, Llangattock: Nimrod Hughes 40 iron miner b Paulton, Elizabeth 38 b St Mary Devon, Charles 13 b Bedwellty, Mary 7 b Bedwellty, William 5 b Beaufort, Edwin 6mo b Beaufort, William Jones (lodger) 24 iron miner b Malmesbury Wilts.

"Edwin" and "Edward" are sometimes interchangeable, so I think this is the Edward living with Betsy Carter nee Hew in 1881 in Paulton, stated to be her nephew. Nimrod Hew, bp  2 July 1826 in Paulton, is a son of James Hew and Mary Hewish.  Ergo, Betsy is a sister of Nimrod.  Betsy's son George Carter (bp 25 Dec 1839 Paulton) is therefore a nephew of George Hew/Hughes who is in Llangattock in 1861.  So "relation" means in this case nephew.

We dig and we dig.... (bit we will never sort out the Carters).

Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Trees on Wednesday 11 March 15 14:31 GMT (UK)
Ok I've just had a trip to the census board to see if I can confirm the Nimrod connection and it looks good
Free Reg has a marriage 20 Dec 1858 for Nimrod and Elizabeth Deavey his father was decesed James His age was 30 a better match than the 71 and 181 census for Nimrod bapt in 1826
and two Amos witnesses and of course there are Amos connections along the way. So surely Betty Hew was a sister like you say there is a gap in James and Mary's family between their two Georges
1817 and 1820 where Betty will fit nicely. Nimrod is in Beaufort in 1851 with a family named Sage and I have already got a Sage Carter marriage in my data base
I think we can safely add Betty to the James and Mary family. So her son was Nephew of George Hughes and it was he who married the widow Ann Bull

phew I think we have solved it well done many thanks that filled a rainy morning nicely ;D and ties another Carter loose end up.
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: tbennett54 on Wednesday 11 March 15 15:59 GMT (UK)
It's very gratifying isn't it, even if we solve just one of these along the way.  I am now trying out a spreadsheet approach to all the George Carters born 1837-42 in Paulton.  I won't go into any more detail now but they nearly all ARE accounted for.  Will supply info later.
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Trees on Wednesday 11 March 15 17:34 GMT (UK)
whoopy I hope they are will look forward to the list
So from my initial list
1,Baptised 1568   05 May 1839   George   John   Ann   CARTER   Paulton   Collier
2. 1576   21 Jul 1839   George   base born of  Ann   CARTER   Paulton
3.base born nother Fanny age 2 on the 1841 census and 11 in 1851 married Elizabeth JORDAN
4.1590   25 Dec 1839   George   Joseph   Betsy   CARTER   Paulton   Collier
5. 18      26 Jul 1840   George   -   George   Frances   CARTER      Paulton   Collier
in Dudley in 1851
6 The George in question
7.son of John and Elizabeth nee Barton died 1861
8.120   22 May 1842   George   John   Priscilla   CARTER      Paulton   Collier married Mary Ann GREGORY
9.121   22 May 1842   George   William   Betty   CARTER      Paulton   Collier
died in infancy

4=6 and married Ann BULL but then what is going on in 1861
Is the lodger with Joseph and Mary their son! or yet another George and what of the one with George Hughes that surely is Joseph and Mary's son and he married Ann Bull
So we now only  have 8 and need to find what happened to Nos 1&2
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: tbennett54 on Wednesday 11 March 15 20:28 GMT (UK)
Okay, in 1861 is Joseph and Betsy Carter have a lodger named George Carter, aged 22, b Paulton, who I think is NOT their son of almost similar age.  That son must almost certainly be the one in Llangattock with his uncle George Hughes/Hew.  Joseph Carter (b 1813) has a sister Ann Carter (b 1809) who has an illegitimate son named George, baptised 21 July 1839.  Ann is living in Paulton in 1861 with her younger son William, and George is not there, but only a few doors away are Ann's brother Joseph with his wife Betsy, and lodger George. I think George is Ann's son.

Moreover, very nearby is living William Jordan and his family. William is the father of Elizabeth Jordan - who isn't actually present in 1861.  However, the closeness of these family groupings suggest to me that William Jordan is about to become the father-in-law of lodger George, who is due to marry Elizabeth Jordan on 4 Sep 1862.  The marriage register entry gives no father's name for George, unsurprisingly.  Yes, he could be George the base-born son of Fanny Carter who is aged 2 in 1841 and 11 in 1851, but I'd say the evidence points to George son of Ann instead.

George son of Fanny is one of two Georges in this large contemporary group that I can't trace after 1851.  The other is the son of John Carter and Amy Bull, born abt 1837/8.  The rest are done and dusted I believe!

Let's try an upload. I've converted the spreadsheet into a pdf file which I hope will work.
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Trees on Thursday 12 March 15 07:09 GMT (UK)
That worked well strangely my husband did a similar chart to sort the Carters out years back his chart "George CARTERS from Paulton born 1837 – 1844   1871 – 1901 Census" pm me your e mail and I'll send his over to you I'm checking it against yours right now.
Title: Re: Who's the dad of George CARTER 1831 Paulton
Post by: Trees on Thursday 12 March 15 10:17 GMT (UK)
Thanks for the pm We are now putting notes on our chart to show the differences before sending it We have hit a big problem
Ann mother of base born George we don't think was the sister of Joseph who married Betty Hew and with the lodger George in 1851
Why
We have Joseph son of Stephen and Mary he had a sister Ann b 1809 who you think was young George's mum
But we have Ann living with a Mary in 1841
fo35 p21
Paulton   Mary CARTER   70   Ind   y
fo36 p22   Ann      25
   George      2

But Stephen's Mary we have buried 359   26 Dec 1826   Mary   CARTER   39   Paulton
This Mary with Ann was born Abt 1771 there is one bapt that year to James and Mary Carter. She is 13 years older than Stephen so I don't think she is Mary James who married Stephen so Ann isn't Joseph's sister.
So we think Ann was the base born daughter of Mary Carter bapt Paulton Mary    The daughter of James Carter and Mary his wife was baptised June 8th 1771 and dying in 1845

now we have totally failed to sort out the James and Mary children I'll send you the chart we have for the various James and Marys
H.