RootsChat.Com
Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: andrew__85 on Wednesday 26 August 09 21:07 BST (UK)
-
I have this image in an album, and a thought of who it could be. For verrification I wondered if there was anyone able to give a rough date for this picture?
Thanks
Andrew
-
Hello Andrew
The lady looks in the 1st. stage of mourning & is going to be difficult to date on dress alone.
The photographer is (I assume) Sunderland & Hudson,you will need to show us the back of this & in colour.
jim
-
What were the stages of mourning? How long did the first one last? I did wonder why the black dress.
I will add colour and the back at the weekend, but you are correct with your photography studio.
Albumin I think, if it helps.
-
There were no hard & fast rules regards mourning but the "etiquette" was 12 months for each of the 2 stages.The first year would have a widow dressed completely in black with no adornments.The second stage adorments & some white lace.
jim
-
I'm thinking about 1870-ish.
She isn't wearing a wedding ring, (but then neither am I) and she doesn't have an elaborate widow's cap, so maybe not lost her husband. However, she certianly is in deep mourning.
The short jacket under her cape and the fringing sugest 70-ish. No hoop, so not much earlier. Can't tell about a bustle, but the skirt is full enough....also the deep band on the bottom of the skirt is about that time, so not much later than that.
Hope this helps,
Leonie.
-
Mmmmm.don't think it's that early Leonie.The style of the card stock suggests a later date probably 1890's at least also Sunderland & Hudson weren't in partnership at that time.This card states Hudson & Co. late Sunderland & Hudson so by this time the partnership had dissolved but were both still trading.
From little there is to see of her bodice it looks an 1880's style & like her skirt has had crape added giving it a peculiar look.There seems to be a mark on her left hand indicating where a ring may have been,she may have removed this as the etiquette suggests no jewellry to be worn.As she's wearing a widow's cape she would be recognisable as a married woman.
If she has limited means she may have used an older skirt for this occasion because it does look very dated as you point out.
jim
-
OK, I downloaded it and had a closer look. I can see now that the jacket is longer than I first thought, it's waisted, where I thought it was sitting on her waist. (This is why I don't do restores any more, ::) I don't see as well as I used to.)
However, I really dont think it's as late as 1890. How about we meet in the middle somewhere? ;D Maybe it's a re-print on new card stock. ?
I don't like to confuse people when they want a more precice date, so I'll withdraw now and go look at one of my bigger books tomorrow.
:D
Leonie.
-
Looking at Kelly's these 2 were independant in 1884 but had joined forces by 1888 up to 1892 & seemed to have parted company by 1896 so "late Sunderland & Hudson" would be after 1892.
jim
-
When I get home I will upload the colour versions and have a look at the windows in time between husbands dying and the ladys dying. I suspect one will be 1872-1874, and the other will be about 1895..... But i should check before you start debating the issue any further.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Andrew
-
Well, I was having a think,
She could be this chap's wife, in mourning after his death,
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=401597
Or that chap could be her husbands father!
-
or perhaps this is her other half.
Any comments on his date?
-
This is a reprint of a late 1860's - early 1870's picture taken about the time same as the first.This man looks to be in his 40's
jim
-
I did wonder why the black dress.
Although this photo almost certainly does show a lady in a black dress, don't assume that just because a person in an old photo is wearing dark clothing it's black. As it isn't a colour photo, it could be anything but pastels :)
Cheers,
China
-
Isn't that crape on her cuffs?
jim
-
How do you know it is a reprint?
I scanned it greyscale, such that I could increase the resolution and the bit depth without making the file too large.
I Think it is a mourning outfit, there are not rings for one.
-
I wasn't going to post on this again 'til I'd looked in one of my bigger books, (which I haven't had time to do yet.) but...
I'm not sure these two photos were taken in the same studio. Maybe the same address, maybe the same photographer, maybe he had lots of props...
As to mourning practices and jewellery.... there was a whole industry producing the stuff, I can't find any reference to a widow removing her wedding ring when her husband dies. There are, however lots of reasons why a married lady or widow wouldn't be wearing a wedding ring.
Currently reading from 1830's, (some plague, can't remember which, typhoid I think) widow was in black for 6 months, then lavender for another 6 months, with black gloves.
Mother was in black for lost children the same times. These ladies were upper class, society ladies and much younger, so maybe older women mourned longer and maybe middle classes were less inclined to spend too much money on "second stage mourning". Lots of variables....
Just putting in this lot to confuse you all. ;D Just kidding, I just feel that the more information we have the more informed our guestimates can be.
Leonie.
-
We've already established that the card stock is post 1892 but this gent is wearing 1870's clothing,his hairstyle is also 1870's.The props & backdrop ae also from this period.Men rarely wore rings of any description.This is normal day wear for an 1860's/1870's gent.Men didn't wear mourning attire.
jim
-
Men might wear an armband, but that's about it.
I'm not arguing that it's not mourning attire. It certainly looks like it. I'm saying any photo that isn't in colour can look like a black dress but isn't necessarily.
People post photos on this board all the time, asking why so-and-so is wearing black. Well, it's not a colour photo, so it could be any dark colour. We'll never know what colour it was...
C
-
I'll go along with that China. :D
I've looked in a couple of other books and can find nothing new to add.
I'm still thinking seventies (later rather than early) style of dress.
Perhaps not the newest dress in her wardrobe and perhaps a reprint on later card stock. In fact, the alignment of the photo on the card in both instances sugests a reprint.
Something for your information; gentlemen would wear and armband and hat band for a short mourning period. These would be crepe, so in most photos from that time would be very hard to differentiate from the normal satin/grosgrain hat band.
Leonie.