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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: lisat on Tuesday 25 August 09 10:55 BST (UK)
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Hi there, I'm fairly new to this, so I hope I dont do anything I shouldnt! Can anyone help me regarding finding information on an inquest. The relative I'm researching died in 1957, and the death certificate states the cause of death as 'coal gas poisoning in room, circumstances unknown (open verdict). Could this be suicide, or does open verdict suggest not? There was an inquest, by the Coroner for the county of London, and I wondered if it would be able to see the results, or do they hold them for so many yuears? My relative died in hospital, I dont suppose you can get hold of such recent hospital records, can you?
Do you think there might be a newspaper report, how would I find this? She died in a hospital in Holborn, London. How would I find archives for the right newspaper?
Any help would be ever so welcome. Thanks
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Public access to coroners' records is governed by the Public Records Act 1958 as amended by the Public Records Act 1967, s.44, and Coroners' Rules (1984) Rule 57. By an order of the Lord Chancellor, under s.5 of the 1958 Act (Instrument No. 68, Access to Public Records, 16 April 1984), records relating to reported deaths are closed to the public for 75 years
Any request to see closed records should be directed to the appropriate local coroner's office. However a schedule of destruction is laid down by a Home Office Circular 250/1967. Once the records are 15 years old they can be 'weeded' - destroyed or sampled, for example - by the individual coroner concerned.
Stan
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Circumstances unknown (open verdict).
??? I'd say that about sums it up, doesn't it? They couldn't figure out what had happened, so left it as OV. Pretty much the official jargon for, " Your guess is as good as mine. " And so we can now only conjecture ourselves.
And, unless I'm mistaken; Wouldn't the inclusion of OV , on the Cert' suggest that was the Coroners finding? I suppose it'd all come down to exactly when she died and any time span between that and the production of the Cert'? No idea how long Coroners take to produce their verdicts on such things.
Traditionally though, people stuck a wet towel against the bottom of the door and stuck their head in the gas oven. That left little doubt as to their intentions, when discovered.
God, what a lovely subject to start the day with! ;D
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I've lived in a few rentals back in the 1960's when lethal coal gas was used. In old draughty homes it wasn't unusual for the wind to blow out the flames on the gas cooker or gas fire. Anyone who who didn't have a nose for smells was at a disandvantage, or beware if you had an afternoon nap & the heater flames blew out - you'd never wake up again.
Rena
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Thanks to Stan, Rena and Steve G for your replies. Sorry for starting the day with such a depressing question! I think you may be right Rena, since an open verdict must indicate that suicide wasnt obvious, perhaps it was an accident.
Anybody any ideas about reports in the papers and where to start with that?
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Lisat; Regards newspaper reports? Just thinking back to the times ..... I'd say it wouldn't exactly be 'big' news. But, it might have got a mention in the local, evening paper.
So, that's where I'd start. Where did she live? What was the local paper? Do they still exist in any shape or form? Local (to her) library ....?
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Open verdict is/was often a way of softening the blow to the family, it doesn't mean that it wasn't suicide, just that there wasn't enough evidence of the person's state of mind/intentions produced to prove without a doubt that they intended to kill themselves and thus justify a no-quibble verdict of suicide. Often, an open verdict allowed for a family to claim on the life insurance/cover the mortgage on the house when a suicide verdict would not.
Ermy
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Thanks Steve G. - she lived in Holborn, London, so I guess I'll try Google to find local paper.
Ermy, think you're spot on. Knowing her circumstances does make me think suicide was more likely than an accident. Thanks.
Just another quick question, I would like to find if she was buried, and where? Any ideas how. Ive seen a website www.deathsrecords.com, but its American, covers UK, and costs. Anybody tries it? If I wrote to the Cemeteries dept. of the local borough, do you think they would tell me if she is buried there?
Thanks once again to all of you who have answered.
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Some of the London Borough of Camden records are now online. You can search for free but need to pay if you want to see complete entries https://www.deceasedonline.com/
Casalguidi :)
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Thanks for that, I'll give it a try.
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If I wrote to the Cemeteries dept. of the local borough, do you think they would tell me if she is buried there?
Thanks once again to all of you who have answered.
I contacted Anfield Cemetery, Liverpool, and was able to get full details of where my grandpa and little sister are buried. They kindly wrote to me and sent a photo of the cemetery and a diagram of the section they are in, together with the reference number. All that made it fairly easy to find the plot when I visited, but sadly there is no headstone or even a marker stone, just a plot of grass :'(
Good luck :)
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Thanks Mother 25, its good to know they can be so helpful. Ive tried contacting the nearest cemetary but havent heard back yet, and I suppose there is no guarantee that its the right one, there are many in London! Sounds a sad story, as is mine, but its good you at least know where they were laid to rest. Thanks for the reply.
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If you don't get anywhere with the local cemetary, try the Local Council of the area she lived, you never know what records they may have, but they might be able to point you in the right direction at least ;)
I was very sad when I discovered there was no headstone but when I thought it through I realised there was probably no money for it. Grandpa died in 1942 and my sister in 1946, therefore during and just after WWII, so headstones were probably not at the top of any wish list.
I placed some flowers on the grass, said a little prayer and had a chat to them both, which sounds mad, I know, but it helped me to know I had found them and they are not forgotten by the remaining family.
I do hope you find what you need, and maybe visit the grave at some point.
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Thanks Mother 25 for your kind wishes. The person I am researching is my husbands blood mother ( he was adopted) and I have just discovered that she died a few years after his birth. He was preparing himself to try to find her - through proper official channels - before she became too old, but now, we are looking for her grave. To think she may have committed suicide at 26 years old seems very sad, but at least we know now. :(
Anyway, thanks for your help.
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That's a really sad story lisat :'(
I wonder if she was so upset about having to give her baby up for adoption, she just couldn't deal with it any more? She was certainly very young, and that type of trauma would have caused terrible distress.
I do hope you have some success with your search, and wish you both all the best.
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Do you think there might be a newspaper report,
Lisat
In regard to the above over the years I have done many lookups for death notices/obituaries in our local paper plus burial lookups on film. Back news papers weekly ones, are normally on film in the main library's reference room.In the locality the person.So I suggest seeing that you know where and when this person died.That you contact the reference room in that area,and ask them if they hold newspapers for the year you want.You can find vital information in newspapers like where/when the funeral will take place.
On the other hand you could search forever for a burial and never find one reason being that they were cremated a newspaper will say this.
Celia
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Thanks Celia, I have managed to find where the local paper archives are, so will have to take a trip from Dorset to London some time to check it out. Im finding it very difficult to search for burials, although Camden council checked out their cemeteries fr me with no luck and advised me of another borough to check.But I think it may be impossible.
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Lisat
I don't know how helpful the archivist are in London,but before you make the journey will they do a look up for you to save one,the journey i mean ;D It is known that some, if an entry is found.Will print it out and email to you.
Celia
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Thats really useful Celia, I never thought of enquiring as to whether they would do a look up for me.
I'll get in touch with them and ask. Dont want a wasted journey. Thanks.
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Just thought I would let you know that I contacted the local archive centre at Camden council, and discovered that they held the newspaper I was looking for. Since you suggested that I ask the archivist for some help, I emailed her, and within a couple of hours, she replied sending me a typed copy of an article regarding the death of my husbands mother, which explained more about the circumstances of her death, but unfortunately didnt say where she was to be buried. The archivist also sent me lots of other helpful stuff, details of all the cemeteries in the area etc etc. So if anyone ever needs to research anything in the Camden area, their Local Studies and Archive centre is really helpful. So, thanks Celia for the suggestion, I have found half of what I am looking for. Still need to find the grave though, that might take some time!
Ermy, you were probably right, the article seems to infer that the coroner couldnt be sure it was suicide, and her father insisted it wasnt, but the circumstances seemed to suggest it to me :(. Anyway, thanks everyone.