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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tephra on Tuesday 25 August 09 10:42 BST (UK)
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Welcome to this weeks Scavenger Hunt.........It looks like a really interesting one, taking us from the UK to Australia, back to UK and then to the U.S. Phew.........it's tiring just thinking about it. Have fun.
Good Luck and Good Hunting.
Barbara
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Duncan Dunbar Tatham was born 20th March 1824 to Poplar surgeon Christopher Tatham and his first wife, Justina Dunbar Tatham. Justina was the sister of Duncan Dunbar II, a shipping magnate who was apparently the Ari Onassis of the time. DDT was the second child of three, and the only son. According the "The Times", it seems that, as a young man, he was involved in a scuffle with some felonious types - the newspaper reports indicate they tried to rob him whilst he was in the company of a young lady ... the felons claimed they were trying to blackmail him, because said young lady had removed her bonnet (scandalous!) in DDT's company.
Whatever the reason or cause, DDT then shows up in Australia. I believe he sailed on the "King William", arriving in Melbourne on the 12th September 1851. He worked as a shipping clerk with connections to his Uncle Duncan's firm ... until he, reportedly, passed a couple of letters of credit on Uncle Duncan ... for which he had no authority! Needless to say, his employment with the family firm seems to have ceased at this point.
The next we hear of him, he was married to Mary Ann Judd at St Peter's church in Melbourne on the 7th June 1853. In 1854, their daughter Justina was born at Chiltern, Victoria, ... and in 1856 they had a son, Duncan John Tatham. By this time, they were living in Geelong, and DDT was employed as a warder/turnkey at Geelong Gaol. However in 1857, his wife Mary Ann died. And this is where it gets strange.
There seems to be no trace of DDT after Mary Ann's death.
The two children were reportedly retrieved from Australia by their Aunt Phoebe, and taken back to "Blighty" aboard a Dunbar ship captained by one of DDT's uncles. As it was a Dunbar ship, we suspect the trip was a "family freebie", and records weren't kept precisely. We have found two Tatham children aboard a Dunbar ship, however their names were given as Elizabeth and John ... still not sure they're our babes. Back in England, Justina Tatham was taken in by Aunt Phoebe, and baptised at the age of 8 in Hatfield, Herts. Sadly, Justina died in 1870 aged just 16.
Duncan John was taken in by his grandfather and step-grandmother, Elizabeth Gordon Tatham. He was sent to a good boarding school in Kent, and around the time he left school, he inherited some money from the estate of his half-uncle Christopher. This, too, is interesting, because a codicil on the Will directs that he will be disinherited if he ever signs any of the money over to anyone else; - is this a clue that DDT was still alive?
Next, Duncan John shows up in Laramie City, Wyoming, on the 1880 US Census. He was working as a bartender and living in the home of a Mr Ivinson (the house is still standing, and a local tourist attraction, I believe).
But after 1880 there's no sign of Duncan John ... until a D J Tatham appears on the manifest of the "Port Henderson", which sailed from Kingston Jamaica to Avonmouth, Bristol, in December of 1910.
Is it possible these two fellows can be found?? I'm only one of a conglomeration of distant cousins, who'd love to know what happened to them!
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Wow this is a tricky one. I have rellies who've travelled to various parts but there are some serious movements here.
Will have a look
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Give yourself a pat on the back, you've beaten Toni and Lesanne this week. ;D ;D
It does bounce about a bit doesn't it, but it makes it more interesting. ;)
Barbara
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shes here shes here i know shes here cos i am she!
(love that line)
I have no knowledge of searching Aus ::)
maybe DDT stopped getting into trouble once his wife died! maybe he became very depressed and thus the children had to go and stay with other family ?
a lots of maybes but was trying to say there are lots of possible solutions to the problem and maybe he didnt actually die.
sometimes there is no definite proof and you have to go with the coincidenes, the elizabeth and John Tatham aboard the Dunbar ship did they travel alone? where was Aunt Pheobe at this time?
maybe Christopher just wanted he Dunbar fortune to be kept in the Dunbar family and not sigend over to someone else it doesnt necessarily mean that DDT was still alive.
will see what i come up with
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DDT appears in this book
The coins of the British Commonwealth of Nations to the end of the reign of ... - Page 120
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Have you seen this?
http://www.hertfordshire-genealogy.co.uk/data/answers/answers-2009/ans9-012-brown.htm
doesnt really help - but another link with Aunty Phoebe
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is this Phoebe ?
Marriages Mar 1847 Poplar 2 287
Askie Thomas (London 2 287 )
Askie Thomas (London W 2 287)
Brown William Smith
HAZEL William James
KANE George
PAULEY Joseph
Ritchie Sophia
STEEL Kate
Tatham Phoebe
YOUNG Mary Elizabeth
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The National Archives | The Catalogue | BrowseAppellant: Phoebe Tatham. Respondent: Harry Tatham. Type: Wife's petition for divorce [WD]. ... 1929. first page . previous page Previous | Next next page ...
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/.../browser.asp?CATID...
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Pheobe is mentioned here
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~akrb61/people/wray/d12.htm
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Probably a minor thing, but ancestry has Justina being baptised in Walthamstow, Essex not Hatfield, Herts
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There's a Duncan Tatham coming up on Australian electoral rolls for 1901-1936, but as I don't have ancestry worldwide, I'm afraid that I can't check for you
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Hi everyone, and thank you for taking part :-*
Toni, the Phoebe Tatham mentioned in regard to a divorce is not our Phoebe, I'm afraid (I had found that one a while back) - that one would have been a Tatham by marriage, where ours was born a Tatham, and only ever married to Mr Brown. It was, I believe, Phoebe travelling as "Mrs Brown" who accompanied the children back to England - will check my notes again to be doubly sure.
Thank you for that link - thanks also to Lizdb for her one - I hadn't found either of them before!
Oo-er ... second edit :-[ ... the half-uncle Christopher from whom Duncan John inherited money ... was his half-uncle Christopher Tatham (son of surgeon Christopher and Elizabeth Gordon Tatham) ... so no connection to the Dunbar estate.
The Duncan Tatham who comes up on the electoral rolls is the right fellow, ... but the entry is a glitch; - I found him via the local Library's Ancestry link. The date for his voter registration was actually 1856, from memory, so no idea how it found its way in amongst the 1901-1936 rolls ???
All your help sincerely appreciated,
Deb
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Oh dear, forgot something again :-[
Yes, Spidermonkey, Justina was baptised at Walthamstowe - I mis-read my (scribbled!) notes and missed a line!
And yes, that's her marriage, found by Toni. Would love to find a copy of that book on the coins, incidentally; I believe Uncle Christopher Tatham is mentioned in a book about trade medals or something similar, in Ceylon/Sri Lanka.
:)
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,62599.msg253691.html#msg253691
This is the June 2005 Challenge which we had fun trying to sort. Everyone in anyway connected to The Dunbar Dynasty.
Which one blew up Sydney with the dynamite storehouse.... :P
Another came to Sussex, Lancing College.... ;)
Whatever happened to Claude.... :P ::) :P
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Trust you Lesanne to find something blowing up....... ;D ;D ;D
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This seems to be one namer and what we can find Deb has already found on the internet so i dont know how to help.
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I'm afraid I'm not being much use either. The only thing that occured to me that Deb might not have looked at is Duncan Tatham on the 1911 census. I had a quick look but no one leapt out. But equally there is no likely deaths for Duncan between landing in Bristol in 1910 and the 1911 census so perhaps he is on the census ???
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re the 1911 census is it completely online yet?
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Google Books comes up with a mention of the Coins book, but only a snippet view.
Does mention though
The name was again changed in 1863 to Dickson, Tatham & Co. Tatham was a nephew
of Duncan Dunbar, the millionaire owner of the Dunbar Line of first class...
You may already have these
The Times, Friday, Jan 08, 1847; pg. 7
On the 7th inst, at Poplar Church, William Smith, eldest son of W. S. Brown, Esq., of Brunswick-terrace, Commercial-road, to Phoebe, eldest daughter of Christopher Tatham, Esq., of Poplar, and niece of Duncan Dunbar, Esq., of Limehouse.
There are a few other death and marriage notices for children of Christopher Tatham, but not sure if they are sisters of DDT or half siblings, Robert Gordon, Elizabeth Patty, and Augusta Louisa. Robert Gordon died at 69 East India Road, Poplar on 3rd Dec 1895, aged 66. Says he was the eldest son of Christopher Tatham, Surgeon. In saying that one could assume that DDT had died by then.
Ian C
EDIT
Just found a marriage notice for Robert Gordon Tatham in the Morning Chronicle of July 6 1857, when he married Emma Dixon on 2nd July at All Saints, Poplar. That article says he was second son of Christopher Tatham.
Christophers death notice in the Morning Chronicle Apr 2 1861, saying he died on 28th March.
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Thank you, everyone, for trying to help - it's a frustrating puzzle, isn't it?
Robert Gordon Tatham - DDT's half-brother, - incidentally, was my gt-gt-grandfather ... unfortunately the marriage to Emma Dixon didn't last, ending in the divorce courts (and all over "The Times") about seven years later. Their son Christopher Robert came to Australia, and his sisters who remained at home never married.
Eyesee, those names belong to half-siblings of DDT ... and the Tatham referred to in the Dickson, Tatham & Co notes, I believe, was actually Robert Gordon's brother Christopher, and so not technically Dunbar's nephew. Am I being pedantic, or semantic? :o
Again, many thanks, it's not an easy one to solve and I realise we may get nowhere even with so many great minds working on it!
Deb
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Hi,
Mary Ann wasburied 18 Dec 1857 in grave number 95242 at Geelong Eastern Cemetery . Only person with that surname to show up in a surname search.
http://www.gct.net.au/search.html#
Also son Duncan John's birth surname was trasncribed as Fatham and Justina was born in Chilwell which is now part of Geelong. This place of birth makes much more sense than Chiltern which is 400 kilometers north of Geelong.
See this scavenger hunt in 2005 in respect to the same family discussed in part of it page 82 is one place.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,62599.0.html
There is a report in
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4836471?searchTerm=duncan+tatham listing him as as swearing to the death by execution of a prisoner in 1856.
Same paper has a Duncan Dunbar sailing from Melbourne to Sydney on the Glen Isla in 1858 http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/7302559?searchTerm=duncan+tatham
A D. Dumbar left Australia for NZ in 1861 on the Ceres
http://proarchives.imagineering.com.au/index_search.asp?searchid=42
Can't a marriage or a death for him in NZ.
good hunting
Robyn
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Hello everyone and get ready for this weeks Scavenger Hunt.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,403453.0.html
Good Luck and Good Hunting.
As usual, this Hunt will remain open for any further information which may come in.
Barbara
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Tuesday already, thats cos yesterday was a bank holiday i wonder how many man hours are wasted with people saying is it Tuesday i thought it was Monday
see you on the next hunt .... maybe
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Hi,
Mary Ann wasburied 18 Dec 1857 in grave number 95242 at Geelong Eastern Cemetery . Only person with that surname to show up in a surname search.
http://www.gct.net.au/search.html#
Also son Duncan John's birth surname was trasncribed as Fatham and Justina was born in Chilwell which is now part of Geelong. This place of birth makes much more sense than Chiltern which is 400 kilometers north of Geelong.
See this scavenger hunt in 2005 in respect to the same family discussed in part of it page 82 is one place.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,62599.0.html
There is a report in
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4836471?searchTerm=duncan+tatham listing him as as swearing to the death by execution of a prisoner in 1856.
Same paper has a Duncan Dunbar sailing from Melbourne to Sydney on the Glen Isla in 1858 http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/7302559?searchTerm=duncan+tatham
A D. Dumbar left Australia for NZ in 1861 on the Ceres
http://proarchives.imagineering.com.au/index_search.asp?searchid=42
Can't a marriage or a death for him in NZ.
good hunting
Robyn
Thanks, Robyn - have had a look around, seems that "Duncan Dunbar" was the name of a ship.
Incidentally, I've fished out my old notes - when the children sailed back to England, we believe they were aboard the "Thames", which was captained by Marmaduke John Tatham (who died when he was a passenger aboard the "Scoresby", out of Calcutta in 1866). The children are named on the manifest as Elizabeth Tatham, aged 3, and John Tatham, aged 1. Also aboard is a Jane Brown, aged 25 - this is inconsistent with "Aunt Phoebe", so my initial recollection about who accompanied them, was incorrect. Phoebe was born 26/11/1821 and would have been 37-38 by then. I don't know whether her husband, William Smith Brown, may have had a sister named Jane. She certainly wasn't one of Phoebe's children as they were all too young.
BTW Lesanne - I must have missed the mention of the fellow who blew up Sydney and the dynamite store! Can you fill me in?
Deb
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:D From memory... It was an old newspaper snippet. Now, that could be The Times (England or Australia) probably English one. I think I posted it in the 2005 search... Maybe google it.
I remember finding family attending Lancing College. It's just down the road from me in Sussex. They have an Archive. 8)
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I presume you have the children of William Smith Brown and Phoebe Tatham already?
They were:
1. Phoebe Duncan Brown - born Dec. Qtr. 1847, Poplar
2. Duncan Brown - born Dec. Qtr. 1849, Poplar Registration District
3. William Edward Brown - born Sep. Qtr. 1851, Poplar R.D.
4. Margaret Emily Brown - born Dec. Qtr. 1855, Poplar R.D. (married Harry Rivers - Sep. Qtr. 1888, Hatfield R.D., Hertfordshire)
5. Francis Dixon Brown - born Sep. Qtr. 1857, Poplar
6. Arthur Kaye Brown - born Dec. Qtr. 1859, Poplar, died Jun. Qtr. Poole R.D., Dorset
William Smith Brown was a Justice of the Peace and died Mar. Qtr. 1892, Portsea R.D., Hampshire and his wife, Phoebe, died Mar. Qtr. 1891 in Hatfield R.D., Hertfordshire.
I am sure you know all this already though.
By the way, I have been trying to unravel the Shores family as well -- they married into the Tatham (twice) and Molison families. Do you have anything further in relation to them?
I am not a family member, I am just filling in the blanks from the June 2005 Scavenger Hunt.
Regards,
James R. Yeowell.
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Hi tephra,
Have I come to the right department to join your scavenger's hunt?
Tulipoo
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Hello Tulipoo, It's best to send Tephra a P.M. ;)
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Hi tephra,
Have I come to the right department to join your scavenger's hunt?
Tulipoo
Hi Tulipoo, I'll put you on the list now. ;D
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Hi James
You've got me confuzzled, now; - I was sure I knew Phoebe and William had six children, ... but when I checked my tree, just now, I discovered I was missing William Edward! I'm going to check in with my distant cousin and fellow genealogist, and see what her notes say! Thank you!
I'll also "nut out" the Shores family, if I can. Yes, there were two Shores/Tatham marriages, ... and both families had connections with the Molisons. :)
Deb
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Deb,
Here's my source for the six children: http://www.hertfordshire-genealogy.co.uk/data/answers/answers-2009/ans9-012-brown.htm
I hope that's of use to you. It lists William Edward Brown as one of their children.
Regards,
James R. Yeowell.
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Thank you James - have checked with the distant cousin/fellow genealogist, who confirms she had all six. So I must have managed to get distracted when I was entering this family in my tree, ... and "lost" one! :-[
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Deb,
Not a problem. I am glad I was able to help in some way.
I have outlined some of the Shores family and I shall see if it matches up with your information tomorrow.
Regards,
James R. Yeowell.
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Hi,
Unlikely to be you man but I found a reference to D J Tatham as witness to a wedding in Jackson County, North Carolina
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~schulthe/ChrisFile/b83.htm
Date of Marriage was 10-29-1886 between , Robert L.Cabe aged 20 to Sarah J. Buchanan, aged 25. Witnessed by D. J. Tatham, James Cabe.
http://www.geocities.com/shahall/marriage.html
regards
Robyn
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Hi everyone, I'm putting this weeks Scavenger Hunt up a little early as I'm going to be busy later on.........and I would probably forget about it!! :D :D
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,405078.0.html
Good Luck and Good Hunting.
As usual, this Hunt will remain open for any further information which may come in.
Barbara
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Hi Robyn,
That link was fascinating - I looked around a little, however, and found a David Tatham (and his twin brother and the rest of the family including a sister who married into the Buchanan family) in the names index, so, ... no, doesn't look as if this is him. Good thought, though!
I might wander off to the Library and have a fresh look at what Ancestry has for the eastern States and Canada; - Laramie City, Wyoming, is a decent old hike from NY (where I assume he landed - haven't found any record of that yet, either!), ... so ... perhaps DJT still had "the bug", and crossed into Canada? Fingers crossed ;)
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Hi Deb and all the contributors to this Scavenger Hunt,
I have just read all the messages and will make a couple of comments.
When the "Thames" left Port Phillip in January 1858 bound for London there were only 15 passengers, all stated to be going to London. As well as "25" years old Jane Brown, there was also "32" years old J WALLIS. The ages are often incorrect on the shipping lists. Perhaps J Wallis is every bit as important to us as Jane Brown as there seemed to be a family link between the Wallis and Shores families. What we need is the itinerary of the Thames to find out just where the ship visited and where Duncan Dunbar Tatham may have disembarked, if he were in fact on board. As well, I should pay a visit to Geelong to search their records, in the hope that I can find the last known reference to him in Victoria. You and I should start saving our pennies! I have just calculated that we are 5th cousins.
As for William Smith Brown, Phoebe Tatham and their family, there seems to have been a court case over Duncan Dunbar junior's Will as it related to the terms of the trust. I haven't worked it out, but the reference at the National Archives gives a hint:
"Item details C 16/60/B67
Cause number: 1862 B67.
Short title: Brown v Gellatly.
Documents: Bill only.
Plaintiffs: William Smith Brown.
Defendants: Edward Gellatly and Phoebe Dunbar Brown, Duncan Brown, William Edward Brown, Margaret Emily Brown, Francis Dixon Brown, Arthur Kaye Brown, John Archibald Dunbar Dunbar, infants."
As for their children, Phoebe Dunbar Brown died unmarried at Fulham on 15 April 1926. She was living at Otto House West Kensington, which I understand was then a "lunatic asylum."
Duncan Brown died at Digswell Welwyn on 2 June 1891.
William Edward Brown I think married Laura Whitaker in 1880 and they had a daughter Dorothy Brown in 1886. Perhaps William Edward Brown was a Lieutenant (refer London Gazette).
Margaret Emily Brown profited handsomely from Duncan Dunbar's Will. References to her and her husband and children are online on the Libindx website in Moray, Scotland.
Francis Dixon Brown married Agnes Mary Quain, and this has been covered already. Francis Dixon Brown was a Director of a Mining Company with its headquarters at 1 Victoria St, Westminster.
Arthur Kaye Brown was an engineer, and he died at Poole, Dorset on 18 June 1900.
So...everything we ever wanted to know about the Browns and no new revelations about DDT or his son DJT! As usual the contributors to Rootschat have been so generous with their time and information, so thanks to all
Regards, Denise
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Wow Denise, Deb will be delighted when she reads your post. 5th cousins..........that's great. ;D ;D ;D
Barbara
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Hi Barbara,
Deb and I are great mates and we are in constant contact, sharing our research as we go. I decided it was about time I confirmed our relationship, hence the 5th cousin mention. Sometimes I can't remember whether I have told her everything, as is the case with the Brown family research. Since other contributors are involved in the discussion I thought I should share it with everyone. Duncan Dunbar Tatham has been driving us and others crazy for some time, and more power to Deb for having this Scavenger Hunt.
Regards,
Denise
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She's not done too bad, there are a few extra pointers for her......and for you of course. The good thing is the Hunt remains open, so anyone googling the name will be able to see the link and hopefully add their two bobs worth ;D ;D
Barbara
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Hello again, everybody - and Hi Denise!
Yes, Denise and I are old cronies ... along with another couple of distant cousins, we've all had a go at finding DDT and DJT - we particularly like the nickname "DDT" for this fellow, because he's as big a nuisance as the pesticide!
I've forgotten who it was who had a quick look in the 1911 Census for DJT ... I'm wondering whether there's been time to have a better look since then? The fellow who sailed into Avonmouth, Bristol in 1910 has me fascinated; - it'd be really nice if we could find him at home in Blighty in 1911. Meanwhile, I'll keep trawling through FreeBMD and the Library's Ancestry link (*sigh!*)
Thanks again to everyone who's played detective for us :)
Deb
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I am a direct descendant of James Molison, the man who blew up Bridge Street in Sydney. He and Alexander Strachan Molison were brothers. James Molison was my g-g-grandfather. I am also related directly to Duncan Dunbar, and as a consequence directly or through marriage to the Shores, Tathams, Forsyths, Browns, von und zu Gilsas and Massons, and numerous others.
Below are my notes of Duncan Dunbar Tatham
IS DESCRIBED IN THE TATHAM FAMILY TREE FROM 1856 AS 'NOW OF GEELONG.' VICTORIA.
"Times" citation, dated Friday, Jul 19, 1844 is of interest. The Thames Police arrested two "dissolute-looking young men", and Mr D. Tatham, of Newby Place, Poplar, clerk to Dunbar and Sons was called to give evidence on oath. This case involved Tatham in a personal way and I will send the full transcription in another post
"The Times", Friday, July 19, 1844:
Category: Law
"THAMES POLICE- Two dissolute-looking young men, named John Cowhurst and Henry Burrell, were charged with endeavouring to extort money under the following circumstances:-
Mr D. Tatham, of Newby-place, Poplar, clerk to Dunbar and Sons, stated, that on the previous evening he was walking with a young lady down Copperas-wall, Poplar, and they were followed by some men and boys, the two prisoners being of the party. When they got further on they sat on a bank to rest, and the lady, suffering from a head-ache, took off her bonnet. Hearing a noise behind, complainant turned round and saw the prisoners and four others, who threatened him with exposure if he did not give them money for beer. Being conscious that they could not say anything of which he needed to be afraid or ashamed, he walked away with his companion, and steadily refused to comply with their request. Still, however, they pursued, and threatened to follow him all the way home. As they went along he met with a constable, and the prisoners were taken into custody.
The prisoners insisted that they caught the lady and gentleman in a very indecent position, the latter having her bonnet and shawl off. They threatened to give them into custody for indecent exposure, and followed them for that purpose, but the complainant meeting a constable preferred the first charge. They denied that any threats had been used for the purpose of extorting money, but Burrell admitted having heard some mention of beer.
Mr Tatham solemnly asserted on his oath that no indecent liberties had been taken, and that the lady who accompanied him was most respectable.
The prisoners were ordered to put in bail for their good behaviour."
SOME NOTES FROM MALCOLM ELMSLIE THROW SOME LIGHT ON THIS GUY.
ON 17 MAY 1845 HE WENT AS A MIDSHIPMAN ON THE SEA PARK TO HONG KONG, AND WAS INTRODUCED TO JARDINE MATHIESON & CO AS DUNCAN DUNBAR'S NEPHEW. HE WAS THEN 21 OR SO. ON 24 APRIL 1847 'DUNCAN DUNBAR WAS SHOCKED TO LEARN THAT DDT HAD DRAWN TWO BILLS OF EXCHANGE ON DUNBAR IN FAVOUR OF JARDINE MATHIESON & CO WHICH WERE BEING PRESENTED FOR PAYMENT. DDT HAD NO AUTHORITY TO DO SO.'
John Dunbar left him 500 pounds under his will in 1845 to be paid when Duncan attained 21 years.
DUNCAN DUNBAR LEFT A TRUST FUND FOR THE CHILDREN in his will dated 1862, AND UNDERSTANDABLY BY-PASSED DDT. WHAT HAPPENED TO DDT IS NOT KNOWN. HE APPEARS TO HAVE DESERTED HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN AND NOT RETURNED TO ENGLAND TO FACE THE MUSIC.
This entry is a little puzzling from IGI. No doubt the right parents, the date is the puzzle.
Justina <Tatham>
Christening: 08 JUL 1862 St Mary'S, Walthamstow, Essex, England
Parents:
Father: Duncan Dunbar Tatham Family
Regards
Joffy
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Hi Joffy and a very warm welcome to RootsChat.
Deb will be delighted with your post, I'm sure she'll be in contact with you.
Barbara
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Hello Joffy,
How exciting to find another researcher for this extensive family. As I live in Sydney I am most interested that James Molison blew up Bridge Street. I assume it was accidental!
If you search all 85 pages or so of the June 2005 Challenge you will find information relating to Duncan Dunbar's wife and children. His wife Mary Ann died of Dropsy and is buried in Geelong, Victoria. Both his children were born in Victoria, but it is likely that Justina was not baptised, or was re-baptised in Walthamstow in 1862 as you have noted.
I knew about Duncan's time in Hong Kong but I did not have the name or date of the ship he travelled on. I am so pleased you have been able to give us this extra information. Can you confirm that Malcolm Elmslie who provided this is the son of Alan and Mary Elmslie? I would very much like to contact him.
Was the John Dunbar who left DDT 500 pounds in 1845 living in England or Scotland?
I descend from John Korff and his wife Mary Gordon who lived in Sydney. Mary was a sister of Elizabeth Gordon, the stepmother of Duncan Dunbar Tatham. Their son Frederick James Robert Korff was a mariner who made frequent trips between Sydney and Melbourne. DDT could therefore have travelled without necessarily going through the usual procedures for passengers.
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Yep. It was Malcolm. Deb, the Shores, Bormans and Rhodes (Molison) had a reunion in Auckland in 2005. Looking to have another one. The Dunbar captains stick together even 150 years later.
Look at the following from Michael Borman to me last week!
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From: Michael (Mike) Borman
Sent: Monday, 31 August 2009 9:10 PM
To: Michael Rhodes
Subject: Re: Norsewood 2-21 January 2010
Good to hear from you Michael and thanks for the kind invitation to join you at Norsewood which we would love to take you up on. There are a couple of issues which have contrived to make our future movements rather uncertain and we are at present somewhat unsure whether or not we shall be able to make it to NZ at all this year. However, we shall certainly be in touch as soon as we know what's happening.
You may remember that I wrote earlier in the year (or was it last year) saying that I had been afflicted by this ailment which you diagnosed as Ross River disease. Disappointingly, this turned out to be rather a savage attack of arthritis in the hip and spine and, I suspect among other sites as well. However the first has now been dealt with and I am now in recovery from a total new hip, which will probably be sufficient to see me out. The spine business is under review and I am awaiting the outcome of an MRI scan to determine the next move... there is a 95% bet that this will not need surgical intervention, and I am very hopeful that we will be able to fly off by mid-November instead of our usual mid-October departure, and continue with any treatment in NZ.
You will be interested to know that the delay is only in part due to the medics and is primarily because the unit historian of Strachan's old AOP unit, which is still flying, presently in Helmand Province, has arranged a memorial visit to France, Holland and Germany, during which 30 odd members of the unit will go to Caen initially and visit each cemetery in which former members of the unit are interred following the advance through France, Belgium and Holland from Normandy to the Rhine crossings. Their journey will end at Reichswald Forest War Cemetery with a short ceremony and squadron fly-past at Strachan's graveside on November 11th, which is Remembrance Day in GB. Carol and I will be attending this last ceremony as representatives of Strachan's family. The plan is for this to be held at 1100, a significant time representing the date/time 1100/11/11 or 'Poppy Day'.
It's been a strange year with my normal range of activities suddenly curtailed. I thought for a few months that, failing any positive diagnosis from the medics in NZ, I could push my way through the pain it but it became so intolerable that I was pretty well chair-bound in the end. Anyway I was fortunate, living where we do, that once I had received a positive diagnosis, the operation followed quite quickly and I am now in the situation where the back originating pain is worse than the hip.
wILLIAM sTRACHAN mOLISON- one of only 44 awarded the DFC and Bar. 2 under the VC. A wonderfully brave man.
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Lovely to hear from you, Joffy!
Denise and I are chuffed with the snippets of information turning up; - with a little luck, the smallest thing might be a clue to something bigger. :)
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I am sure you are aware of this link already but I thought I would repost anyhow.
http://www.merchantnetworks.com.au/periods/1800after/1800dunbar.htm
I realise it is not about Duncan Dunbar Tatham though. Of course, at the time of the 2005 Scavenger Hunt, this webpage would not have existed.
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Hi,
Wonderful seeing the trasnscription of the 1859 will. Interesting to note that money left to both Justina anad Duncan John Tatham!!
regards
Robyn
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Yes, what a pity she only lived to 16! Should one assume that her share went to Duncan John when he reached 21?
**Edit: - I'm wondering whether perhaps "Justina" may have been an ill-omened name, with this family! Justina Dunbar Tatham died at 25/26 ... her daughter Justina Shores (nee Tatham - DDT's sister) died on her 30th birthday, ... and granddaughter Justina Tatham succumbed at a tragically early age as well! How sad!
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Deb
Hopefully he did reach 21 and recieve his share. He may well not have got hers and looking at the will I am sure he would not.
to the Boy on attaining the age of 21 & to the daughter on attaining that age or being married & in the event of the death of either or both their share to lapse into residue.
Of course we are yet to find Dunan Dunbar Taham or his son Duncan John Tatham!!
Rereading the story of the Dunbars I wonder if there is any possibilty that they went to Scotland at some stage to the family holdings there? It might explain why they don't appear to show up in English records.
Other things also arise in rereading the whole article: where does The youngest was his brother-in-law's son, Marmaduke John Tatham fit in.
Did another sister marry a Tatham also?
from your first post ;
Duncan Dunbar Tatham was born 20th March 1824 to Poplar surgeon Christopher Tatham and his first wife, Justina Dunbar Tatham. Justina was the sister of Duncan Dunbar II, a shipping magnate who was apparently the Ari Onassis of the time. DDT was the second child of three, and the only son.
Oh I see son from a second marriage perhaps.
And how wonderful it would be to be able to have access to some 33 of his ships logs and taken extracts from 20, all between 1858 and 1861.
to look for mentions of the Tatham families.
Robyn
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Yes, Robyn, Christopher Tatham who was widowed when Justina Dunbar Tatham died, remarried (Elizabeth Gordon - which is where my connection to Denise arises, as her ancestor was Elizabeth's sister Mary), and had a very large second family :)
As for the ships' logs ... hmmm ... must ask Phil F how much he knows about them!
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Update! - a very very distant cousin has just come to light ... and he may have the answer to our questions!!! Awaiting email from him ... can't sit still ... nibbling fingernails back to the wrists~!!!
Will keep you posted!!!
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Waiting........waiting.......... ;D ;D
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:o oooo It might be Claude 8)
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Hi all,
There is a town TATHAM in the Northern Rivers area of NSW.
I have treid googling to find when it was estalished and how it got it's name, so far no luck.
also found another person seeking Tatham in Vic and NSW
http://www.genealogywise.com/profile/JohnPatten but there were several Tatham 's that migrated so may be no connection.
regards
Robyn
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:'(
Still waiting!!!!
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Oh the suspense, the suspense ........ ;D ;D
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Dunno about you lot, but I'm getting cabin fever, ... still waiting for that email!!! :'(
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Perhaps it's time to send another one!!! Just a gentle reminder......... ;D ;D
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I'm going to talk to the Hallmark card company, and get them to devise a "Howler" card - like the ones in Harry Potter!
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Do it yourself and get rich ;) ;)
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Okay, we can all breathe again. I've just received that email ... which included possibly the last letter received from Duncan John Tatham. It seems DJT took off - as suspected, having inherited some money from his Uncle Duncan Dunbar's estate (and also from his Tatham half-uncle) - to do some hunting in America. The letter mentions hunting, and comments on the possibilities of getting scalped by the Sioux ( :o ), or shot by someone in the event of any disagreement!
Unfortunately, it appears to me that the letter was written well before the 1880 US Census which put DJT in Laramie City.
However the email also mentions that the gravestone for Justina Tatham (died 1870) refers to her father as 'the late Duncan Dunbar Tatham'. Justina died at Hatfield, Herts., ... anyone feel like wandering around the cemeteries around there?
Will update everyone if I hear more!
Deb
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Finally...............I can uncross me fingers now!!!
The e-mail seems to raise a lot more questions...... :-\ :-\
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*Sigh!* ... with this pair of miscreants, why does that not surprise me? ::)
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If you know where he went to in the US it may be worth contacting the state archive / library they may have some rec ords earlier than you think :)
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Hi all,
Headstones are not always erected at the time of interment. The worwding 'the late Duncan Dunbar Tatham'
may have been correct at the time of the commissioning of the headstone.
This could have been any time after 1870!!! Any way o fiding out when it was erected?
So DJT did go to the USA and there he may well have stayed and googling brings up lots of Tatham hits in the USA and some with Duncan so perhaps I might spend some time sifting through these results and see what I can find. USing LAramie and surrounds as a starting point.
regards
Robyn
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Okay, I've sent an email to the Wyoming State Library (there's a contact form on the Wyoming Archives website, but it's not letting me send anything!). Hopefully they might get back to me soon!
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Hi
sites worth visiting but no mention of our man but perhaps contacting them might also be worth while:
http://genealogytrails.com/wyo/albany/html/marriages__1889-1901.html
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wyalbany/obits.htm
and a possible date of death for Duncan Dunbar Tatham:
TATHAM Duncan Dunbar-98273 was born in 1824. He died in 1862. from this site : http://www.merchantnetworks.com.au/genealogy/web/dunbar/pafg06.htm
regards
Robyn
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Deb have you tried here?
http://wyoarchives.state.wy.us/
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Yep, - thanks, Toni, that was the one that wouldn't let me send the contact email form. May try again later; it might have just been my connection was a bit dodgy at the time :)
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have you looked at their newspaper archives online - you can i searched for Dunbar and there were a lot of matches ;D
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Hi again, Toni ... I tried to look at them, but even after re-setting the Adobe Acrobat reader according to the directions ... all I'm getting is a blank page. :-\
Maybe my poota and the website don't get along *sigh!*
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** Another reply, because I looked a bit more closely at the replies! :-[ **
Hi Robyn!, have contacted the chap on the Merchant Networks site (again, ... we've spoken before) about that listing for DDT, ... unfortunately, he's either lost his notes, or didn't take any on the subject of DDT's death - he can't remember!
Actually ... he also has too many siblings for DDT, and not enough half-siblings, as well - after I made contact, with documentation, I thought he was going to amend this, ... but it's been months, and it hasn't been altered. DDT only had two full sisters (Phoebe and Justina), ... and thirteen half-siblings (although only 8 of them survived to adulthood), one of whom was my 2xgt grandfather, Robert Gordon Tatham.
Phoebe, Duncan and Justina Tatham would have been about 6, 3 and 2 when their father, Christopher Tatham remarried ... so obviously Elizabeth Gordon must have been a strong woman, as she raised these children, plus her own brood ... and then, later, took in grandchildren, nephews, neices, in-laws, and an amazing assortment of other relatives! The front door must have been permanently chocked open!
Deb (still astounded)
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** Another reply, because I looked a bit more closely at the replies! :-[ **
Hi Robyn!, have contacted the chap on the Merchant Networks site (again, ... we've spoken before) about that listing for DDT, ... unfortunately, he's either lost his notes, or didn't take any on the subject of DDT's death - he can't remember!
Actually ... he also has too many siblings for DDT, and not enough half-siblings, as well - after I made contact, with documentation, I thought he was going to amend this, ... but it's been months, and it hasn't been altered. DDT only had two full sisters (Phoebe and Justina), ... and thirteen half-siblings (although only 8 of them survived to adulthood), one of whom was my 2xgt grandfather, Robert Gordon Tatham.
Phoebe, Duncan and Justina Tatham would have been about 6, 3 and 2 when their father, Christopher Tatham remarried ... so obviously Elizabeth Gordon must have been a strong woman, as she raised these children, plus her own brood ... and then, later, took in grandchildren, nephews, neices, in-laws, and an amazing assortment of other relatives! The front door must have been permanently chocked open!
Deb (still astounded)
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Ooops sorry, don't know why that came up twice!
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Deb
Not surprised that he made no alterations I think some people don't like to acknowledge their researh was inaccurate!
Oh wewll back to the net again
Robyn
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Whilst researching branches of the Lodington family, I have come across a Christopher Kemplay Tatham.
He was born in September Quarter, 1881 in Highgate, London and was the son of Thomas Clarke Tatham and Caroline Newsam Kemplay.
He married Alison Mary Sayer in September Quarter, 1925, in Hitchin district, Hertfordshire. They had at least two children, viz. Elizabeth A. K. Tatham and Michael K. Tatham.
Alison Mary Sayer, was born June Quarter, 1893, at Church End, Finchley, London and was the daughter of Michael John Sayer and his wife Emily May Lucy Dixey.
Although she is not a descendant of a Lodington, or a blood relative, Michael John Sayer's sister-in-law (Edith Alexander Bell, second wife of William Feetham Sayer) is.
Thomas Clarke Tatham (a Barrister) appears to be the son of John Laurence Tatham (also a Barrister) and his wife, Elizabeth Charlotte Clarke.
John Laurence Tatham was son of Thomas Trevor Tatham and Elizabeth. He had several siblings.
Do you know if these Tathams are related to yours in any way?
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Hi James,
I'm sorry, I really can't tell you whether they're related or not. I've just unrolled a family tree Denise sent to me (it reaches from one end of my hallway to the other, and continues most of the way across the living room!) compiled by one Richard Tatham ... and realised it only goes as from about 1580 to ... 1856 :-\
If you can find any of your Tatham ancestors prior to ... let's say 1860 ... with perhaps a connection to Lancs/Yorks (specifically the towns of Bentham, Aughton, Tatham, Ingleton and Wray), I might be able to tie something in.
Cheers
Deb
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I wont tell you how green I am about the family tree.........nope, I wont tell you :D :D :D
Guess we wont be seeing you for the rest of the day while you peruse said tree ;)
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Well ... rolling the rotten thing up again, anyway LOL
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Well ... rolling the rotten thing up again, anyway LOL
WHAT............. :o :o :o I'd be pouring over it with a fine tooth comb, you wouldn't see me for a week..... ::)
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Been there, done that, almost sent myself blind ... but simply forgot the names ran out at 1856! :-[
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I'll let you off then...........just this once ;D ;D ;D
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Deb,
This site has my Tathams on it: http://saxonlodge.net/index.php
I have yet to fully check it all but the line does go back to Stockton-on-Tees (and many cousin marriages link the families back up) and even further still, to Kirk Merrington, County Durham. No obvious link to Christopher Tatham yet though.
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Just a postscript, and possibly irrelevant ... have just discovered that Lola Montez visited Geelong during 1856. Hmmm ... given DDT's apparent proclivity for the ladies .... I wonder .... ?
Thank you James, I've taken a look, but like you, can't as yet find a connection.
Much as I'd like to close this thread, I don't think I can as yet. Will keep it open ftb, in hopes that something else might crop up.
Thank you very much to all who've participated :-*
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Something will crop up when you least expect it Deb.....trust me ;D ;D
Barbara
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Good morning all,
I just joined RootsChat so I'm green as green about the site & how it works.
Anyhow ... here we go.
As far as I know the Tathams on the Saxonlodge website (that's us) have zero connection with the Dunbar/Gordon lot. Not since 17th century anyhow.
Our keywords would be things like: Durham, lawyers, Highgate, South Africa.
Theirs would be: Yorkshire, doctors, Poplar, Australia.
Looks like you could also add the word "interesting" to them, perhaps less so to us.
Even so, I'd be v. interested in swapping data with anyone with relatives on the saxonlodge tree.
Robert
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Hi Robert, and welcome to Rootschat!
I agree, it looks as if the Saxonlodge Tathams, if connected, are 'way back on "The Tree" somewhere, and I haven't had the temerity to unroll The Tree for a while - that usually results in a migraine, from straining the eyes to read it!
Hope some of your Saxonlodge connections get in touch :)
Cheers
Deb
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Didn't I tell you Deb..........something always crops up ;D ;D
Welcome to Rootschat Robert.
Barbara
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UPDATE!
Thanks to Lisa in California (RC Aristocrat), we may well be onto something! See this thread: -
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,471451.msg3316728.html#msg3316728
The cousins and I are trying to see if we can get any further - one has made contact with Wyoming State Archives, who have acknowledged receipt of the enquiry, at least ... so fingers crossed, we may yet find out what actually happened to DJT!
Now ... if only we could find something similar on his prodigal father!
Many many thanks to those who've contributed, and more thanks again to Lisa!
Cheers
Deb
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Further to the success of this Scavenger Hunt - and with huuuuuuuuuge appreciation to everyone who contributed - ...
It appears that "English Jack" Tatham died in or near Laramie City in early 1884, aged only 28. The information was found amongst the Laramie City newspaper reports that RC-er Lisa put me onto, a little while ago. One of the Librarians was going to get back to me if she found out any more, but I haven't heard anything as yet.
I'd love to find out what caused his demise, even though I realise that's probably a bit morbid. However, we have got a half-successful Scavenger Hunt! Now .... if only we could find DJT's nuisance of a father!
Thanks again, everyone!
Deb
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Well, it's taken quite a while, ... but my esteemed fifth cousin Denise has finally managed to track down the prodigal Duncan Dunbar Tatham (whom we nicknamed DDT, seeing as he's proven to be almost as much trouble as the insecticide!).
After much diligent searching, Denise has discovered that DDT ("of Ambagamawa") died in 1863, and was buried on the 15th November, 1863, in St Paul's Church, in Kandy, Sri Lanka! More information is, hopefully, on its way - so there might be further news. I'm rapt - can you tell?!
Cheers
Deb