RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: kiwicatz on Monday 24 August 09 11:23 BST (UK)
-
Hello
I am visiting London in Oct/Nov and hope to finally be able to track down my great grandfather'd place of birth. He served in NZ during the Maori Wars and was discharged to Pension there and married and had a family. He (of course!) is the one person in the records I have found in NZ that doesn't have the place where he was from and what he did before he enlisted. His death and marriage certificates are no help.
Will I find any recruitment records for the 65th at the Archives - or is there anywhere else I can look. I know his friend was from Kent, but don't know if they were friends when they joined up or later on.
Grateful for any help/suggestions.
Regards
Jan Moon
NSW, Australia
-
Hi Jan
You have two chances of finding his place of birth from army records. If his service record survive it will tell you his parish of birth, and his occupation and age on enlistment. How these are filed in Kew depends upon his date of discharge, so you need to post his name and a better idea of when he was discharged.
If his papers have not survived you should certainly find him in the musters. Again depending upon the period his first and last entries may give the same information. If not you can see where the sergeants were out recruiting when he enlisted. Most men were discharged after 12 years service.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/step4.htm
The papers are in WO97, and the Muster Books and Pay Lists are in WO12. You should register in advance for a reader’s ticket to reduce the admin when you arrive. You will need a digital camera and a good magnifying glass, and you need to practice using the camera without flash. Anyone who goes with you will need a reader’s ticket as well.
Ken
-
Hello Ken
Thank you.
I have a copy of a Muster Roll (I think that's what it is - it's a pretty bad photocopy) it has
2080 Gell Henry from 01 April 1849 to 31 Jun 1849 (then 3 Muster periods) 1st is blank and the next 2 both say 'Duty'
(There is a notation on the back of the photocopy saying
'War Office 12/7419, pp 19-20 - Microfilm AJCP, PRO 3844
This little bit of info I have says the 65th were the 2nd Yorkshire (North Riding) Regiment.
From what I can see he was a Private, who arrived in NZ 184 ? aboard JAVA, and that he had travelled all the way from England, not joined the ship in Australia, as some did. The date of enlistment is missing, , he was discharged to Pension on 30 Sept 1859.
I don't know if the above adds anything.
Thanks for the info, and I will certainly contact the Archives and book in.
Regards
Jan Moon
-
Hi Jan
WO12/7419 is the muster book for the 1st Bn, 65th Regiment for 1849-1850 - the army year started 1st of April - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=6&CATID=3163808&SearchInit=4&CATREF=WO12%2F7419+
Whoever took the photocopy failed to record the location of the battalion, which is on the front or back cover! His discharge should be recorded in WO12/7430. If you change the reference in the top left box you can work out the boxes covering his 12 years.
AJCP appears to be some sort of Australian reference, so you may be able to do some work there.
The blank entry means he was on parade for the muster, and the other two mean he had other duties. You will also find men being sick, on guard, in cells or away on furlough etc. So a blank entry basically means ‘present’. The 65th Foot only had one battalion, but they would have also had a Depot that would stay in the UK recruiting and training. They will have a separate muster bound in with the one for the battalion. From the date of discharge I would look for an enlistment around 1847. So my guess is that the Java entry is for him arriving in NZ from the Depot after initial training.
Regarding his service papers, if they survive they should be in WO97/1586 - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=6&CATID=690527&SearchInit=4&CATREF=WO97%2F1586
This will be a microfilm. So in Kew you can order three muster books and while you are waiting for them (40-60 minutes) you can look for his service papers on microfilm. Or you can ask at your nearest archive in the A2A scheme if they can order a copy. The 65th became part of the Yorks and Lancs Regiment in 1881 and that is how the NA index things.
Ken
-
Hes on the medal rolls (WO100/18) as:
65th of Foot
2080 Pte Henry Gill (Dates in NZ) 18th May 1846-30th Sept 1859.
-
Thanks so much for that!
Should I book visit to rchives before I leave Australia, or will I have enough time when I get to UK - I will be there for 6 weeks
Regards
Jan
-
You don't need to book a visit. It will save time if your order your readers ticket online before you go. You still need to take the IDs they require.
Ken
-
I am also looking for information from the muster of the 65th Regiment of Foot. William Adams, the great-grandfather of my wife, was in the 65th from 1845 to 1850. He was born in Coleraine in 1825 and enlisted in 1845. He sailed on the Java and was discharged in Wellington, New Zealand, in 1850. He was the first white man to live in what is now Masterton and became the father of 16 children. He died in 1906.
I am interested in his movements from 1845 to 1850 and anything else the muster may contain about him.
If Jan or anyone else can help with any information, I would be most grateful.
Cassius
Australia
-
Hello Cassius
:( :( Unfortunately I left for UK before I saw your post, and due to having a small stroke whilst away, didn't remember about checking Rootschat.
I was very lucky that my visit to the Archives was before I got ill, as I found Henry's discharge papers, and info about his army service.
There was a book 'Discharged in NZ' (Soldiers of the Imperial Foot Regiments who took their discharge in NZ 1840-1870 by Hugh and Lyn Hughes and was published by the NZ Society of Genealogists. If you can get hold of that, or look at it it will have basic information about your man.
Let me know how you get on. I have a daughter in London who has a readers card for the Archives, unfortunately she is immobile at present after an operation, but in six weeks I may be able to persuade to go and look.
Good luck - it's frustrating isn't it?
-
Thanks, Jan
The NSW State Library in Sydneyhas a copy of the book you mentioned, as I found out from the library catalogue online. We live 100 kilometres from Sydney, and I can check out the book on my next visit to Sydney.
Cassius
-
Hi Cassius !
Don't know if you have this already but I'll post just in case !!
" Java,"
Departed Woolwich 18 May 1846, arrived Hobart Town 5 October 1846, passengers - 14 officers, 624 NCOs and men. 1 sergeant and 6 privates died on voyage.
Departed Hobart 8 October 1846 and arrived in Sydney 13 October 1846, passengers - in addition shipped the men who had arrived on the John Calvin.
Recharted to carry the Regiment to New Zealand - departed Sydney 8 November 1846, arrived Bay of Islands 19 November 1846 where 2 companies (200 men) disembarked, left for Auckland carrying 4 companies of the 65th and the detachment of the 58th that the 65th had relieved at Wahapu, arriving 22 November 1846.
-
Thanks, Liverpool Annie, for the very good information about the 65th in New Zealand.
Cassius
-
My paternal Grandfather John HALL (2449) and his father John HALL (929) were both in the 65th (at one time together but different Companies). JH (2449) attestation papers were in WO97 and I found them physically (and photocopied) some years ago at Kew. However, I could not find JH (929). Having said that, I have specific information about his attestation date (1861 Birr) from his Chelsea Pension Record. He was born Ballinakil, Loughrea, Galway in 1843(?) - father John HALL (farmer).
Is there sks who could keep an eye open for him in the Muster books next time they are at Kew? I need to get some more definite details on him and need also to confirm that he was preceded, and accompanied, by other family in the Regiment.
-
I have just seen by chance several interesting postings suggesting that William Adams may have changed his name before enlisting and may even have been married before sailing to NZ.
Unfortunately, I have not been able to find those postings.
In my previous e-mail I named Kiwi Adams whose real name is Graeme Adams as a person with a wealth of information about the Adams family. My recollection is that he cites some authorities pre-1845, although if William had changed his name to Adams, this may prove little or nothing .Geni contains some information. but there are websites devoted solely to the Adams family of Masterton.
I hope you can find something in the National Archives at Kew to clarify these issues.
Posted on behalf of Cassius who sent the message to me in error.
Regards
Sarah