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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Montgomeryshire => Topic started by: Danchaslyn on Saturday 22 August 09 23:54 BST (UK)
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Searching for any information please on the Northwood and Smith families.
So far, I know only that FRANCIS NORTHWOOD of District Newtown, Montgomeryshire, had a son:
FRANK NORTHWOOD SMITH, who may have been born on 15 July, 1878
FRANCIS NORTHWOOD, his mother, may have been born on 3 March, 1858?
I don't yet know who Frank's father was, or if he and Francis Northwood were married?
Frank Northwood Smith, married VANDA MAY BOUGHEY, but again, I don't know when, or where?
Vanda May Boughey's birthday may have been 11 may, 1906? ???
She and Frank later divorced, again, I don't know when, or where?
Any info will be much appreciated.
Cheers
Danchaslyn
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marriage vanda may boughey/frank.n.smith
marr reg date;jul/aug/sept 1927
place; liverpool
vol; 8b
page; 98
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Hi Wozzle
Thank you for your help, that will be a great start! ;D
Cheers
Danchaslyn
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there is this marriage that fits
name; frances northwood
y.o.r. 1884
qtr; july/ug/sept
dist; liverpool
vol; 8b
page; 36
on the same page; francis henry smith;
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then this birth in west derby which fits nicely
name; frank northwood smith
y.o.r. 1885
qtr; july/aug/sept
dist; west derby
county; lancashire
vol; 8b
page; 568.
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Hello Wozzle
Thank you, yes, what is confusing, is that my rellie is convinced that Francis Northwood, is spelt Francis, and not Frances ???, but I thought it likely, that Francis being female, might be spelt as Frances? ???
Certainly the marriage details you have just given would fit, wouldn't they?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
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Hello Wozzle
Yes, thanks, that birthdate of Frank Northwood Smith does seem to fit nicely.
Again, the info I was given previously, was he definitely was a 'July Baby', but not sure of the year, or area, but 1885 would be good and West Derby isn't to far away, is it? ???
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
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1891
RG12/2993/51/48
francis.h.smith age 31. b. brigstock,northants. occ. clothiers asst. head
frances age 33. b. n.wales newtown. wife.
frank.n. age 5. b. liverpool. son
frances.a. age 4. b. ditto. daughter.
percy.c. age 1. b. ditto. son.
living at; 18 fell street, west derby,liverpool,lancashire
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Hello Wozzle
Oh great! ;D
That Census info is spot on, isn't it? Young Frank Northwood Smith would be the right age from the previous birth year you gave me.
No wonder my rellie confused me with making out the female Frances, was Francis. Imagine a Francis and and Frances marrying each other! ;D
So West Derby is an area of Liverpool, not somewhere over near Derby!
Have you any idea what a Clothiers Asst. Head is please?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
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1861
RG9/959/59/15
henry smith age 39. b. street,somerset. head.
anna.m. smith age 32. b. trowbridge,wiltshire. wife.
francis.h.smith age 1. b. brigstock,northants. son.
living at; high street,brigstock,northants
reg.dist. thrapston
i cannot make out the occupation of henry.
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the occ is clothiers asst
the head stands for head of the household
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here is frances northwood birth reg
name; frances northwood
y.o.r. 1858
qtr; jan/feb/mar
dist; newtown
county; montgomeryshire,powys
vol; 11b
page; 215
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Hello Wozzle
Oh, so a clothing assistant in a store? At first I thought he was a clothing Dept Head in a Drapers Store? Silly me! :) :-X
You are moving so quickly, back another whole generation already, thank you. My dial-up internet is very slow, I can't post my replies quick enough, live to remotely to have broadband!
The family seemed to have moved around a bit, from county to county! ::)
Cheers
Danchaslyn
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here she is in 1861
RG9/4250/52/10
martha northwood age 45. b. shropshire. occ. housekeeper. head. (married)
james age 12. b. ditto. son
ann age 6. b. churchstoke,shropshire. daughter.
frances age 3. b. newtown,montgomeryshire. daughter.
john white age 27. occ. miner. lodger
thomas harris age 33. occ. cabinet maker. lodger.
living at;lodging house, park street,newtown,mongomeryshire.
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Hello Wozzle
Thank you also for Frances Northwood's birthdate.......definitely seems to confirm this time, the date I'd been given of 3 march, 1858 and Newtown! That's great, thank you! ;D
Cheers
Danchaslyn
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Hello Wozzzle
Hmmm......so France's mother, Martha Northwood, appears to have had James, Ann and Frances, quite late on in life, and no sign of a husband/father in Shropshire!
Wonder if she had a previous family and husband, at possibly at Churchstoke, Shropshire, where her daughter, Ann, was born?
This address(1861), where they are living with boarders, in Shropshire, is that the Churchstoke address, or is it another one?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
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1851
HO107/1983/308/16.
francis northwood age 40. b. montgomeryshire. occ. farmer of 97 acres. head
martha age 35. b. worthen,shropshire. wife.
thomas pugh age 10. b. shropshire. stepson
martha pugh age 7. b. ratlinghope,shropshire. step daughter.
george pugh age 5. b. ditto. stepson
james northwood age 2. b. ditto. son
----- poulter age 36. b. shropshire. occ. farm servant.
living at the holleys,ratlinghope,shropshire
reg.dist. clun
so martha was previously married to a mr pugh.
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here is the marriage of francis/martha
name; francis northwood
y.o.r. 1849
qtr; jan/feb/mar.
dist; shrewsbury
county; shropshire.
vol. 18
page; 228
on the same page; martha pugh
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Hello Wozzle
Thank you so much, what interesting info and cause for thought! ;)
So, wonder whatever happened to Mr Pugh, father of Thomas, Martha and George? ???
Ah, and thank you for the birthtown in Shropshire of Martha.
Ratlinghope, Shropshire, I'll have to google that one, not heard of it ::)
Wonder if Martha was widowed, or divorced?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
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the 1861 address is in newtown,wales not shropshire
will see if i can find out what happened to mr pugh
also will see if marthas husband francis northwood was married previously.
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Hello Wozzle
I'm always one post behind ;)
Thank you for the marriage details of Francis and Martha.
If this was Francis' first marriage, he married late in life, so wonder if he was perhaps married before, and had other children? ???
cheers
Danchaslyn
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Hello Wozzle
Must have been mental telepathy wondering if Francis had married before?! ;)
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
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here is martha and possibly husband in 1841 i say possibly because it does not actually state the relationship though it seems pretty obvious this is the case
1841
HO107/920/20/5/6
thomas pugh age 27. occ farmer.
martha pugh age 25
john pugh age 2
thomas pugh age 2mnths.
living at; ollies,ratlinghope,shropshire.
all born in shropshire
ollies in 1841 and hollies in 1851 i believe are one and the same farm so possibly in 1851 it was actually marthas farm not francis northwoods.
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RATLINGHOPE, Shropshire, is an isolated hamlet of only 100 people.
It's 4 miles NW of Church Streton and 12 miles S of Shrewsbury.
It lies between Stiperstons and Longmynd.
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her is probably thomas pugh death
nae; thomas pugh
y.o.r. 1846
qtr; jan/feb/mar.
dist; clun
vol; 18
page; 43.
so it is possible he died whilst martha was pregnant with george pugh aged 5 on the 1851 census.
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i cannot find francis northwood in the 1841 census for shropshire
maybe he was in his birth county of montgomeryshire will see if i can find him.
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Hello Wozzle
How very interesting and it certainly does look like the Hollies was Martha's farm, either by birth, or from Mr Pugh? ???
Makes one wonder then where Francis Northwood appeared from, to marry the farmer's widow (possibly?)?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
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Hello Wozzle
Maybe Farmer Pugh met with a farming accident, or died from an illness?
Wonder if Francis Northwood was working on the farm, or in a nearby village or town, and perhaps they met on market day? ???
What a good idea that Francis may have arrived from Montgomershire....
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
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i cannot pin francis northwood down in 1841
but i think i have found marthas marriage to thomas pugh
there eldest child in 1841 was 2
this marriage would fit
name; thomas pugh
y.o.r. 1837
qtr; oct/nov/dec.
dist; shrewsbury
vol; 18
page; 227.
on the same page martha davies.
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Hello Wozzle
Well, well, well, Martha Davies, so her descendants are even more correct thinking the family to be more Welsh ;)
Well done finding Martha's marriage to Thomas Pugh. The poor man was only 32 when he died.
And, The Hollies, after googling, I see is now a Nature Reserve! 8)
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
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if you go back to 1861 martha northwood is down as married living in motgomeryshire wales
her husband is not at home
taking a leap of faith if they were still living in montgomeryshire in the 1870s there is this death of marthas husband(possibly)
name; francis northwood
y.o.r. 1874
qtr; july/aug/sept
dist; newtown
est birth year 1810
age at death 64
the ages and dist seem to fit with where martha was in 1861
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if there is any censuses that i have not posted that you want looking up just let me know
i am off to watch the arsenal on sky now will be back later on today.
mick.
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Hello Wozzle
Francis Northwood really is a bit of a mystery man, a Scarlet Pimpernel! ;)
Yes, you certainly seem to have found his death as well! And the maths do work!
Wish we knew how he met and married Martha!!
I see to that Ratlinghope was made famous by the BBC TV sitcom, during 2005 when it was filmed there, "The Green, Green Grass".
Cheers
Danchaslyn
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Hello Wozzle/Mick
Enjoy your footie! ;D
What an amazing and great help you have been, so many questions answered, that have been unanswered for generations!
And, whole new mysteries posed!
Thank you, thank you, will be back on later am to-morrow....
Cheers
Danchaslyn
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Hello Wozzle
Thank you so much for your offer of more lookups, you are very generous!
1891 Census has Francis & Francis Smith in West Derby, with the three children, Frank, Frances and Percy Smith.
Were any more children born following this, possibly according to the 1901 -11 Censuses?
And:
1861 Census has Henry Smith & Anna M Smith living in
Brigstock with one child, Frances.
Are any more children born after Frances?
And: Farmer Thomas Pugh's death 1846 in the Dist of Clun. Would you
know please, what 'Clun' is, is this a full name or an abbreviation?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
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Hello Wozzle
And:
John Pugh 2 yr old son of Thomas & Martha Pugh,
as at 1841 Census, but he appears to have 'disappeared'
by the 1851 Census. Is there possibly a death date for him
please?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
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And, of course, THE DAVIES FAMILY ?? possibly of Shrewsbury or Worthen,
Shropshire?
MARTHA DAVIES, b. ? 1816, Worthen, Shropshire married
1. THOMAS PUGH, b1814, where?
d 1846 Jan/Feb/Mar, District Clun
2. FRANCIS NORTHWOOD, at Shrewsbury, Sh'pshre, Jan/Feb/Ma1849
When and where did MARTHA NORTHWOOD, formerly PUGH, nee DAVIES,
die please?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
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clun is a registration district in shropshire
that is the full name.
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death index
name; martha northwood
y.o.r. 1863
qtr; oct/nov/dec.
dist; newtown
county; montgomeryshire,powys
vol; 11b
page; 150
so if martha died in 1863 and francis northwood died in 1874
then we should find him in 1871 down as widowed
will have a look on 1871.
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cannot find francis in 1871 at this moment?
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with regard to john pughs death
the reg dist for ratlinghope which was where the family were living in 1841 is clun
there are 2 deaths of a john pugh between 1841-1851 in that district
unfortunately during this time it does not state how old they were at death so i cannot be sure this is him.
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Hello Wozzle
Thank you for advising that Clun is the full name of the district in Shropshire.
Also for all your further help! ;D
Would be VERY interesting to know which John Pugh, was Thomas & Martha's deceased son, and how he died? Pity there are two John Pugh deaths between 1841-1845!
Francis Northwood, as usual, a man of mystery. Hope he turns up on the 1871 Census soon.
Wonder if after Martha's death in 1863, he HAD to leave the farm, The Hollies, as it had been Martha's farm, possibly inherited from her former husband, Thomas Pugh?
Well, certainly, by the 20C it is no longer in either the Pugh of the Northwood families, but is a Nature Reserve.
So both Martha and Francis Northwood, went back to his birth dist of Newtown, Montgomeryshire, in later life!
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with regard to further children of henry/anna smith
1871
RG10/1507/43/7
henry smith age 49. b. somerset. occ. schoolmaster. head.
anna maria smith age 42. b. trowbridge. occ. schoolmistress. wife.
francis henry smith age 11. b. brigstock. son.
walter ingram smith age 8. b. ditto. son
adeline beatrice smith age 5. b. ditto. daughter.
arnold edward smith age 2. b. ditto. son.
clara ingram age 36. b. trowbridge. occ. housekeeper. sister in law. (unmarried)
eliza roe age 25. b. northants. occ. domestic servant.
living at;high street, brigstock,northants
so now you also have anna marias maiden name ingram
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with regard to your question regarding if there were any more children born to francis/frances smith after 1891
here is the 1901 census as you can see there are no other children with them
1901
RG13/3404/198/34
francis.h.smith age 41. occ. tailors asst.
frances smith age 43
frank.n.smith age 15 occ. commercial clerk
frances.a.smith age 14
percy.c.smith age 11
living at;poulton cum seacombe,cheshire
reg.dist. birkenhead.
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with regard to where thomas pugh was born. On the 1841 census he states shropshire
that is as much as we know for certain
according to the census he was 27 in 1841 so born 1814 the ages are not always right on the censuses specially the 1841 census
in 1841 they were in ratlinghope which as you pointed out is near church stretton
there is this from the IGI
possibly yours but no way of knowing unless you get thomas and marthas marr cert even then you could not be sure
IGI ext.rec.
christening
name thomas pugh
date; 9th nov 1812
place; church stretton,shropshire
parents; john pugh-mary pugh.
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Hello Wozzle
Thank you, thank you, for all your hard work! ;D
It's certainly a very great possibly, from IGI that the birth date and place of birth, you have given me, for Thomas Pugh is correct.
And, of course, the bonus of who his parents may have been.
At this stage, as we're anxious to find out as much as possible about primarily the 'blood' relatives, we'll leave sending off for Thomas & Martha's Marriage Certificate, for the timebeing, maybe at a later stage.
It'll of course, be the DAVIES family now, whose trail we'll be on!
Cheers
D :)anchaslyn
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Hello Wozzle
:)
Thank you so much for the info giving details of children in the household of FRANCIS & FRANCES as recorded in the Census of 1901.
I wonder if we can safely assume there were only three? It certainly would appear that way.
Once again, many thanks
Danchaslyn
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Hello Wozzle
Well, again, thank you. It is so good to see the family in full, from the 1871 Census, you have given in Reply #41, of HENRY & ANNA MARIA SMITH.
And, the maiden surname of Anna Maria Smith, nee INGRAM! ;D
So, would be absolutely delighted if we can find out all we can, about both the DAVIES and the INGRAM FAMILIES?? ???
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
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o.k will see what i can find out about the ingram family.
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here is anna maria smith nee ingram in 1841
HO107/1182/9/28/4.
james webb age 48. b. in county. occ. independant means.
maria webb age 40. b. in county.
william webb age 15. b. in county.
mary webb age 12. b. in county.
maria webb age 10. b. in county.
clara webb age 7. b. in county.
albert webb age 7. b. in county.
arthur webb age 5. b. in county.
nelson webb age 3mnths. b. in county.
then in the same house but seperate
ann bishop age 20. b. in county. occ. female servant.
betty bigwood age 15. b. in county. occ. female servant.
anna ingram age 12. b. in county. pupil
living at mead street,melksham,trowbridge,wiltshire.
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here is anna maria ingrams christening
name; anna maria ingram
date; 27th july 1828
place; saint james,trowbridge,wiltshire.
parents; edward/charlotte ingram.
ext.rec. IGI
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christenings of anna marias siblings
charlotte
27th july 1828
adelaide
15th feb 1832
clara
15th feb 1832
fanny harvey ingram
29th dec 1833
all events took place at saint james,trowbridge
all are ext.rec. IGI
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here is anna marias parents in 1841
in the workhouse unfortunately
HO107/1188/10/folio missing/1.
edward ingram age 45, b. out of county
charlotte ingram age 45. b. out of county.
eliza ingram age 15. b. out of county.
charlotte ingram age 15. b. in county.
clara ingram age 11. b. in county.
adelade ingram age 9. b. in county.
fanny ingram age 7. b. in county.
living at;melksham union workhouse.steeple ashton,wiltshire
so there eldest child was born out of county
as were edward/charlotte.
will see if i can find where the parents were born by hopefully finding them in 1851.
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1851
HO107/1840/233/7
edward ingram age 56. b. gaulton,dorset. occ. master of workhouse. head.
charlotte age 58. b. dorchester,dorset. occ. workhouse matron. wife.
clara age 20. b. trowbridge. daughter.
living at steeple ashton,melksham,wiltshire.
reg.dist. melksham
so it appears he was not in the workhouse in 1841 but was actually working there.
will see if i can find there marriage in dorset.
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cannot find the marriage anywhere in dorset or indeed anywhere?
will continue on with anna maria you have her in 1841
so will look for her in 1851
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1851`
HO107/1745/26/2.
peter gray age 53. b. fotheringhay,northants. occ. plumber and glazier. head. (widowed)
harriet.e.gray age 23. b. brigstock. occ. housekeeper. daughter.
george.e.gray age 21. b. ditto. occ. plumber. son.
william gray age 19. b. ditto. occ. plumbers asst.son.
charles gray age 18. b. ditto. occ. plumbers asst. son.
anna maria ingram age 22. b. trowbridge. occ. infant schoolmistress. lodger.
living at; hale hill court,brigstock,northants
reg.dist. thrapston
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this is strange
anna smith 1851 census northants
1861 census northants
1871 census northants
but this is the only marriage of a henry smith and anna maria ingram that i can find
date; 25th aug 1856
place; saint silas,liverpool,lancashire
only a submitted entry though on the IGI
anyway you have her up to 1871
will continue with her .
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1881
RG11/1580/40/5.
henry smith age 59. b. street,somerset. occ. school master. head.
anna age 52. b. trowbridge. occ. schoolmistress. wife.
walter.j.smith age 18. b. brigstock. occ. carpenter. son.
adelina.b.smith age 15. b. ditto. daughter.
arnold.e.smith age 12. b. ditto. son.
eliza.a.roe age 35. b. northants. occ. domestic servant.
living at; latham street schoolhouse,brigstock,northants.
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by 1891 henry seems to have died
1891
RG12/1220/37/2
anna maria smith age 62. b. trowbridge. occ. schoolmistress. head. (widowed)
adelina.b.smith age 25. b. brigstock. occ. asst. teacher. daughter.
arnold.e.smith age 22. b. ditto. occ. carpenter. son.
eliza roe. age 45. b. northants. occ. domestic servant.
living at; brigstock,northants.
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1901
RG13/1452/40/21
annie.m.smith age 72. b. trowbridge. occ. retired schoolmistress. head.
adelina.b.smith age 35. b. brigstock. occ. asst. teacher.daughter.
eliza.a.roe age 55. b. sudborough,northants. occ. mothers help..
living at; hall hill,brigstock,northants.
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here i believe is possibly annas death
name; anna maria smith
y.o.r. 1903
qtr; jan/feb/mar.
dist; thrapston
vol; 3b
page; 120
age at death; 74
est.birth year. abt.1829
the age and area match up to what was stated on the 1901 census.
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Hello Wozzle
I am absolutely reeling with all the amazing info you have given to me! :o
Thank you so, so much ;D
It will take me a little while now to absorb and work it all out, then I'll be a better position to reply properly. ;)
In deep gratitude
Danchaslyn
:)
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Hello Wozzle
What epic help you have given, can't tell you how grateful I am. I've had a chance now to digest it! ;D ;D Thank you, thank you.
Firstly, I have to say what a stalwart Eliza A Roe has been to Anna Maria Smith! Staying with the family, through the decades, as domestic servant and in later life, as that, and as mother's help. Was glad to see in the 1901 Census, she was born in Sudborough, Northants.
No doubt, on the 1911, she would still be there with the family, age 65?!
Also, that Henry Smith, obviously died between the Census of 1881 & 1891, presumably at Brigstock, Northants?
So good to see the progress of this family through the Censuses! Thank you.
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
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So, if Anna Maria Smith died at Thrapston, age 74, during 1903, wonder where that left Adelina or Adeline Beatrice Smith, age 37, and trusty stalwart, Eliza A Roe, then aged 57?
In the 1901 Census, Wozzle, as they were still living at Hall Hill, Brigstock, Northants, after possibly having to leave Latham Street Schoolhouse, Brigstock, Northants, (according to the Census of 1881), after Anna Maria's retirement as a Schoolmistress, wonder if they all moved to Thrapston, or possibly if it was a hospital in Thrapston, which Anna died in?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
Perhaps
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Hello Wozzle
With regard to Reply #56 and the difficulties in finding a marriage record for Henry Smith and Anna Maria Smith, nee Ingram.
Hhmmmm, we all know that IGI can be very, very helpful, but sometimes unreliable, but all the same, as you say, three Censuses give Henry & Anna Smith living in Northants, but in the middle of it, it would appear that their marriage may have been at Saint Silas, Liverpool, Lancashire, on the 25 August, 1856.
In those days, would a couple, for whatever reason, have been able to marry in a different parish to the one in which they were living, maybe because they went 'home' closer to other relatives for the wedding?
If we were to assume, from Anna's ages, as given on the various Censuses, that she was born round about 1829, at Trowbridge, that would make Anna, age 27 at the time of this marriage, maybe a little older than usual, for the time?
As I'm not sure of Henry Smith's DOB (unless I've missed it here somewhere, sorry?), but his age as given in various censuses, would place him at round about age 34, after being born +/- 1822?
And, they had only three children, so I'm wondering if either, or both, were married before, and if there are half-brothers and sisters, to Walter J. Smith, Adeline/a Beatrice Smith and Arnold Edward Smith?
Is Walter's second name, John, please?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
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Well, Wozzle, again thank you, so following the trail even further back (how exciting!) you've discovered that Edward Ingram was born in 1794, in Gaulton, Dorset.
And, his wife, Charlotte Ingram, nee ????, born 1792, in Dorchester, Dorset.
Well, what a surprise, that Edward & Charlotte Ingram were the Master & Matron of the Melksham Union Workhouse, Staple Ashton, Wiltshire!
Again, another surprise, in that their daughter, Anna Maria Ingram, was living at age 12 with another family, The Webb Family of independent means at Mead Street, Melksham, Trowbridge, Wiltshire.
Why would this be? Would it be to remove Anna from the workhouse environment, or was Anna possibly some kind of domestic servant to the Webbs?
Anna's siblings, Eliza & Charlotte, b 1826? and Adelaide, b. 1828? and Clara, b. 1830? and Fanny H b. 1834? don't appear to be living with the Webbs?
Maybe they were sent to live with other people to?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
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anna maria ingram was living with the webb family
she was down as a pupil so possibly some kind of private school
also on the 1911 census i can tell you that adeline was still in thrapston reg dist
also in the same household was eliza roe
i cannot post the full census details because of the 100 year rule with regard to censuses
also to veiw the actual image you have to pay for credits
i do have some credits for the 1911 census online but would like to keep them for my own research.
here is the link for the site if you want to apply for credits yourself
www.1911census.co.uk
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Hello Wozzle
In the Census of 1851, when Anna Maria Ingram is living with the Gray Family of Hale Hill Court, Brigstock, Northants, as a Lodger, her age is given as 22 years.
Typical, for Censuses then, as that would make her born in 1829, and of course the christening records you found for her, and for her siblings, give her as having a joint christening, with her sister Charlotte, of 27 July, 1828, which would pre-date her birth year, as per 1851 Census.
So, I'm guessing that the 1851 Census has her as being older than she actually was, maybe she was born early 1828, with Charlotte having been born in 1826, hence their joint christening?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
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Hello Wozzle
Oh ok, I'd seen that Anna was a pupil at age 12, whilst living with the Webbs, but wondered if that was an euphemism, but think your explanation that she may have been at some sort of private school, the right one, thank you!
Also, it is endearing, that both Adeline B. Smith and Eliza Roe, were still living together, as at the 1911 Census.
Thank you for the link to the 1911, wasn't sure what happens there, as here North of the Border, have not yet had access!
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
-
with regard to walters middle name i now believe the middle initial is i for ingram not j
birth reg.
name; walter ingram smith
y.o.r. 1862
qtr; july/aug/sept.
dist; thrapston
vol; 3b
page; 161.
have not had time to look at your lipscot post yet
have to go to work shortly
so possibly have a look tomorrow if i get time.
mick.
-
1851
HO107/1840/233/7
edward ingram age 56. b. gaulton,dorset. occ. master of workhouse. head.
charlotte age 58. b. dorchester,dorset. occ. workhouse matron. wife.
clara age 20. b. trowbridge. daughter.
living at steeple ashton,melksham,wiltshire.
reg.dist. melksham
so it appears he was not in the workhouse in 1841 but was actually working there.
will see if i can find there marriage in dorset.
do you want me to see what happened to anna marias parents and siblings in the later years.
-
:)
Hello Wozzle
That is interesting about Walter I.Smith, and thank you for his birth date details!
And, YES please, if you're offering, and not to busy, would love you to find out as far back, and forward, as you can, about Anna Maria's parents and siblings.
Thank you and Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
-
:)
Hello Wozzle
And, of course, if not to much trouble, any info about VANDA MAY BOUGHEY, married to FRANK NORTHWOOD SMITH, at Liverpool, Jul/Aug/Sept, 1927.
From family folklore passed down, I've been told, that Frank Northwood Smith, Grandson of Henry and Anna Maria Smith, and his wife, Vanda May Boughey, did divorce. Don't yet know, when, or where?
I don't know if Frank Northwood Smith had any siblings?
And all I know about Vanda May Smith, is that she married for the second time, I think to a Harry, or Henry Bull, probably still in the Birkenhead area?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
-
yyou have the ingram family in 1841,1851
here is part of the family in 1861
RG9/1294/139/7.
edward ingram age 66. b. galton,dorset. occ. master of workhouse. head. (married)
clara ingram age 26. b. trowbridge. daughter.
james bell age 53. b. ditto. occ. schoolmaster.
mary ricker age 53. b. bath. occ. industrial lmistress.
and various pupils and servants
living at;union workhouse,steeple ashton,melksham,wiltshire
cannot find charlotte but there is a death index for someone of that name in melksham in the july qtr
the census for 1861 was taken on the night of the 7th april so she should be on it somewhere
will have a look again for her.
-
found her
1861
RG9/720/6/9
charles edmands(or edwards) age 29. b. newbury,berkshire.
fanny age 27. b. trowbridge. wife.
florence age 5mnths. b. newbury. daughter.
charlotte ingram age 69. b. dorchester. visitor.
adelaide ingram age 28. b. trowbridge. visitor.
amelia alfred age 17. b. trowbridge
living at; newbury,berkshire
think the fanny edmands is actually charlottes daughter as on the 1841 census there is a fanny ingram age 7 who was born in trowbridge
-
here is further proof that fanny edmands is charlottes daughter
marriage index
name; fanny harvey ingram
y.o.r. 1861
qtr. jan/feb/mar.
dist; melksham
vol; 5a
page; 133
on the same page; charles edmunds.
-
having trouble placing edward ingram after 1861
cannot find a death or census entry
clara(daughter) who is with him in 1861 is in brigstock in 1871 with her sister anna maria smith you already have this entry
will see if i can find clara in later censuses.
-
possibly clara this one is in newbury dist the same dist as her sister fanny
age fits with the 1841,1851 census
1881
RG11/1271/108/19
clara ingram age 51. b. trowbridge. head. no occupation.
living at; 2,cottage,boxford,newbury,berkshire.
1891
RG12/970/30/13.
clara ingram age 60. b. trowbridge. head. (no occupation)
living at; 10,gilder square,speen,newbury,berkshire.
1901
RG13/1121/107/13
clara ingram age 71. b. trowbridge. head (living on own means)(unmarried)
living at; 10,gilder square,speen,newbury,berkshire
-
have to go offline now for a few days got visitors over the bank holiday
will be back online next tuesday and will continue then.
mick.
-
adelade ingram aged 9 on the 1841 census is not with family in 1851
here she is and with her sister as well
1851
HO107/1697/85/17
alexander mayor age 57. b. scotland. head.
martha mayor age 60. b. london. wife.
eleanor mayor age 24. b. thames ditton,surrey. daughter.
charles mayor age 21. b. warwickshire. son.
adelaide ingram age 17. b. wiltshire. pupil. (scholar)
fanny.h.ingram age 16. b. ditto. pupil. (scholar)
living at; motague road,uxbridge common,hillingdon,middlesex
reg.dist. uxbridge
i cannot make out the occupations of the other people on this entry.
-
1861
you have already adelade is visiting in newbury at her sister fanny edmunds.
in 1871 there is this entry in 1871 but i am not 100% sure this is her age is out and where has louisa popped up from she is not on any other census that i have posted with regard to the ingram family
1871
RG10/1571/51/6.
louisa ingram age 44. b. dorchester. occ. draper .head.(unm)
adelaide ingram age 32. b. trowbridge. occ. drapers asst. sister.
sarah newman age 24. b. wimbolton,norfolk occ. drapers asst.
louisa collis age 23. b. dunstable,bedfordshire. occ. straw hat finisher .lodger.
living at; 36 castle street,luton,beds
-
leave adelaide for now as the above is the only one i can find
as previously stated have to go offline
you have a few days to digest the info given
will look for any ingram children entries that i have missed when i come back.
-
:)
Once again, Wozzle, many, many thanks, and as you say, over the next few days, I'll digest and assimilate, and collate and greatly look forward to your return, and travelling once again, on this exciting journey! ;D
Thank you and Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
-
here is anna marias parents in 1841
in the workhouse unfortunately
HO107/1188/10/folio missing/1.
edward ingram age 45, b. out of county
charlotte ingram age 45. b. out of county.
eliza ingram age 15. b. out of county.
charlotte ingram age 15. b. in county.
clara ingram age 11. b. in county.
adelade ingram age 9. b. in county.
fanny ingram age 7. b. in county.
living at;melksham union workhouse.steeple ashton,wiltshire
so there eldest child was born out of county
as were edward/charlotte.
will see if i can find where the parents were born by hopefully finding them in 1851.
will see if i can follow charlotte aged 15 in 1841
-
1851
HO107/1744/60/16
ann cave age 70. b. northants. occ. grazier with 3 servants. head.
thomas pain age 20. b. geddington,northants. occ. farm servant.
samuel reynolds age 19. b. kensworth,herefordshire. occ. shepherd.
charlotte ingram age 25. b. trowbridge. occ. schoolmistress.
living at; warkton,northants
reg.dist. kettering.
-
1861
RG9/955/67/14
john clipstone age 35. b. warkton,northants. occ. butcher and flour dealer. head.
eliza clipstone age 30. b. lowick,northants. wife.
charles.j.clipstone age 5. b. warkton,northants. son
fanny.e.clipstone age 3. b. ditto. daughter.
charlotte ingram age 32. b. trowbridge. occ. schoolmistress. lodger.
harriet hatfield age 14. b. lowick,northants. visitor.
living at;warkton,northants
reg.dist. kettering.
-
cannot find her after the last entry
will have a further look later
-
:)
Welcome Back Wozzle!! ;D
Well to have found CHARLOTTE INGRAM, in so many different households, in different locations, is nothing short of Genius! ::)
Thank you so much!
I wonder which schools she used to teach at?
Cheers and thank you
Danchaslyn
:)
-
:)
Hello Wozzle
Hope you had a great weekend? ;)
How very odd how "Louisa Ingram" just popped up from nowhere?! :o
Longing to get on this trail with you again, but have to dash out for a while...will be back later
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
-
:)
Hello Wozzle
Hope you had a great weekend? ;)
How very odd how "Louisa Ingram" just popped up from nowhere?! :o
Longing to get on this trail with you again, but have to dash out for a while...will be back later
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
not sure if lousa ingram is yours am trying to trace her back to hopefully with her parents here she is in 1861
-
1861
RG9/1122/69/32
louisa ingram age 32. b. dorcheester. occ. schoolmistress. head. (umm)
living at;audley end, saffron walden,kent
still not sure about louisa. In 1871 she is a draper along with adelaide the occ in 1861 schoolmistress
is good though.
-
think this might be her in 1851 though her age has been transcribed as 28 the actual image looks like either 20 or 22
1851
HO107/1476/294/4.
louisa ingram. age ? . b. dorchester. occ. governess. resident. (unm)
elizabeh meadows age 30. b. old sodbury,gloucs. occ. teacher in district school. resident. (marr)
living at; 13,market street mews,st.george,hanover square,mayfair,middx.
reg.dist. st.georges,hanover square.
very upmarket area.
-
have had a long hard look for charlotte ingram after 1861
she does not appear on any census after 1861
there are a few death indexes of a charlotte ingram between 1861 and 1871
but none in northants where she was living on the 1861 census
though she could have moved from northants after 1861.
also a few marriages that could have been her
or maybe she emigrated.
i am afraid i can go no further with charlotte.
as for louisa the only one i could find in 1841 that could have been her was with her parents
and her fathers name was william,
so stuck on that as well.
so if that louisa is not yours then the adelaide who states she is the sister on the 1871 census
is not yours either
i still have this feeling she is yours but cannot prove it
i might go forward after 1871 to see if anything ties up with adelaide and louisa.
-
:)
Hello Wozzle
Am sure you feel exactly the same way, in that, nothing, but nothing is to surprising any longer, when one is on these trails?! ::) ::)
Hmmm, so Louisa Ingram starts off as a Draper, then school mistress, then governess. Do you think this is the same Louisa as the one with Adelaide? It looks like it doesn't it?
And, in Mayfair!! ;D
But, have I missed something along the way, has she different parents do you think, is she perhaps a cousin?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
-
:)
Hello Wozzle
What a puzzle the three girls, Charlotte, Louisa and Adeladie are! ::)
Wonder then if Charlotte maybe as you say, did either marry, or, emigrated? Best to leave her for the timebeing, maybe we can find her on a shipping passenger list, leaving the UK, sometime after 1861.
I hope she didn't die?! Anyway, as you suggest, we'll leave her for the timebeing.
Hopefully there'll be more positive info about Adelaide and Louisa?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
-
louisa the other way round
1851; governess
1861; schoolmistress
1871; draper.
-
:)
Hello Wozzle
Just a thought, as these "Ingram Girls" are proving so elusive, unless you are enjoying the "chase", shall we perhaps deviate from that particular trail?
Of course, it's completely up to you? I don't mind either way, just so grateful for any info on this family at all.
Perhaps with regard to Reply #36 we could attempt to find the DAVIES FAMILY of somewhere, possibly in, or near Shropshire?
And, Reply #72, we could possibly follow the trail of the BOUGHEY FAMILY of Birkenhead?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
-
:)
Oh I see, that IS an interesting way for the occupations of Louisa to have changed!
Mind you, the progression from Governess, to Schoolmistress, yes, but, then to Draper?
Maybe Louisa always had a natural talent for dressmaking etc, learnt it at her mother's knee, or whatever, and then for whatever reason, in middleage took this up as her fulltime profession?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
-
cannot find adelaide and louisa in 1881 but here is the 1891
1891
RG12/1274/42/3.
louisa ingram age 61. b. dorset. occ. confectioner. head.
adelaide age 48. b. trowbridge. occ. confectionery assistant. sister.
ralph bachufen age 25. b. swaziland. occ. foreign correspondent. boarder.
sidney burgen age 21. b. luton. occ. asst. chemist.. boarder.
living at; 34,castle street,luton,beds.
will just let you know that there is a death in 1905 in luton of an adelaide ingram
will look for the boughey family and davies family.
do you have them on any census already
-
not sure if you have this already
birth index
name ; vanda may boughey
y.o.r. 1906
qtr; apr/may/jun
dist; birkenhead
vol; 8a
page; 601.
to be absolutely certain we are following the right boughey family back
you would need to buy the birth cert of vanda may or the wedding cert
unless you already know her fathers name and occupation
it would tell you that on the marr cert.
in the meantime i will look on the 1911 to see if she is on it
i have a few credits so might use one of them to see if it shows her parents
if we can find them on the 1911 census then we can go back in time without the need for the certs.
-
she is not on 1911 census as vanda may or vanda or may
could have been mistranscribed but to find out i would have to use my credits
and while i do not mind using one lot of creditss
but i am loathe to use them unless i am sure it is the right person.
-
think you would definitely need either the marr or birth cert to follow this line back.
-
1851
HO107/1983/308/16.
francis northwood age 40. b. montgomeryshire. occ. farmer of 97 acres. head
martha age 35. b. worthen,shropshire. wife.
thomas pugh age 10. b. shropshire. stepson
martha pugh age 7. b. ratlinghope,shropshire. step daughter.
george pugh age 5. b. ditto. stepson
james northwood age 2. b. ditto. son
----- poulter age 36. b. shropshire. occ. farm servant.
living at the holleys,ratlinghope,shropshire
reg.dist. clun
so martha was previously married to a mr pugh.
martha states she was born in worthen on the 1841 there are 20 entries in worthen with the surname davis none of these were old enough to be marthas parents but e few could have been her siblings again you would need her marr cert to find he fathers name and occ, so stuck on this as well
had a look on the i.g.i but to many martha davis,s to find her birth
-
found this might be of interest
we know that louisa ingram was a draper in 1871 and was born in dorchester
we also know that charlotte ingram (possibly some relation of louisa) the wife of edward ingram (workhouse master) was born in dorchester.
on the 1830 pigots directory of dorchester there is a sarah ingram whose trade is given as draper
possibly some relation or maybe not?
-
:)
Hello Wozzle
Re your Post #98, so the two Ingram sisters became confectioners, and shared a house with two gentleman boarders, as at the Census of 1891.
Very interesting that both gentlemen appear to be of Continental heritage, and the one from Swaziland, could be from missionary stock.
And the possible death of Adelaide Ingram in 1905.
Thank you again for all of this.
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
-
:)
Hello Wozzle
About Vanda May Boughey, all I had was the suggestion from a rellie, that she may have been born round about 11 May, 1906, which fits with her birthdate you have found, so thank you.
Quite understand where you are coming from about possibly follwing a false lead and wasting everything, so I've emailed a rellie asking if they know who her parents were, and/or what her father's name and occupation was?
We'll see what we hear from that, and if not enough, I'll order her Birth Certificate probably. Which would have more details, the BC, or her Marriage Cert?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
-
:)
Searching for any information please on the Northwood and Smith families.
So far, I know only that FRANCIS NORTHWOOD of District Newtown, Montgomeryshire, had a son:
FRANK NORTHWOOD SMITH, who may have been born on 15 July, 1878
FRANCIS NORTHWOOD, his mother, may have been born on 3 March, 1858?
I don't yet know who Frank's father was, or if he and Francis Northwood were married?
Frank Northwood Smith, married VANDA MAY BOUGHEY, but again, I don't know when, or where?
Vanda May Boughey's birthday may have been 11 may, 1906? ???
She and Frank later divorced, again, I don't know when, or where?
Any info will be much appreciated.
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
Hello Wozzle
VANDA MAY SMITH, nee Boughey, divorced Frank Northwood Smith, sometime after her first daughter was born August, 1928. She went on to marry a HARRY or HENRY BULL, I think.
Cheers
Danchaslyn
-
Sorry, but somehow or other my new post got caught up in the 'old' quoted post of above.
-
:)
Thank you, Wozzle, for the post on Sarah Ingram, Draper of Dorchester.
That is very interesting and she may well "tie" into the Ingram ladies in the future.
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
-
:)
Very chuffed! ;D
From a Grandson of VANDA MAY BOUGHEY this information, to-day:
Vanda May Boughey's FATHER: FRANK BOUGHEY
b. 12 November, don't know year of birth
MOTHER: HELEN BOUGHEY, nee WALMSLEY
Cheers
Danchaslyn
-
here is their marriage
name; helen walmsley
y.o.r. 1905
qtr; oct/nov/dec
dist; birkenhead.
vol; 8a
page; 955.
on the same page; frank james boughey.
-
:)
Thank you Wozzle, for their marriage details, that was quick!
I've had a quick scout around IGI and it would appear from the British 1881 Census that there are about three Frank Boughey's, as sons, in households.
All around Cheshire, but with one of the Frank Boughey's being born in Pendleton, Lancs.
Also, so many "Ellen Walmsleys" and only one Helen Walmsley, but she, I think would be to old (possibly the mother, or grandmother?) to be Frank's wife.
I'm still trying to find out from their grandson, what Frank's occupation was?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
-
have found a philip.s.boughey and a frank.s.boughey in birkenhead with their parents on the 1901 census
when i had a look at the actual image the s looked more like a j than an s both of these were born in australia
then i had a look on the 1911 census for philip.s.boughey in birkenhead could only find a philip john boughey
he was the right age for the one born in australia
so if the middle initial of s was wrong for philip the middle initial was wrong for frank and probably a j
will spend some credits to see where philip was born and who is with him on the 1911 census
if it seems to tie in with the 1901 entry then i will post the 1901 entry that i found
i will also send you by personal message the 1911 entry.
fingers crossed.
-
definite possibility this is your man
1901
RG13/3401/113/35
william boughey age 41. b. seacombe,cheshire. occ. builder. head.
susannah boughey age 38. b. liverpool. wife.
william boughey age 16. b. south australia. occ. apprentice bricklayer. son.
frank.j.boughey age 15. b. south australia. occ. apprentice joiner. son.
philip.j.boughey age 10. b. victoria,australia. son.
elsie boughey age 4. b. new brighton,cheshire. daughter.
vera boughey age 2. b. ditto. daughter.
sarah esher or usher age 70. b. liverpool. visitor.(widowed)
living at; 2,shiel road,new brighton,liscard,wallasey,cheshire
reg.dist. birkenhead.
-
:)
Wozzle, what a surprise!! :o
I'll leave here a while and email the grandson again to ask he if he knows anything of an "Aussie connection"?!
!!!
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
-
o.k i will go and make a cup of tea and come back in 30 mins
if this is possibly the right family then i will carry on with them
-
if it is the right family here is william/susannahs marr index
name; william joseph boughey
y.o.r. 1882
qtr; oct/nov/dec
dist; birkenhead
vol. 8a
page; 773
on the same page; susannah coombes.
so their eldest son william aged 16 in 1901 was born in australia
which means they went to australia between 1882-1885
elsie boughey was born according to the 1901 census in cheshire in 1897
phliip boughey was born in 1891 in australia
which means they must have come back to england between 1891-1897
will see if i can find them on the shipping records
-
there is a william boughey on the ships list
unfortunately i do not have worldwide membership of ancestry so cannot see for certain if it is the right one.
-
william boughey
1881 RG11/3589/102/49
1871; RG10/3753/56/30
1861; RG9/2648/81/16
birth index
william joseph boughey
y.o.r. 1860
qtr. jan/feb/mar
dist; wirrall
vol; 8a
page; 415.
william joseph bougheys parents were james boughey and mary catherine pemberton they were married in 1854 in the reg dist of wirrall
william josephs father james boughey
1851; HO107/2174/242.
1841; HO107/128/8/7/8.
james bougheys parents were joseph/ann boughey
if he is yours then i will post the full census entries
-
:)
Hello Wozzle
Once again, a brilliant number of details to mull over, thank you very much.
So far, no second reply yet from Vanda May Boughey's grandson, am sure he will have replied by to-morrow (we have a slight time difference!).
All that you have posted, conjures up some very interesting thoughts and further questions indeed.
I'll have to be quick and return later, when once again www is not so busy....so in the meanwhile....
Wonder where Frank J Boughey, and William Boughey, sons of William & Susannah Boughey, both born abt 1886 & 1885 respectively in Victoria, S. Australia, were during the British Census' of 1911, as they both don't appear to be at home with the rest of the family at 12 Shiel Rd, New Brighton, Liscard?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
-
frank would not have been at home with his parents in 1911
remember he had married helen walmsley in 1905
still cannot find him and his wife in 1911
will see if i can find william in 1911.
-
:)
Hello Wozzle
It's a shame about the shipping lists, but thank you for trying.
How usual was it for folk in the building industry, in the 1880's do you think, to up sticks, head for the Antipodes, stay a few years only, then return to their origins?
I'm so curious as to why they did it? Perhaps their Great Grandson will have the key? Fingers crossed! ;)
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
-
:)
Oh yes, thank you Wozzle, I did think that at one stage about Frank, and then forgot, but especially as Vanda May was born in the first half of 1906.
:-[
-
william boughey junior is in birkenhead in 1911
aged 27 born australia
would need to spend credits to find out more about him in 1911
i can however tell you that there is a female named margaret living with him
and there is this marriage which could be them
name; william boughey
y.o.r. 1903
qtr; oct/nov/dec
dist; birkenhead.
vol; 8a
page; 936
on the same page; margaret coyle amongst others.
-
and there is a boughey child born in 1914 with mothers maiden name coyle
if you want the full entry for this child then i will send it by the personal message system
due to the fact it is possible this child is still alive.
-
:)
Yes, please Wozzle, any family details for ALL this family, will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
-
here is another boughey child with mothers maiden name coyle
this one i can post here
birth index;
name; philip.s.boughey
y.o.r. 1916
qtr; jul/aug/sept
dist; birkenhead
vol; 8a
page; 986
death index
name; philip.sidney.boughey
birth date 10th july 1916
death regd. oct 1985
age at death; 69
dist; birkenhead
vol; 37
page; 772.
-
:)
Hello Wozzle
Thank you very much for Philip Sidney Boughey's details.
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
-
:)
Hello Wozzle
We seem to be experiencing some internet connectivity problems. >:(
My email of yesterday to Frank Boughey's Greatgrandson in South Africa, asking him to validate the "Australian Connection", bounced back to me this morning, 'undelivered'.
My previous emails had reached him ok. I resent, twice to-day, but so far no reply, so am not sure yet whether they have been received ok, or not? ???
Will let you know as soon as I hear anything. ;)
In the meanwhile, thanks again, and Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
-
I am related to William Joseph Boughey and his wife Susannah Commbes (they lived approx 10 years in Australia). William's father was my Great, Great, Great Grandfather. William J Boughey's brother James Boughey was my Great, Great Grandfather. Happy to share information. :)
-
Wozzle and fisherrow
Sincere apologies owing to critical ill health of a very close relative, have been unable to return to Rootshat until now.
fisherrow of course would very much like to share information regarding the Boughey Family?
Wozzle, once again, my very deep appreciation for all that you have so kindly helped me with!
-
Can anyone please tell me when ANNA MARIA SMITH, nee Ingram, Widow of Henry Smith and
an ex-Schoolmistress, died, and where?
She was Christened 27 July 1828 (IGI) at St James, Trowbridge, Wiltshire.
However, she lived and taught most of her married life in Brigstock, Northants.
-
death index
name; anna maria smith
y.o.r. 1903
qtr; jan/feb/mar
dist; thrapston
vol; 3b
page; 120
age at death; 74
est birth date; about 1829
thrapston is the reg dist for brigstock
-
probate
anna maria smith of brigstock(widow died on the 18th feb 1903 administration granted at Peterborough on the 28th april 1903 to walter ingram smith (builder) in the amount of £189-8s-0d
-
here is the son walter ingram smiths death
name; walter I. smith
y.o.r. 1955
mnth; dec
age at death; 93
reg dist; samford
county; sussex
vol;4b
page; 872
probate; walter ingram smith of 31,cobbold rd,felixtowe died on the 5th dec 1955 probate was granted at Ipswich on the 3rd feb 1956 to frank ingram smith occ builder and norman ingram smith
occ warden in the amount of £1938-7s-2d
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Wozzle, once again, thank you very, very much.
Do you perhaps know what kind of a Warden Norman Ingram Smith, as mentioned in the Probate of
Walter Ingram Smith might have been?
This family sure did move around many different counties of England!
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Wozzle, once again, thank you very, very much.
Do you perhaps know what kind of a Warden Norman Ingram Smith, as mentioned in the Probate of
Walter Ingram Smith might have been?
This family sure did move around many different counties of England!
sorry no idea
mick
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going offline for a couple of hours now
if there is anything else you would like me to look up
I will do so later
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Hi Wozzle, yes please:
Frank James Boughey married Helen Walmsley, Birkenhead, 1905.
the 1911 Census details of their Household?
And for Frank's parents, William Joseph Boughey, married to Susannah Coombes,
their Household during the 1911 Census please? New Brighton, Liscard