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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: lesleystree on Saturday 22 August 09 22:31 BST (UK)
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I have some catholic ancestors who lived in Naylor Street in Liverpool in the 1840s/50s.
I was wondering where their children would go to school and what sort of education (if any) they would experience?
Would there be schools especially for Catholic children? Would they have any local schools nearby that they could attend?
NB When their father died, he was buried in St Anthonys which I believe is the Scotland Road area, however I don't know much about that area or whether it is close to Naylor Street.
I think I need to find a map (actually I do have an 1851 & indeed other maps but am struggling as the writing is so small and I have no idea where I'm looking)
Many thanks
Edit: Thank you - I now know where Naylor Street is & St Anthonys :)
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The four Roman Catholic chapels in Liverpool in the 1840s all had charity schools attached. St Anthony’s in Scotland Road was opened in 1841. Before that there were ones in Seel Street, Copperas Hill and South Chester Street (in Toxteth Park).
Mass education did not start until 1870 - http://www.know-britain.com/general/education_in_england_2.html - that’s why so many of our ancestors ‘made their mark’. A look at any BMD certificate they 'signed' will show how much education your forebears received.
Naylor Street still exists so you can find it on Google Maps. It is about half a mile south of St Anthonys.
Do you have an address in Naylor Street?
Ken
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TonyS's site has a good map showing Naylor Street off Bevington Bush Road, http://www.leverpoole.co.uk/1.001/m/liverpool-1850/20.shtm (1850-1860) and you can click the left arrow, then the arrow up to see a little further along and show St Anthony's RC Chapel off New Scotland Road.
Edited to show amended link to map. MA 21.10.09
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Thank you everyone.
Will try and look on google maps.
Thank you for the other map too :) Much easier. Thank you for the directions too :)
Yes Ken, they lived at Court 3, 32 Naylor Street. I shouldn't imagine the original housing would still exist but it will be interesting to have a look on google maps.
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If you pm me an email address I will send you a copy of the OS plan of 1864 that shows No 3 Court.
Ken
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Thank you. I have sent you a pm. ;D
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If you pm me an email address I will send you a copy of the OS plan of 1864 that shows No 3 Court.
Ken
I suggest that you read this thread (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,345662.0.html) before publishing any maps belonging to Alan Godfrey.
You could have sent a PM, but no, you want the world to know that you are doing a good deed for someone.
Tony
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Tony,
There's no need at all for the attitude, I for one, dont come here to listen to you ranting......i never, for one minute thought you would "talk" like that to a fellow poster. :o
Jacky
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I'm sorry I have to agree with Jacky, this has really upset me after a stressful day/weekend in fact its been a stressful few months. I've come on here to take my mind away from all of this.
You also are assuming I don't have copies of these maps myself. As per my original message, you can see I am struggling finding the street on the maps that I've got.
I've got Alan Godfrey maps, John Tallis maps and even some original Liverpool maps that I inherited from my grandparents.
Ken was just helping me find the relevant area on the map and interpreting it as I am having trouble finding it myself.
I should be more familiar with the area/maps but I have this stupid habit of not looking at the maps that I've got which is really basic genealogy. My bookcase looks nice though. :)
And if the world is looking in on my thread, this family came from Ireland...does anyone know which part?
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Hello Lesley,If your family came from Ireland. Would be better if you put it on the Ireland Board am sure someone would try to give you help.
if the births took place from 1864 and the family were R/C and the relevant area area known,it may be best in the first instance to try for baptism parish records. Lep :)
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Hello Lep, thanks for your help.
I already have posted on the Ireland board :) Probably one of my first posts on here a few years back. I've recently started knocking that particular brick wall down, I think I have the parents names now, just now need to resend for a marriage cert for his second marriage (which the GRO said wasn't them but I'm pretty certain it is now). Still no idea of where in Ireland though.
My ancestor was born in Ireland about 1808-11. He was in Scotland in 1841 and then in Liverpool in 1851.
Hence this Liverpool query about RC education in Liverpool :)
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Actually Lep I might post on the Ireland board again, you never know, maybe some of the parishes have been transcribed and now that I have an idea on who the parents may be, someone may be able to help. Well it's worth trying even though I have no idea where in Ireland.
Many thanks :)
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Good Irish luck to you Lesley ;)
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Thank you Lep :)
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If you pm me an email address I will send you a copy of the OS plan of 1864 that shows No 3 Court.
Ken
I suggest that you read this thread (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,345662.0.html) before publishing any maps belonging to Alan Godfrey.
You could have sent a PM, but no, you want the world to know that you are doing a good deed for someone.
Tony
Having worked for the Ordnance Survey I am well aware of the laws of copyright as regards their maps and plans. Are you? As for throwing mud, my posts are to assist people in their research while yours appear only to be for advertising your website.
I also suggest that you learn the difference between the words send and publish.
It is gratifying that my efforts will always have at least an audience of one, although the wording of your last paragraph suggests you are in need of a long lie down, as you are coming across as a bit of a ‘sad act’.
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my posts are to assist people in their research while yours appear only to be for advertising your website.
I take objection to that remark since it was MY post that gave the link to the map on Tony's site. This was done as I've been well aware, for a number of years, of the useful information that is posted on www.leverpoole.co.uk and have never seen the site "advertised" as you call it. So far as I'm aware it has only ever existed to provide researchers with a resource that has proved to be invaluable to a lot of family and local historians alike.
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I apologise to Lesley for hijacking this thread.
I stand by my original comments, but should have started a new thread before criticising Ken.
Ken is one of a number of people who object to me posting maps and photographs on genealogy and local history websites. My website is run as a hobby and costs several hundred pounds a year in fees.
I would like to think that people appreciate the maps, but if not, let me know and I will stop posting.
Ken, I am aware of the difference between send and publish. You are not.
What was your job at the Ordnance Survey ? It certainly wasn't in the Legal Department.
You do not have the right to copy maps belonging to Alan Godfrey, and send or publish them in any form. If you feel the need to continue sending maps, I suggest that you do it privately.
Regards,
Tony
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Hi Lesley
Thanks for your email. Here is a OS plan revised to 1891. Court No3 is actually marked on this plan.
(http://usera.ImageCave.com/km1971/Naylor_St_OS_1891_Plan.JPG)
It is at 1:500 scale. The L is a gas lamp attached to the wall of the house on Naylor Street. Nearby on the same wall is a small blob showing the water tap (WT). This would have been shared by the six houses in Court 3, and maybe the two houses on Naylor Street. It also shows the 2 or 3 shared facilities at the top of the court. The houses on Naylor Street were 'cellar kitchen' houses. As well as the 2/3 steps going up to the ground floor you can clearly see at this scale the steps going down to the cellar.
Opposite Court No3 the Caledonian Spirit vaults has ceased trading.
Ken
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Thank you Ken :)
It's really hard to believe how people lived. We take such things like individual water taps for granted. Thank you for the info about the steps and cellars too.
This really helps.
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That's why the first public washhouses and baths had such an impact on public health. Can you imagine what you had to do to have a bath, or wash your hands after using the 'facilities'. So most people didn't bother.
Ken
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I forgot to mention. If you discover the house number in Court 3, we should be able to tell you which one it is.
Just noticed...there might be a seventh house in the top corner.
Ken
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Thanks again, you've given me lots to think about. I'm wondering whether David may have been infected with cholera in that very court.
It's also strange as well to think of ancestors relying on the gas lamp in the court to get about in the evening. It makes it seem so much more real.
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I don't know if they would have had gas lamps in the 1840s/50s.
Ken
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I was wondering that myself lol
Found an interesting snippet about Liverpool gas lights in 1819 on the following site:
http://www.old-liverpool.co.uk/snipsAug1819.html
NB I particularly enjoyed the article underneath
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The 1864 plan shows lamps posts (LP) out in the street, but not the wall mounted lamps in the courts.
Ken
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Thanks Ken, well spotted. :)
I just cannot believe that I now know this much about the court/street where they lived. Thank you.
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St Anthony's in Scotland Road, has a very active Family History Group.
Why not write to the Group at the Church and see what they can do for you.
The Old Courts were still around in the 1950's as were the wash-houses. a good book to read about those times is "The Life and Times of Kitty Wilkinson.
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St Anthony's in Scotland Road, has a very active Family History Group.
Why not write to the Group at the Church and see what they can do for you.
The Old Courts were still around in the 1950's as were the wash-houses. a good book to read about those times is "The Life and Times of Kitty Wilkinson.
ooh thank you for that Dancing Master :) I will do as you say.
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I have some catholic ancestors who lived in Naylor Street in Liverpool in the 1840s/50s.
I was wondering where their children would go to school and what sort of education (if any) they would experience?
Would there be schools especially for Catholic children? Would they have any local schools nearby that they could attend?
NB When their father died, he was buried in St Anthonys which I believe is the Scotland Road area, however I don't know much about that area or whether it is close to Naylor Street.
I think I need to find a map (actually I do have an 1851 & indeed other maps but am struggling as the writing is so small and I have no idea where I'm looking)
Many thanks
Edit: Thank you - I now know where Naylor Street is & St Anthonys :)
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Hello Viv : :)
I noticed you quoted my post, did you mean to write something along side it? :)
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Hi Lesley,
I've just been reading all the messages posted and I'm fascinated. My gg grandparents lived in Naylor St as well. On some documents it says they lived in 3 Court and later on at 46 Naylor St. Gg grandmother died of cholera age 40 and gg grandfather died soon afterwards. I have been looking at the maps on the leverpoole site - absolutely briliant. I'm hoping to go to Liverpool in the next month or two to see if I can find any school records etc. to try and tie up a few loose ends (of which I have many!!!!!!!!!!).
Thank you for your message - 'Im just trying to work out how the RootsChat works.
Regards Viv
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Which reminds me I haven't posted this better photograph of Court No 3.
(http://usera.ImageCave.com/km1971/Low Res - Court 3 Naylor Street.jpg)
Lesley/Viv...if you want a high res photograph (6.5 mb) send me a PM with an email address.
Lesley..the property top right is in the commercial yard next door. But there are two sets of steps going to what should be House 5.
btw..I found a note in the 1881 census in another area of Liverpool saying that the names of the courts had been taken down, leaving only the numbers.
Ken