RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Somerset => Topic started by: astley7 on Saturday 22 August 09 14:57 BST (UK)
-
Hi looking for other people who have the surname linkage my Great Granfather or further information on George Carter who moved to Wales Deri , Bargoed I believe he was born in 1831 in Paulton .
Thank you Lisa
-
I have sent you a pm but for anyone researching Paulton
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chewton/
They have the Paulton registers transcribed
Trees
-
1871 census RG10 5389 fo 15 p26 gives George born 1826
So was he
850 25 Dec 1827 George s of Jacob Sarah CARTER Paulton Collier Holy Trinity Paulton
or
856 30 Dec 1827 George son of Jacob Martha CARTER Paulton Collier
Your George had a David not too common a name and Jacob and Martha also had a David is that a clue? Has your George got a Sarah or a Martha? Is there any family knowledge of George's parents?
Trees
-
I am worried about the parents of George I am tending towards Jacob and Martha rather than Jacob and Sarah
You have used the George and Ruth as twins and George and Mary Ann having twins as your reasoning but the Paulton baptisms don't confirm that George and Ruth were twins there is no bap for Ruth and George was bapt
850 25 Dec 1827 George M Jacob Sarah CARTER Paulton Collier
although the 1881 census has George born 1831 the 1871 census RG10/5389 fo 15 p26 has George born1826
I think this is more likely to be correct
George died Mar qtr 1883 Merthyr Tydfil 11a 311 age 55
this gives a birth year 1828
Both are shown as 10 in 1841 but in 1851 George was shown as 23
HO107 / 1939 p 48 fo 166 sch 191
CARTER Jacob HD 50
Sarah WI 47 P
George SO 23 Coal Miner.
Mary DA 14 Scholar
Martha DA 10 Scholar
Ann DA 6 Scholar
Ruth was 20 a maid at the York House hotel
So were George and Ruth twins I wish we could find her baptism
her age is consistant on later censuses
Ruth married Thomas Hew in 1860 in Paulton her death (free BMD)
Sep qtr 1884 HEW Ruth 54 Clutton 5c 361
Your George had a David as did Jacob and Martha
I really think you have to keep an open mind here
What do other chatters think please.
-
Jacob and Sarah's George is still unmarried and living with parents in 1861
RG9 / 1679 fo 171 p21 sch 112
Jacob CARTER HD M 60 Coal miner SOM Paulton
Sarah CARTER WI M 57 SOM Paulton
George CARTER SO U 32 Coal miner SOM Paulton
Martha CARTER DA U 20 SOM Paulton
Now a George CARTER m a Mary Ann BADGER in BRIDGEND district Dec 1861 why Bridgend I have no idea she was in Merthyr in 1861 with her son James see below
John Carter was born Clutton
John Henry CARTER mother Badger was born Clutton in 1861 there are two in the same year so either Clutton 695 or 629
James John Badger was born in in Mar qtr Merthyr Tydfil 11a 315or 318
James is with Mary Ann Badger in 1861 RG9 4052 fo66 p13 Merthyr Tydfil
So you now have your Gt Grandmothers name But this still doesn't solve which Jacob was George's father
Trees
-
Martha's Jacob is nagging at me
In 1851 HO107/1939 fo150 p18 he is widr with his children
Daur kezia PARFITT a widow
sons George 22, Henry 9
daurs Martha 14, Emma 11
In 1861 he is with Kesia now married to Mark HALL their three children and son Henry
So his George is not with father Jacob was he in Wales courting Mary Ann?
Trees ???
-
Great gran
Mary Ann BADGER Mar qtr 1840 Merthyr Tydfil 26 378
She is on 1841 HO107/1415/9 fo 59 p 28
with parents James and Rebecca and sister Maria James was a nailor
-
I wonder if this is the missing George
RG10/2470 fo 36 p8 1871 for Paulton
George 42 a collier of Paulton
Mary of Camerton
Joseph 8 Paulton
Martha 5 Paulton
Eliza 3 Paulton
CARTER George /SNOOK Mary Camerton, St Peter marriage 1862
With a Martha so near the top of the children this could be Jacob and Martha's George
What do others think?
-
By the way this site http://www.bathbmd.org.uk/ givesthe BMD's for the Somerset districts and gives the mother's maiden name for the birth entries but not the quarter only the year so if you use it alongside of Free BMDs you should get a good idea of when a child was born and the mother's maiden name its a good one to bookmark for any Somerset research
Trees
-
Lets see where we have got to
Two George Carter father Jacob born Paulton abt 1827
850 25 Dec 1827 George s of Jacob Sarah CARTER Paulton Collier Holy Trinity Paulton
856 30 Dec 1827 George son of Jacob Martha CARTER Paulton Collier
Both are with their parents in 1851 (well one is with his widowed father and widowed sister
In 1861 we have
RG9 / 1679 fo 171 p21 sch 112
Jacob CARTER HD M 60 Coal mine SOM Paulton
Sarah CARTER WI M 57SOM Paulton
George CARTER SO U 32 Coal miner SOM Paulton
Martha CARTER DA U 20 SOM Paulton
The other one is a lodger in Paulton His father Jacob was with his sister who had now remarried
One married Mary Ann BADGER in Bridgend in Dec 1861 the othe m Mary SNOOK from Camertonin 1862 they stayed in Somerset
RG10/2470 fo 36 p8 1871 for Paulton
George 42 a collier of Paulton
Mary of Camerton
Joseph 8 Paulton
Martha 5 Paulton
Eliza 3 Paulton
At first glance the daughter Martha makes us look towards Jacob/Martha BUT Jacob and /Sarah had a daughter Martha so little Martha named for gran or Aunt inconclusive
1871
RG10/5389 fo 15 p26
George CARTER Head Mar 45 Labourer at Coal Works Somerset Palton
Mary CARTER Wife Mar 30
James CARTER Son 13 Collier
John CARTER Son 10 Scholar
Thomas CARTER Son 7
George CARTER Son 5
Edward CARTER Son 4 Mo
Now Why did Mary Ann BADGER marry in Bridgend she was from Merthyr parents James and Rebbeca nee FRANCIS who married MT26 644 June 1838 and her son James John was born 1858 in MT was George lodging with her and curtains were twitching so they went quietly to Bridgend to tie the knot I don't think they were living as man and wife as she is on the 1861 census as BAGER and unmarried and with her son James BADGER
Either George had to leave Paulton after the 1861 census so it was a very quick marriage had either of them been to Wales to look for work earlier abt 1857?
Get James John Badgers birth certificate to see if the father 's name was given
Get Mary Ann Badger's mariage certificate to confirm father was Jacob and to see if there were other Carter witnesses that we can link to his family
Trees
-
James John (Badger) CARTER married Julia CARTER Sep qtr 1883 MT district
Julia died Mar qtr 1890 age 30 MT district 11 a 393
Who was Julia CARTER b abt 1860 annoyingly we can't got her on a census with James
Trees
-
I havent read this all thoroughly yet, but think you are looking for a baptism of Ruth CARTER abt 1830?
Ruth CARTER
26 December 1830, Holy Trinity, Paulton, Somerset
Parents JACOB and SARAH, Father Collier
Lots of Carter christenings on Freereg in Paulton
Trish :)
-
Trees :)
Maybe this is Julia ???
Julia CARTER
12 December 1858, Holy Trinity, Paulton,Somerset
Father GEORGE occp collier, Mother ELIZABETH
-
Marriage;
22 May 1860, Holy Trinity, Paulton, Somerset
Ruth CARTER, spinster, abode Paulton, Father JACOB Carter, collier
Thomas HEW, batchelor,occp mason, abode Paulton, Father Thomas Hew, occp Pensioner
Witnesses, Mary Carter, William Ings, by Banns
-
Thanks Trish I am struggling with this one
There is a Julia in the Bath BDM mother Susanna a single lady now Susannah just to confuse matters was a daughter of Jacob and Martha and this little Julia is with Maria SPERRIN another of Jacob and Martha's daughters in 1861 age 2 also with Maria was Matilda age 10 a visitor now she had been a visitor less than a month old with Jacob in 1851( Martha had died) No obvious mother was with her but there was a Matilda in the Bath BDMs mother's maiden name HULBECk
I cant find a marriage for Carter Hulbeck suitable
So which Julia did James marry if its this one she was his father or step father's niece
Oh help is nothing straight forward with these carters
I cant find a suitable John 1852 in the Bath BDM's either et he is down in two censuses with George and Mary Ann as born Somerset
Trees
-
Right following Trish's Julia she was the daughter of George Carter b 1817 son of Joseph and Mary?
This George was married to Elizabeth CHAPMAN they had 2 Julia's
Julia bap 4 May 1857 buried 6 Nov 1857 and Julia bap 12 DEC 1858
Strangely there is only one Julia for mother Chapman in Bath BDM's then Julia 1859 single mum who from the Yahoo transcripts was Susanna Carter this one isn't in free reg all very odd Now James's Julia was born 1860 from her death so I favour Susanna's Julia
anyhow it leaves us with a dilemma as to which one James married and does it help with sorting out which George Jacob and Martha's or Jacob and Sarah's
Trees
-
oo look Mary Ann Nee Badger married again in the Se[tember quarter of 1899
Carter Mary Ann Merthyr T. 11a 1054
Jenkins John Merthyr T. 11a 1054
In 1901 she and John have her grand children Thomas J Carter 13 and Julia Carter 22 with them. She was 20 years older than ohn Jenkins
Now who were Thomas J's parents? As he is always with julia (with Grandmother in 1891 & 1901) I think they were James and Julia's children
Trees
-
astley7 please tell us which of George and Mary's children is your grand parent
and why you think George was the son of Jacob and Sarah this information may help us sort out where to find the next generation back for you. I must confess that finding more uses of the names Matilda in the family makes me favour Jacob and Martha more
Trees
-
I have the children of George and Mary Ann
John Henry 1861
Thomas Francis 1864
George 1866
Edward 1870
David Joseph 1872
Rebecca Ann 1874
Mary Martha 1874
Matilda 1876
Edith 1879
and James Carter 1858 registered BADGER was he George's son doubtful but not impossible
Notice the twin Mary who appears on the censuses as Mary A was registered as Mary Martha
So George has a David, Ann, John, Henry,Matilda and a Martha names in Jacob and Martha's family
Martha and Ann are the only 2 in common with Jacob and Sarah's family
So I think this is a strong case for Jacob and Martha HOOK
What do you think?
Trees
-
Hi thanks for all your help on this! My grandfather was David Joseph Carter he married Maragret Ann Greenland of Deri. They had Seven Children, Enid, Pearl, Dulcie, Agnus, Cysel, edna and one other.
So I dont think that is much of help sorry.
-
Hi
George Carter and Mary Ann Badger were my great grandparents. Just this week collected their marriage certificate - not much help.
I believe, through elimination and discussion with other Carter researchers on the Yahoo/Somerset sites that Georges parents were Jacob Carter (1800ish) and Sarah Gulliford (1803). I have up to present been unable to find Jacobs parents (but have some views on who they might be - no baptism for Jacob 1790 to 1809 - but one in 1809) but have traced Sarah back 2 generations so far.
Am about to send for the birth certficates for Mary Ann's son Jame John (to see if father named - hope its George) and for George and Mary Ann's first legitimate son John Henry, who was born in Paulston to see if it gives an accomodation address - hope its with grandparents.
My scenario for Georg and Mary Ann is:
1. Mary Ann in service in Somerset, gets pregany (hopefully by George) and is forced to return to Merthyr.
2. George follows her (eventually) and they marry. Why Bridgend? twitching curtains or a vicar who is willing to marry them?
3. They return to Paulton because of Georges work
4. They return to Bargoed/Deri when the work dries up.
Astley7 I have sent a pm
Tree's it looks like you have done a lot of great work. I have only been following this particular line for a week or two, but I will put down my thoughts about who I believe Jacobs parents to be and hopefully you will be able to giveme your views.
Regards
Ray
-
Great to have your input Ray why do you think its James and Sarah I have convinced myself its James and Martha with so many names that match with George's children I think James and Sarah's George is the one who married Mary SNOOK I would love to hear your reasoning :)
Which Julia do you think married James was it Susannah's I think I found a death for Susannah in MT
Have you worked out who were Matilda's parents? The only birth I can see at a reasonable date has mother Holbrook but I cant see a Carter Holbeck marriage.
Gosh you are more than welcome the Carters are a nightmare to sort between the Biblical and Royal names repeating over and over
Trees
-
Trees
On the 1911 census Mary Ann states that she had 14 children, with 9 surviving at that time. In addition to the ones you have already mentioned I also have:
(another) David 1872
Gertrude 1879
Annie 1883
This leaves one missing (I am also not absolutely sure about David - this came from another researcher).
Rebecca was my great grandmother and I have her twin as Mary. I think the confusion on the second name was because Rebecca was Rebecca Ann, and with all the kids the enumerator got confused!!
Ray
-
Trees
Crossed each other on the last posts. The reason I have not taken the Jacob/Martha line is that I have a Gedcom file from a recent contact from the Yahoo/Somerset site that has line coming from George Carter (1829) the son of Jacob(1789)/Martha.
He has George marrying a Mary Gulliford (god all these similar names!) in 1857 and having 6 children.
However I am still hoping that the birth certificate of John Henry will have him at his grandparents house to confirm - do you think I am optimistic?
Have not looked at your other questions as yet.
I can post you the Gedcom if you require it.
Regards
Ray
-
I dont know about the other children but know she had grand children living with her. I would have thought any deaths within the family would have been burried in St Andrews, Pentwyn, Fochriw opp White Horse i Know there is a Ronald Carter burried there near the gate but I have not linked him into anything yet i have just collected information.
I will have a look into this.
Best wishes
Lisa
-
Lisa
Don't know if you are aware that for some time Mary Ann lived with her second husband, John Jenkins (20 years younger than her), next to her daughter Rebecca in Factory Road, Bargoed. The house is still in the family, my cousin lives there.
Another cousin of mine remembers one of the grandchildren, Julia.
I don't know who the grandchildren came from because I have not traced that line as yet, but it should be fairly easy to do, with some certificates that is.
Ray
-
The grandchildren were Thomas J carter and Julia Carter I believe them to be James badger carter children James married Julia b 1860 but she died aged 30 in 1890.
Best Wishes
-
Trees
Just a little more confusion. The Mary Gulliford that George Carter married was also from Camerton, the marriage took place in 1857.
However the BathBMD (with mothers name supplied) supports the George/Mary family in Paulton in 1871 being Mary Snook from Camerton , i.e. Joseph 1863, Martha 1864 and Eliza 1868 (all with a mother Snook).
So this is a different George and Mary to:
* George and Mary Gulliford and
* George/Mary Ann Badger.
Regards
Ray
-
Ray I have David Joseph b Dec 1872 MT 11a 367 I had not found an earlier David was he David Joseph b Dec 1868 MT 11a 337died mar qt 1871 age 2 Merthyr t 11a 251
So another pair of twins
CARTER Edith Mar 1879 MT11a 413
Carter Gertrude Merthyr T. 11a 412
Death Mar 1879CARTER Gertrude 0 Merthyr T. 11a 289
I can't see an Annie in 1883 where was she born?
George who married Mary Gulliford in 1857 was born 1819 on the 1861 census and b 1820 on the 1871 census so I have him as the son of George and Elizabeth ANSTEE and too old for either of the Jacob Georges
I have George son of Jacob and Sarah m the SNOOKS girl and have
Joseph, Martha and Eliza for them this George died between 1871 and 1881 his DoB was 1829 I am still in favour of Jacob and Martha I take it the father's name on the marriage certificate was indeed Jacob? Were there any family witnesses?
Bed time will add in the morning
Trees
-
Hi Tree's
I think there were two David Josephs (is that right Lisa?) with one born 1869 which I have and dying in 1871. I presume that David Joseph No2 is Lisa's grandfather.
Nope I can't see an Annie either, and she isn't on the 1891 census, there were 8 children with Mary Ann at that time:
Edward (20) James (31)
Thomas F (26) David J (18)
Edith (12) Mary A (16)
Matilda (15) Rebecca (16)
Gertrude died in childbirth, John Henry (29) and George (25) are not at home.
Taking account of David Joseph that accounts for 12 children so I am missing two.
I took the names from the family tree that was given me and had not checked all the names myself. Slapped wrist I think.
I am now very confused with the Georges (did you know there are 4 George/Mary Carter pairings in Paulton on the 1871 census -thankfully different ages).
On the marriage certificate it has father Jacob, Georges age is given as full and there are no family witnesses - not a lot of help.
I think your research is also leaning me towards Jacob/Martha line, but my head is beginning to ache. As you say its bedtime. Give it another go tomorrow (or the next day!)
Regards
Ray
-
Oooh there are a Cart load of Carters Ray I have no less than 77 Georges all from the Paulton area(55 frm Paulton)they are a nightmare to sort as you are finding ;D 3 in 1817 3 in 1819 3 in 1827 besides the ones in 1816 1818 1820 etc we have to keep a very open mind on who is/was who and with out definite proof must take great care so we need some one to look at the entries for the marriages to see who the father was in each case such as the Gulliford one until I know for definite that George's father was Jacob i am going on his age on the censuses and rule him out of the "Jacob" Georges.
I look at the ages given on censuses these often vary from census to census with individuals but you can usually follow a family through with names and dates of children I usually thing the age on the earliest census found is most likely to be the nearest but it depends on who filled in the census They didn't celebrate each passing year as we do now and the memory often played tricks ;D
After that I look at the names some strictly follow family traditions thats why I have put your George with Jacob and Martha. But its all "educated" guess work really until we can find something concrete I doubt that there would have been a bastardy order in 1858 so unless the father is named which is again hit and miss for children born out of wedlock the only other way we can link James John Badger to George though today the DNA people would say all you need is a known male decendant of George and a known male descendant of James and it would be clear.Ah but in1911 she says she had 9 out of 14 children of this marriage living so James must be George's child
so my list is now
James 1858
John Henry 1861
Thomas Francis 1864
George 1866
David Joseph 1868-1871
Edward 1870
David Joseph 1872
Rebecca Ann 1874
Mary Martha 1874
Matilda 1876
Edith 1879
Gertrude 1879 -1879
and I am missing 2 there are many more MT Carters listed
but no obvious gaps and where did Annie feature? was Annie a pet nameor an unregistered second name they have used different names along the way such as the Mary A on two censuses but registered Mary Martha
-
There is a possible William Henry born Mar qtr 1877 died June qtr 1877 that could fit in between Matilda and Edith & Gertrude and a possible but tight Reuben Sep 1869-Sep 1870 between David Joseph(1) and Edward but that is tight DJ would have to be born October and or Reuben premature
If these are right it adds more credence to the Jacob/Martha theory with Reuben and Henry featuring among the children.
I wonder if there are baptisms for these children in Cardiff RO that would make an easy visit for one of us and sort the lot out in on session does anyone in the family know if they were Church or chapel or nothing?
I found an interesting bit by G..gling Jacob Carter Paulton a Jacob a miner from Paulton had a lease on mining land in High Littleton and there were Carters in HL so is that where the two Jacobs are from I think they could well be cousins and its strange neither has a bap in Paulton
The Matilda with Jacob in 51 is listed directly under George I am wondering if he was the father although he is listed as single strangely Bath BMDs has Matilda Carter mothe Holbrook but Free BMD has her as Matilda HOLBROOK
so was she born out of wedlock to a miss holbrook who had named George as the father? We need someone to check that one for us there is no obvious female Holbrook death corresponding with the birth there is a martha dying but she was over 50 It is strange for a baby under a month to be visiting with out a mother and she is listed befor the otherchildren of Jacob HO107/1939 fo150 p18 she cant be Kezia's as she was married before the birth so her child would have been a Parfitt any thoughts? george went on to have a Matilda with mary Ann didn't he We have this Matilda on the 1851 and 1861 censuses i need to follow her up surely george wouldn't call a second daughter Matilda if the first was still around,
Now I must go and do some work back later
Trees
-
Right a Matilda married Alfred BURGE in 1870 father James CARTER
This was james Carter (born High Littleton)and Arabella HARRIS so not ours ??? ???
Now I MUST go and work
Trees
-
Sorry i dont know if there was another David Joseph, not a lot was said about this family and its history, by my gran. And there is no evidence of this in the family Bible.
best wishes
-
Trees
Am today sending for John Henry birth certificate hoping it will give an address that will be useful. Will also send for James John birth certificate but just showing a father named George Carter is not going to help identify the correct Jacob.
If I set my thinking out, there were 5 Geroge Carters born in the period 1821 to 1831
1. Stephen/Elizabeth 18 Nov 1827 (died April 1828 age 7 months)
2. Jacob/Sarah 25 Dec 1827
3. Jacob/Martha 30 Dec 1827
4. Stephen/Elizabeth 19 April 1829
5. John/Amy 25 Dec 1831 (died Feb 1832 age 1 year)
I have been unable to locate any likely George Carter (born Paulton) in Wales on the 1861 census. There are however two likely Georges on the Paulton 1861 census:
a. George (age 32) with Jacob & Sarah, and
b. George (age 36) lodging with Alfred Whatley
However is this George (b) Jacob/Martha's or Stephen/Elizabeth's . He was lodging so his age might have been given by his landlord and wrong.
I have the following comparison for the two Jacob Georges:
Jacob/ Sarah Jacob/Martha
George George
Baptised 25 Dec 1827 30 Dec 1827
1841 Census age 10 (1831) age 12 (1829)
1851 Census age 23 (1828) age 22 (1829)
1861 Census age 32 (1829) age 36 (1825)???
assuming our George is Jacob/Sarahs
1871 Census age 45 (1826) ????
1881 Census age 50 (1831) ????
1883 died age 55 (1828) ???
have not yet obtained death certificate to confirm but only on George Carter to have died in Merthyr over 10 year period 1881 to 1891. With ages all over the place its a nightmare.
With regard to your point about Mary Ann saying 14 children of this marriage, she was married to John Jenkins at that time, but I like you assume that George was the father of James John.
Need to do some more checking on the missing children i.e. Annie
I do believe the family were chapel when in Wales. Only recently a cousin of mine pointed out a chapel on Aberbargoed hill that he says was the family chapel. I shall have to visit to see if they hold any registers.
Regards
Ray
-
Tea break so i've been looking at julia Carter who married James
Susanna Carter single dau of jacob and martha
Julia bap 5 Aug 1859 paulton
1861 with Jacob wid Kezia Wid and other ch of jacob
1871 Neice of Marias SPERRING in Camerton Maria Susanna's sister
George /Elizabeth CHAPMAN
They had 2 Julias the second being
Julia bap 12 Dec 1858
1861 with parents in Paulton
1871 with widowed mother transcribed on An..ry as Lulia! in Paulton
1881 i can only find 1 no deaths or marriages before
Servant in Bath
Marriage to
ALMOND George Bath 5c 975 Jun qtr 1882
CARTER James Bridgend Sep qtr 1883
1891 in Camerton RG12/1927 fo 104 p23
George Almond,Julia, Edward, Elizabeth and Beatrice
We need to find the other julia in 1881 but I think Mrs Almond was the Servant fram Bath and as she is living in Camerton I think I favour her being Susanna's Julia once again we need the marriage certificate or a look at the register for James and Julia's marriage to see if her dad was George It would also be interesting to see who Mrs Almond's father was on her marriage entry
back to work ironing I hate it would rather be doing FH ;D
Trees
-
Hi all interested,
Please see
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,403184.0.html
Cheers Kris :)
-
thank you both for the details on the Marriage certificate. Llangynwyd parish Church is a lovely little one with many stories
It is the reason why Maesteg Rugby team was known as the four sevens
A mason had to carve 28 on a head stone but was not happy carving curves so put 7777 or 4 sevens
Do you know the lovely folk song Bugeilor Gwyneth Gwyn?(watching the wheat)
It was supposedly written by Will hopkin the local thatcher about his love for Ann Thomas who was forced to marry a higher ranking chap both died young (of broken hearts) she is buried in side the church and he as near to her grave on the outside
A foolish luckless youth am I
loves own commandments keeping
Tis I who watch the golden wheat
another does the reaping
Come o come when true love calls
than all he flowers thou art fairer
And my love grows as thy dear charms
grow fairer yet and fairer
I'll try to get a photo of the church for you if ever it stops raining
Trees
-
It looks like George was working in St John's Colliery as he was living in the Cwmdu area St Johns was sunk in 1850 on the site of the older shallow pit Cwmdu (black pit) so it was fairly new at the time of the birth of James I wonder if George answered a call for men. The mines had agents that travelled the country recruiting labour apparently there is a typical poster in the museum in Midsomer Norton which is near Paulton. It would answer a few mysteries wouldn't it I wonder what Mary Ann was doing there though so how did they meet did George go to check employment in the Merthyr area and meet her? i doubt we will ever know but it looks like her parents refused permission for an early marriage until the second child was on the way Did he take her to his parents to give birth because her mum was not prepared to look after her they already had one little one so she would have needed help may be she had had problems with the first birth who knows. Any how it looks like he was working n St John's
I am wondering if he was on nights and got left off the census and the lodger in Paulton was yet another of the many Georges there. It would be strange for him to be a lodger and not living at home wouldn't it. Don't forget the census was of people who slept in the house on the night of the census.
(By the way St John's was the colliery I went down when I worked for the Scientific Dept of the NCB small world isn't it)
-
just reading through to see if i can help :-\
-
Bless toni your a ***
-
Great work Trees. Just a few points. I have Mary Ann living on her own with son James (Badger at this point) on the 1861 census. I am checking a few things out with astley7 but Mary Ann's mother and father may have died by this time. I still like my scenario of Mary Ann in service in Somerset before being disgraced and sent back to Wales.
The ommision option on the census is good and so is the likely return to Somerset for support for the children (if Mary Ann's mother died). Hopefully this is what happened because John Henry will be shown at his grandparents house. Should have the certificate by the weekend.
-
i'm finding it a bit difficult because of the repeatation (is that a word) of names - no repitition thats what i was looking for,
can someone sum up where we are at please
-
hang on a min toni and I'll make a summary
Meanwhile
James badger died Set 1846
Liza has her as a widow in 1851 Rebecca Badger was a widow H0107/2458 folio 428 page 45 1851.
and there is a marriage for Rebecca badger in Dec 1851 MT 26 661 one of the chaps listed was an Evan DAVIES now an Evan Davies wife Rebecca is on the 1861 census she born 1817 in Enginetown ???Glamorgan anyone any idea where that was? and in 1871 (this will make toni laught) they are keeping thre LOCAMOTIVE Inn in Llantwit Fadre
this needs checking
-
Forget what I said about the Evan Davies rebecca The other candidate on the marriage was john Prior and look he is with her in 1851! phew thank goodness not another publican then ;D ( for those new friends I ave about 50 publicans on my tree and we are a TT family ;D
-
Oh dear Death of Rebecca Prior June 1855 MT 11a 184
how sad so that all changes the story Both Mary Ann's parents were dead before she met George now where was she in 1851
Toni can you look for a Mary Ann Badger in 1851 born 1840 Merthyr Tydfil she may be in Somerset or Wales I'll get on with a summary
-
Lets see where we have got to
I have a connection with the Paulton Carters and have been collecting data on the various Paulton Carters for years
Lisa and Ray both descend from George CARTER born about 1827 Paulton . George and wife Mary Ann lived in the Merthyr area
From censuses BMD's etc we have children for the couple
James 1858
John Henry 1861
Thomas Francis 1864
George 1866
David Joseph 1868-1871
Edward 1870
David Joseph 1872
Rebecca Ann 1874
Mary Martha 1874
Matilda 1876 Mar
Edith 1879
Gertrude 1879 -1879
The marriage of George Carter and Mary Ann BADGER was 7 Oct 1861 at Llangynwyd by banns their address was Garnlwyd Cottages Measteg this is in Cwmdu near St John's Colliery her father was James Badger a Nailor and his Jacob CARTER a collier
They had their first child James John in 1858 in Merthyr and she is on the 1861 census as unmarried with her son James Badger
There is a George lodging in Paulton in 1861 not with his parents
Two George Carter father Jacob born Paulton abt 1827
850 25 Dec 1827 George s of Jacob Sarah CARTER Paulton Collier Holy Trinity Paulton
856 30 Dec 1827 George son of Jacob Martha CARTER Paulton Collier
Both are with their parents in 1851 (well one is with his widowed father and widowed sister
In 1861 we have
RG9 / 1679 fo 171 p21 sch 112
Jacob CARTER HD M 60 Coal mine SOM Paulton
Sarah CARTER WI M 57SOM Paulton
George CARTER SO U 32 Coal miner SOM Paulton
Martha CARTER DA U 20 SOM Paulton
The other one is a lodger in Paulton His father Jacob was with his sister who had now remarried
One married Mary Ann BADGER in Bridgend in Dec 1861 the other m Mary SNOOK from Camerton in 1862 they stayed in Somerset
RG10/2470 fo 36 p8 1871 for Paulton
George 42 a collier of Paulton
Mary of Camerton
Joseph 8 Paulton
Martha 5 Paulton
Eliza 3 Paulton
At first glance the daughter Martha makes us look towards Jacob/Martha BUT Jacob and /Sarah had a daughter Martha so little Martha named for gran or Aunt inconclusive
Our family George /Mary Badger
1871
RG10/5389 fo 15 p26
James BADGER and Rebbeca nee FRANCIS who married MT26 644 June 1838
James Badger died Sept qtr 1846 MT
Rebecca was a widow in 1851 H0107/2458 folio 428 page 45 with her was John Prior
there is a marriage Rebecca Badger in Dec 1851 MT 26 661 and John Prior
and sadly a death Rebecca Prior June 1855 MT 11a 184
So Mary Ann had no parents from 1855
she may have gone into service in Somerset and met george or he came to Wales looking for work
The pit near their address when they marry was opened in 1850 on the site of an older mine
-
Back to George
Two George Carter father Jacob born Paulton abt 1827
850 25 Dec 1827 George s of Jacob Sarah CARTER Paulton Collier Holy Trinity Paulton
856 30 Dec 1827 George son of Jacob Martha CARTER Paulton Collier
Both are with their parents in 1851 in 1861 one is still with parents(well one is with his widowed father and widowed sister
RG9 / 1679 fo 171 p21 sch 112
Jacob CARTER HD M 60 Coal mine SOM Paulton
Sarah CARTER WI M 57SOM Paulton
George CARTER SO U 32 Coal miner SOM Paulton
Martha CARTER DA U 20 SOM Paulton
The other one is a lodger in Paulton His father Jacob was with his sister who had now remarried
One married Mary Ann BADGER in Bridgend in Dec 1861 the othe m Mary SNOOK from Camerton in 1862 they stayed in Somerset
The questions to ask are Which George married Mary Ann BADGER
Mary SNOOK and George
RG10/2470 fo 36 p8 1871 for Paulton
George 42 a collier of Paulton
Mary of Camerton
Joseph 8 Paulton
Martha 5 Paulton
Eliza 3 Paulton
At first glance the daughter Martha makes us look towards Jacob/Martha BUT Jacob and /Sarah had a daughter Martha so little Martha cold be named named for Gran or Aunt inconclusive
RG10/5389 fo 15 p26 ed: Merthyr Tydfil, Gelligaer 8 1871 Mary BADGER and George
A fellow researcher on a different forum thought that George from Jacob and Martha married Mary Guilliford m in 1857 but censuses for that couple show her George was too old for one of the Jacob boys I think he was the son of George and Elizabeth ANSTEE
Looking at the children's names and comparing them with Jacob and Martha's we find
David, Ann, John, Henry,Matilda and a Martha names in Jacob and Martha's family (6 names)
but only 2 match with Jacob and Sarah's family
George died
George 55 Mar 1883MT 11a 311
and Mary Ann remarried Sep quarter of 1899 MT 11a 1054 to John Jenkin who was 20 years younger than her in 1911 she said she had 14 children 9 still living but we have only identified 12 Ray thinks there was also an Annie later than Edith and Gertrude but we can't see a birth record for an Annie
James (Badger)CARTER married a Julia Carter she died
Julia Mar 1890 30 MT11a393
There were 2 Julias born in Paulton the same year one to Susannah one of Jacob and Martha's daughters we have followed her through the censuses and I am pretty sure she married George ALMOND in June qtr 1882 in Bath where she was a serv in 1881 they then lived in Camerton
So It looks like Julia dau of George and Elizabeth nee CHAPMAN married James(Badger) Carter
Julia died mar 1890 30 MT11a393
Hope that helps Toni
-
Hi Trees
I had the Badger/Prior link already in my system but I did,nt mention it because things seemed to be difficult enough already, and I did,nt think it added to the particular problem in hand.
Have just been down to the library to get on Ancestory and following a conversation with Astley7 I had a look at the name George Carter and found that there was a George Carter born around 1828 in Somerset who had a number of convictions for larceny in the 1840/50's (left the details in the library!!). There was also a Jacob Carter convicted for larceny in 1816 in Somerset and served 18 months imprisonment. What if our George had been a bad boy around 1860 and could'nt go with Mary Ann because he was otherwise engaged?
Ray
-
Mary Ann - did she have any siblings other than what seems to be Maria?
-
Hi did you find more larcery on George and Jacob if its the correct George and Jacob? than the one i found in 1801 for Jacob?.
Lisa
-
Hi toni
Still exploring that avenue.
There is a Ann aged 15 who can be found living with the family in caedrew MT in the 1841 census also edward is found living there too.
Other possible sibling for James is John b 1817 born in merthyr too. Not many badger families in the area. Dont know if this person is beloning but there is a margaret badger born 1793 MT was this Georges wife and living in Dowlais at the time.
other possible links which i have not explored yet within MT
Maria Badger sister to mary ann possible death 1838
Thomas Badger 1845
elizabeth possible 1850
-
Hi Astley7 yes i found John thats what made me ask the question.
Have you considered the Tithe map for Merthyr might help?
-
Toni there are Maria 12. Mary 4 .Elizabeth 11 mo with the widowed Rebecca in 1851 but James died in 1846 so it looks like Elizabeth was john Priors child
Wow the larceny situation looks interesting Elm tree is going through the cases now
Trees
-
maybe the PR's will show that as even if a woman was married her husbands name would be shown if he was the father or not on birth certs. - i dont know about widowed mothers.
i came across one entry in the PR's of a baptisim of a child by his / her mother and the person has written thatthe mother reputes the fatehr to be her husband who has been away serving for over a year now and so this cannot be the case - although it doesnt actaully say who the father is.
-
Trees
Further to last post Mary (Ann) was actually 11 in 1851, I believe the age (4) was wrongly transcibed from the original page. Yes I also think that John Prior was Elizabeths father. No clear record of John Prior after 1851, at least nothing in Wales. I don't know if Elizabeth took his name when Rebecca married.
Ray
-
The John Badger 1817 had a father John Badger and mother Ann, so I don't think that this is a sibling for James. There is a Charles Badger 1829 son of Edward and Maria (could easily be wrongy transcibed from Martha) baptised in the same church as James Badger. However whilst this quite rewarding for the Badger line it is not helping sort out who Georges parents were.
-
On An..ry the larceny cases are as follows
1816 Summer Assizes Jacob Carter 18 month imprisonment
1808 Summer Assizes George CARTER No bill discharged
1818 Lent Larceny George Carter No bill
16 Oct 1843 County Sessions Taunton George age 27 3months imprisonment (born 1816)
11 Jan 1841 County Adjourned Session George CARTER age 23 Not guilty (born 1818)
26 June 1843 County sessions George CARTER age 20 10 weeks imprisonment (born1823)
26 Mar 1865 Lent Assises George CARTER no age given 2 previous convictions for felony10 months imprisonment
So the Jacob looks like Jacob baptised:
120 25 Dec 1815 Jacob M James Hannah CARTER Paulton Coalminer
But the Georges can't be sorted from the dates given there are 5 between 1814-1817 8 born between 1816-1819 one in 1820 then nothing till our 2 in 1827 and thats just Paulton Georges and these court cases covered the whole of Somerset
your George has a child born Sep qtr 1866 so if 10 month meant 10 months then not as now so when in the September quarter was little George born July Aug or Sep that could prove your George Innocent or keep him in the picture for the prosoner I doubt if this your George he has all but one child born in Gelligaer so why would he be committing crime in Somerset?
-
Yes you are right Ray looking at the image it is 11 not 4 thanks for that Annoying but I have to go and replenish the cupboards at Mr S..ry's establishment or we don't eat tonight ;D Keep up the good work folks
Trees
-
Hi all. Can I clear up something please?
Julia Carter (b. 1857), who married George Almond (my Great Grandparents) was the daughter of George Carter and Elizabeth, nee Chapman. George Carter's parents were Joseph and Mary, nee Bull, and HIS parents were Joseph and Prudence, nee Bennett.
Hope that helps!
All the best,
Colin Hunt
-
Colin is an old aquaintance and has the relivant certificates and family knowledge so it was indeed Susanna's Julia who married James Badger Carter so where was that Julia in 1881 she seems to have evaporated ???
Trees
-
I don't know if this is relevant, but there was a Julia Emma Carter, married to a James, living up the road in Bitton in 1881 - both born in High Littleton circa 1856 and 1853 respectively.
Colin.
-
Thanks Colin,
I've asked if anyone can look at the marriage entry for the Martyr marriage that should show if she was a widow and if her father was known.
I am sure she isn't the Julia (TAYLOR)married to William George Carter in case anyone finds them they have a child born in 1888 after the Merthyr marriage
Trees
-
JUst thinking out loud have you checked the tithe maps for Badgers? and Carters ?
also Tax records it might be worth askign the Local RO what tax records they hodl for Taunton and what epriod do they cover tax has been around for ever
parish rates ditto.
-
Good thinking Toni* I can see we are going to need a mini meet at Cardiff RO the "check records" list is growing by the Minute
So we need from the RO in Cardiff
Baptism & Marriage records for George and Mary Ann's Children
Look for evidence of local Badgers sounds like nature study :)
Death records for Francis,Badger and Carter
Any useful tax and rate records
School records
The Somerset Taunton list is huge as far as Carters goes you might as well do a place study for Paulton !
but it would be interesting to check courts and leases as we know there are some there The jacob lease is worth a chase
I've been thinking about that one it says Jacob a miner from Paulton A small mine owner would be described as a miner wouldn't he( I'm thinking of Mr Blanfield from "Coalhouse" he was a miner but owned the private mine
Trees trying to find a space in the diary asp
-
i dont know if he would cal imself a miner if he owned the place? would he have said miner and mine owner or the like?
this should be on the tithe maps
-
Have just recieved the birth certificate for John Henry Carter born 1 May 1862 (7 month baby?). He is shown as being born in Withy Mills, Paulton.
On the 1861 census Withy Mills is where the widowed Jacob Carter was living with his daughter and son in law (Keziah and Mark Hall) and his youngest son HENRY - is that a clue?
Now I assume that Paulton was small enough in 1862 that there was little difference between Withy Mills and Bloomfield (where Jacob & Sarah lived) but what does anyone else think, or know?
Still waiting for James John birth certificate to see if George is named father, was expecting today but will be next week now.
Regards
Ray
-
I'd guess there is about a mile and a half between Withy Mills and Bloomfield.
Colin.
-
Whilst I have not got a birth registration I have a burial for a Annie Carter (age 2) 9 Dec 1886, daughter of George and Mary Ann.
Also burial of David Joseph Carter (age 2) 18 Jan 1871 son of George and Mary Ann.
Also Burial of George Carter (age 55) 10 Feb 1883.
All Pentwyn Cemetery, Fochriw.
I am so please to have found these!!
Regards
Ray
-
If James John Carter (Badger) married the Julia who was Sussanah's daughter this would (I believe) pretty well rule out George being the son of Jacob and Martha. However can I offer another option. There was a Julia Carter born abt June 1861 to Issac Carter amd Mary Dando (M.march qtr 1853).
Would need a marriage certificate to confirm but seems more likely. In 1881 there was a Julia Carter (born Paulton 1860) a servant to James Titley in Bathwick. How she got to Merthyr?
-
That was MY Julia (actually born 1957). James Titley's family business was also where my Mum worked much later on.
Colin.
-
Sorry folks I had a day off .(lovely Prom Albert Hall)
Ray why does it rule out Julia daur of Susannah Its not unknown for cousins to mary
I think the birth of John Henry in Withy Mills was quite likely to have been in Keziah's house she seems to have taken over the Matriachal role after her mother's death so it would be natural for George to turn to her to help with the birth as Mary Ann's own mother was dead. I think it adds yet another pointer to George being son of Jacob and Martha
I have from Bath BMD
Death
CARTER Julia 0 Clutton Bath CLU/8/122 1862
birth
CARTER Julia Clutton Bath DANDO CLU/12/323 1861
However to add to the fun we had this daughter of Henry Carter and Keziah DANDO married 25 Dec 1848
Isaac CARTER married Eliza PROVERB and Mary DANDO dau of Charles Dando marries Soloman DANDO son of Thomas (fathers given in Yahoo transcripts) from Bath BMD in 1853 don't forget the Bath BMDs tell you who married who the Free BMDs give the qtr and everyone who married on the page but doesn't pair them
Trees
-
Trees
I think that death in 1862 pretty well excludes the Carter/Dando Julia anyway. Only one Julia born in Somerset in 1861 to Carter/Dando June 1861 and therefore the death aged 0 in March 1862, I would suggest, is likely the same Julia. Should have checked before I posted. Could our Julia be from somewhere else i.e. Bristol or Stroud?
I concur entirely with you on the Withy Mills bit, but how can we make it more concrete?? I don't have the 1861 census to hand but how big was the house? could they have taken another 4 people?
Further to my earlier post on graves I have also located Julia's grave, and I did see it today. A rather nice headstone (far better than I expected) and inscription but unfortunately no mention of parents.
I have also determined that these other graves are also at Pentwyn Fochriw
James John 1936 (aged 77)
Gertrude 1879 (5 weeks), and !!
Mary Ann Carter (Badger/Jenkins) age 80.
There is also a grave of a Clare Carter 1922 (age 14) who I believe is a child of James John from a second marriage.
St Andrews (Pentwyn graveyard), is a lovely little chapel with wonderful views down over the Darren Valley. Need to get a grave plan to locate the other graves.
Trees, you seem to have lost me a little with the Carter/Dando/Proverb etc.
-
Hi Ray
I will pop over This week and have a look I think I know where some of the graves are. I will draw a map of directions.
Lisa
-
Street Address as we know them today were not in existence in the early census years , you will notice later they became more regimental sometimes it would look like they ave moved but in fact other propeties had been built around them, you need to use a local landpoint such as a pub to work out if they moved or their house was rebumebred etc etc
-
Ray the size of the house wouldn't exclude them taking in any more relations my dear mum lived in a two bedroom(one above the other) one living room, back to back in B'ham with 15 children(12 boys) their parents and at one time the Grandmother too!
Necessity is a clever inventor of space ;D
Trees
-
Necessity is the mother of invention ;D
-
Hi All
Just received the birth certificate for James John. There is bad news and bad news. No father named and he was born in the workhouse, 28 December 1858.
So we don't know if George was the daddy after all. But at least it looks like Mary Ann got out of the workhouse by herself, to be living on her own with John James in 1861.
Just to remind all, we have found the graves of John James, his wife Julia and Mary Ann.
Regards
Ray
-
Hi all I had a short time in Cardiff RO this morning with very little usefull results We totally failed to find James Carter and Julia's marriage in church and chapel records I wonder if they had a civil marriage?I have taken down all the Badger and Carter information I could find and Will post it as soon as I can type it up
But to go on with
Wesleyan Methodist
Maria Badger dau of James/Rebecca age 3 yr 8 m baptised 18 Jan 1842
Mary Ann Badger dau of James/Rebecca age 1 yr baptised 18 Jan 1842
Thomas Badger son of James/Rebecca age 6w 30 Oct 1842
Mary Ann may have simply used the Work house infirmary for the birth, there weren't many hospitals around for ordinary folk my gt gran died in the WH Infirmary but was never listed as an inmate Lets hope that was the case. Did you know entry into the work house was purely voluntaryin fact they had to apply to go in. and the inmates could leave when ever they wanted few did if they had no home or means of support
Trees
-
Ray sorry I notice I did not answer the Carter /Dando /Proverb question (reply72)
You said in reply 69
There was a Julia Carter born abt June 1861 to Issac Carter and Mary Dando (M.march qtr 1853).
But I found from the Bath BMD
CARTER Julia Clutton Bath DANDO CLU/12/323 1861
and a death the next year
CARTER Julia 0 Clutton Bath CLU/8/122 1862
Which looks like the same child
You thought she was the daughter of Isaac and Mary DANDO but I found Isaac CARTER married Eliza Proverb not Mary Dando who married Solloman DANDO the marriages appear in the Yahoo transcripts with the brides and grooms linked up (Free BDMs give all four names so you can't tell who married who from it.So I have put Julia 1861 as daughter of Henry CARTER and Kesiah DANDO who married 25 Dec 1848
Hope that clarifies things
Well done on finding the graves did you take photos?
-
Hi Trees
Firstly I now understand the Carter/Dando situation, thanks.
Secondly great work on the Badger baptism records, thats really really great. That ties in with the great investigation work that Lisa (Astley7) is doing at Merthyr library.
Lisa has found a death record for a Thomas Badger buried in what we believe to be the family grave in 1846. This must be the same Thomas surely? But James's death was registered the same month (Sept 1846) did they die together??. This needs certificates and investigation!!!
Whilst the baptisms were done in the baptist church (so was James in 1816), the marriage was in the Parish Church. Am I right in thinking that Baptists were not allowed to conduct marriages at that time?
With regard to Mary Ann in the workhouse, need to see if I can get the entry and exit records.
Trees I now have the certificates for:
Mary Ann & Georges Marriage
John Henry Carter birth
James John Badger (Carter) birth
If you or anyone wants copies please pm me (I don't think I can attach certificates to a pm so I would need email address.)
-
Tree's
Have not taken photo's of graves yet, waiting to locate Mary Ann and others first. But will do.
Ray
-
Badger Burials found today
Merthyr Tydfil Burial Ground
Charles 2 Mar 1840 Caedraw 11
James 8 Jul 1846 Caedraw 30
Thomas 15 Mar 1845 High St 24
Thaomas 2 Mar 1844 Caedraw 17m
Thomas 3 Jul 1846 Caedraw 15 m
James 5 Mar 1833 Caedraw 38
Jerimiah 27 Apr 1823 Billage 2
Jane 8 Apr 1835 Bridge st 25
Baptisms Wesleyan Pontmorlais MT
Charles born19 Mar 1829 Edward Currier Maria bap 12 Apr 1829 MT
Sarah 18 Jul 1830 William Grocer Rosanna 15 Aug 1830 MT
James__ William Nailer Martha 26 May 1816
ZOAR Independent Chapel
David son of John/Anne 29 Sep 1811
John son of John/Anne 23 Jul1815
John son of John/Anne 2 Nov 1817
Margaret dau of John/Anne 29 Oct 1820
Bethany Ind/ Dowlais
David son of William/Elizabeth 24 Sep 1828
-
It looks like there were two little Thomases one born Sep 1842 died Mar 1844
and a second born Apr 1845 died Jul 1846 and as James also died Jul 1846 it looks like an infectious disease in the house the death certificate should show that up I wonder why I didn't see a the bapt of the second ThomasI don't think they were very committed hence the little girls being bap together and not babes
You are quite right about the marriage not being allowed in the Baptist Chapel 1818
Lisa has sent me the Marriage and birth of John Henry I'll pm an e mail address for John James please
Trees
-
I was talking to a local Historian and the only place you could get married for that time was St Tydfils in town, At the time of james and his son died tyoid was within Merthyr town there was alway a fever going around due to the conditions and the strikes and roits didnt help no food or water. no money.
best wishes
-
Typhoid was horrid we are so fortunate to be born in our era with out these horrors aren't we
Here are some marriages I found can't see how they fit in yet but its worth putting them on file in case they fit in later again just from an index will look at the entries if any one wants more detail
Marriages1717-1837 Parish church Merthyr Tydfil
BADGER Charles REES Margaret 8 Jan 1810 Banns
BADGER John DAVIES Ann 14 Ap 1800 Banns
BADGER Watkin WILLIAMS Margaret 9 July 1832
BADGER William REMNON Jane 4 Ap 1881
BADGER Mary Ann LLEWELYN David 9 May 1836
-
Looking at the marriage certificate for Rebecca FRANCIS and James BADGER in 1838. that Ray has, we can see that she was a minor and the certificate was signed by a Thomas FRANCIS no father's name was given
Looking at the 1841 census there are several Thomas FRANCIS in the Merthyr area that could have signed for her
interestingly there is one particular one that leaps out
HO107/1415 /10 fo 6 p 5
Thomas FRANCIS its been mis transcribed as Swarap! 1786
Rebecca 1786 and John 1821 don't forget its 1841 so rounded now these are all born out of county
Was this our Rebecca's family was she adopted by this Thomas and Rebecca hence the lack of a father's name or is this a total red herring she was supposedly from Pembroke so can we find these three on the 1851 census to see if they were also Pembroke
trees
-
Oh boy there is a Thomas on the 1851 census that could be the younger one with Thomas and Rebecca from Pembroke he is married to an Ann
Are we on to something here?
HO107 2455 fo 440 p59
Don't get to carried away he's in Cardiff a ships carpenter so not likely really
H
-
But there is a William FRANCIS in Briton Ferry from Pembrokeshire with childrenThomas and Rebecca born in Merthyr now they could be interesting
HO107 2463 fo 66 p 7
Back to finding baptisms for FRANCIS have you been looking for any Liza?
Try children of Thomas and Rebecca and William and Blanch(e) it looks like the moved to briton Ferry between 1843-1848
And look there are only 2 entries between Thomas and Rebecca and this William and Blanch in 1841
This is looking good
IGI C103071 1804 - 1837
has a Mary Ann
16 JUN 1836 Pont-Morlais English Wesleyan
to a William and Blanch nee MORTON
H
-
in 1861 the William says he's from Milford so should we be looking at milford baptisms for Rebecca?
-
Have found 4 bapitisms for children born to Thomas and Rebecca in Marloes:
Rebecca 29 June 1817
Martha 5 March 1820
John 31 March 1822
Mary 7 March 1813
No sign of a William
Ray
-
The William should be 1811 from Milford now if we can find a marriage for Thomas and Rebecca perhaps in milford we could be on to something I'll ask on the Pembs board fingers crossed
Was that list from Family Search C082811 1799 - 1877 Ray?
H
-
Tree's
Yes thats right C082811, sorry I should have placed the reference.
Ray
-
When I get back from France I'll post my Carter line in the hope that it might assist!
Colin
-
Have we decided on James Badger's birth yet Ray has a tree showing him as son of an Edward and Martha but where from? from his death we deduce he was born in 1816 but not having him on acensus is a handicap to locating him and unfortunately there is no father's name on the marriage certificate
The nearest I found in Cardiff was the baptism of a James 26 May 1816 in the Wesleyan Methodist Chapel in Pontmorlais son of William a nailer and Martha we know his children were also baptised in a Wesleyan Methodist Chapel and that he too was a nailer are these clues or red herrings how can we prove or disprove his parentage? Any ideas? We know Rebecca was from Pembroke but as they married in Merthyr they need not have both been from Pembrokeshire
Thanks Colin enjoy the break "bon chance mon amis"
Trees
-
Ah I have got the 1841 census HO107/1415/ 9 fo 59 p28 and can see why Ray's tree has Edward but I am sceptical about it
After James, Rebecca, Maria, and Mary there is the single / which indicates a different household in the house such as a lodger or boarder( its clearer on later censuses when a schedule number is allocated to other households within a single house.)
The extra person is Edward BAGIN its quite different to the way BADGER has been written this Edward Bagens is born 1781-1786 out of county and was also a nailor now was the Bagens a mistake or not lets see if he can be found on the 1851 census
Trees
-
Ooh hands up its me thats wrong I've just checked my notes it is definitely Edward and Martha I must have slipped down a line when typing it up sorry folks so is that census entry a slip of the enumerators pen and that is in fact James's father could well be I stand humble and beg forgiveness
Trees :-[
-
HI all
After a lot of searching down the library the only document I have found for Edward and Martha is James Christening certificate. I have been through every cemetry record ect but to no avail for them both only things I have is what a think is Edward Badger and a girl Ann aged 15 living same house as James 1841 census, And a police court record (the last one could find) for a Edward Badger MT for 1849 I cannot find the newspaper recording. I have how ever found a 100% match for Edward Badger from Merthyr Tydfil 29th June 1847. Charged with Larcery within a dwelling house. Convicted of Stealing Pieces of iron property of Sir John Guest of Dowlais Ironworks. 4mths Jail. So we know he was here in the village then. Did he die in prison or didnt brother coming back to MT.
I have now complete BMD and christening for named badgers of the Merthyr Area if this is any help to anyone. I have put them on seperate excel sheets and date order I am once again down The library tomorrow as I can see the MT workhouse records if there is anything that needs looking up.
I dont think I am going to like what these records will say ?.
Best wishes
Lisa
-
Don't forget we also have the conspiracy trial in 1834 with Edward Badger 51 years and James Badger 18 years. I know we have not yet seen a report saying the two were father and son, but it looks fairly solid to me.
-
Just back from Fochriw cemetery. Have found all the Carter graves, including John Henry (1862) and his wife and some of his children. Have photo's.
Not entirely sure about Mary Ann, the headstone does not say if she is buried with George and the children.
I also believe I have found why we could not find a birth registration for Annie. Annie is buried with George, and shown as his daughter. However George died 10th Feb 1883 whilst Annie was buried 9 Dec 1886 at age "2 years and 3 months". This would mean her birth date would have been around August 84 (about 20 months after George died). Was John Jenkins her father?
-
Umm looks like John Jenkins was Ann's dad doesn't it.
Do you think Edward was in jail at the time of James and Rebecca's marriage so rather than give his father and mention occupation "prisoner" he thought omition was the better option?
-
Trees
Great minds and all that, exactly what I was thinking. Also if had been upsetting the local Iron and coal masters perhaps James was placing some distance between him and his father.
-
One of my married in families changed from Osbaldeston to James after a term in Debtors prison is that why Edward seems to disappear has he changed his name completely?
-
Hi all I dont think Mary Ann is burried with george I have all the inscription of the Carter graves and I Personally i dont think she is.
Edward was not in jail when James and Rebecca got married I have the crime records and entries for all Badgers 1800 - 1870. for glamorganshire.
Personally I think that Edward died in prison or didnt come back to Merthyr. I also think Edward was his middle name, Perhaps martha was a Margaret
-
Did you notice the Charles baptised to Edward and MARIA in 1927 in the Pontmorlais Wesleyan was that the same Edward and was Marta Maria or was there a second marriage? Charles' father was a currier a worker with horses not a nailor
Trees
-
Snap thats what I was about to say there is a Charles Badger 1829 born to EDWARD and MARIA Christened Same church as James More to my thinking a Family unit came to live here.
There is also a Thomas Badger in Aberdare for the time, no other Badgers/family He was a coachman Died in 1810 aged 47 Duffryn. dont know if this links in its a different name so you dont find many in the area.
-
The last recording we have for EDWARD was a police court charge, in 1849 when he got 6mths yet again for Larceny no other record for him after that.. What prison would he have gone to it dont state in the newspaper only that the Judge didnt not want to hear a statement or a plea, he was just sent down.
-
then there are John and Ann having children bap in ZOAR Independent Chapel 1811-1820 they had David, John, John, & Margaret don't know his occupation
-
It looks like the Charles died age 11
Charles 2 Mar 1840 Caedraw at MT Burial ground
Same part of town as James and family is this significant I wonder
-
There is another Badger who was burried in the next grave to James its a w Thomas Badger and another person not named Badger in there also I will have a look again at the burrial records this morning perhaps its a link. Does everyone thing these badgers are all linked/same family as me ?
-
Its worth noting all the Badgers you find in the area in case we fit them in later
I have just turned up Matilda HOLBROOK in 1871 working as a servant in Cardiff do you remember she was with Martha's Jacob in 1851 and I was wondering if she was a lovechild of George as she is Carter mother HULBERT in Bath BMD but HOLBROOK in Free BMD and was listed under George and before the other children of Jacob all very strange she was Carter in 1851 and 1861 but is now HOLBROOK in 1871 and George and Mary Ann had a Matilda in 1876.
Both The older brothers were married by 1851 and the next one down was surely too young to have had Matilda so that leaves father Jacob at 64!! not likely it all points at George!
Ah well whats one more mystery when we are dealing with the CARTERS ;D
Trees
-
Another step back Matilda HOLBROOK was from Timsbury daughter of a George and Mary so she is a red herring uggg CARTERS!!!
-
Hello All
I have just come back from the Library I have found the christenings for the carters a long list of them.
Does anyone want the information. Let me know These christenings are from a St Catwig In Gelligaer 4 Miles from Deri A long walk away. Also I have obtained all the BMD for St Tydfils for the Francis family.
Lisa
-
on the badger front of things I have had a look at the grave that is next to James Badgers it is a w Thomas Badger, it reads
in memory of w Thomas Badger of this town who died march 11th 1845 aged 34 also george frederick son of Orlando and Marianne Shelland died Nov 29 1846 aged 6mths ..... Any link
I also found another badger wedding in Vaynor Church William and Hannah Brace 21st Sept 1835. Seems you went there if you couldnt get married in Merthyr. I have looked at all the fever graves for the town of merthyr no Badgers. There were 6 other cemetries within MT around about the time to try and located a martha no records have been kept. Only one cemetry has any grave left and thats in George town again no records
-
gosh you have been busy Liza they'll be making a bed you for you at the RO]I wonder why that Badger was in that grave its worth a look for a connection. I'd love your research notes to see how many we can link in. I;m off for a short break Thursday until Wednesday so it will be good to take some data to work with in the evenings or I think I'll have FH withdrawal problems ;D
-
no problem I will email you all that has been found hopefully there maybe something some where. its driving me mad that I cant find a connection. I have also found toby some research and emailed it to her.
lisa
-
Thats really kind of you Lisa your a real star chatter already
-
Looking at the mysterious Thomas Badger iburried with the Shellard. His birth from the MI was about 1811 and as he died in 1845 I looked at the 1841 census There is one lodging with som Philips all born out of county. So I looked on Family Search I wondered if he was another son of Edward
There is a Thomas bap 07 JUL 1811 Wesleyan, Stourbridge, Worcester son of Edward and MARIA born 5 Jul 1811
There is only one in Hereford he is bap 16 Ap 1809 son of Thomas and Elizabeth
Is it worth persuing the Edward and Maria up?
H
-
These Badgers always a mystery entailed. The name on the grave is w Thomas would he be a William Thomas tho. Its strange that he is in with Thomas if not related in some way the Headstone was sandstone quite large and inscripted if he was a pauper I dont think the family would have had that put on the headstone. I know they burried Paupers in graves with others but I think if you can put that inscription on the headstone then they had some funds to put this person in a grave with a wooden cross.
It looks as tho it was Thomas,s grave as he was burried first, not vice verse.
The plot thickens.
talking to the historian yesterday stated that they must have been English all welsh speaking had graves inscripted in welsh. No one spoke english unless you moved into Merthyr hence they use of the english speaking Chapel all other services in the area where conducted in Welsh for the time.
Lisa
-
W could mean anything was it a little W or a capital?
Widow of Thoams Badger
Wife of Thomas Badger
-
In the deaths uncovered by Lisa we have a Thomas Badger buried in 1845 age 24. The death register shows a date of 15 March whilst the MI shows 11 March. e.g. he died 11th and was buried on the 15th. The age 24 could easily have been wrongly transcribed as 34.
On the 1841 census there is a Thomas Badger (25 years - rounded up?) with a Mary Badger (40 I think? - rounded down) both born outside county. Family search has 4 Thomas Badgers with a mother Mary 1820, 1821 and 1822.
Thomas is also shown as a Grocer, I think, my census doc is not very clear.
Whilst very interesting I don't think this is related to Edward or James.
I do however have some doubts about James mother being Martha or Maria. Lisa did you see the original document? could Maria be wrongly transcribed as Martha. Why did James and Rebecca name first child Maria? After his mother/her mother or just because they liked the name?
Ray
-
Oh Oh Oh
I have found a website with Badgers and Francis's - our Badgers and Francis's
They have Thomas Francis (1783 Old Melford, Neyland, Pem - dying before 1851 in Merthyr) marrying Rebecca (1780 Pem - dying after 1851) and having 8 children:
David 1805, Thomas 1808, William 1810, Mary 1813, Ann 1815, Rebecca 1817, Martha 1820 and John 1822. They have marriages for William, Rebecca and John.
The link is
http://www.haine.org.uk/trcornishwales/names2.htm
Have not yet contacted the website owner
Ray
-
Have just emailed the website owner and told him/her of our interest.
Ray
-
It is a small w but states his life, end peace after the date of death
Lisa
-
Well done Ray
I have check the dates and it looks like you hit gold
Lisa
-
Did you also see the tree on An..try owned by a chap from Leeds? http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/10576867/family/pedigree
I told him of our interest and he has looked in and will probably join us soon. With so many eyes and brains we should make great progress.
Well done Ray this could be great news
Ooh look he has linked that William Francis in too I just had a feeling he was a son living so close to Thomas in 1831
H
-
It is a small w but states his life, end peace after the date of death
Lisa
oh thats blows my theory out of the window
-
Have received information from David Walsh regarding the Francis line, including the family bible entries which confirm the names given earlier.
Following this information I believe I may have found the death of Rebecca Francis (wife of Thomas, mother of Rebecca Francis/Badger) and it looks like she may have lived longer than we expected.
Freebmd gives a Rebecca Francis Sept 1868 Merthyr age 88. The family bible gives her birth as 1780.
There are too many Thomas Francis between 1840 and 1850 to determine which is our Thomas.
Ray
-
Great work and a good contact more eyes to help with the hunt he has got so much further than us on the Francis when we get back I'll have another go at finding the Jacob Carter
H
-
1841
HO107/1415 /10 fo6 p4
(Transcribed as SWARAP !
CaeDraw Rector St ?
Thomas FRANCIS 55 Out of County
Rebecca 55 Out of County
John 20 Out of County
Thomas NICHOLAS 25 Out of County
Isabella DAVIS 25 from county
John LLEWELYN 20 Out of County
2 Entries
William FRANCIS 30 Out of County
Blanche 25 Out of County
Thomas 3 from county
David 5 Mth from county
John LLEWELYN 60 Out of County
the 2 Llewelyns were masons Thomas a fitter John a roller
William a Pudler and Isabell a dress maker
-
1851 HO107/2458 fo704 p9
Rebecca FRANCES a widow from Pembroke with a lodger John PASMORE from Devon (I've got Devon Passmores on our tree must check him out)
1861 RG 9/4052 fo 80 p6
Rebecca FRANCIS on her own 3 harris Court form Pembroke Marlais!
she was a House Holder
Now lookin for the other siblings on censuses should be packing ;D
H
-
on the badgers front.
I have found that Edward badger bought an house near the star inn Caedraw, Picton street. on 1841 Cenus james and family are living at picton street. in 1851 census James is still living at Picton street and there is a edward badger Not spelt correctly bager and a ann living at the same address the one edward bought. Is this Ann, James sister ? it has it as Daughter.
Also found a marriage of a Edward and a MARIA bashfield married in kingswinwood 1810. There are no entries for any edward marrying an edward open mind I think.
-
Lisa
Are you sure that James is on your 1851 census.
I have the 1851 census: HO107/2458 Folio 428 P45
Where the name is recorded as Bodger with:
Rebeca, Maria, Mary & Elizabeth
and lodger John Prior, who we believe is Elizabeths father
We have James dying in 1846.
I don't have immediate access to the 1851 census to see if Edward is a second seperate family in the house.
Ann was shown on the 1841 census as 15 years old.
Ray
-
I notice that the Francis family has made an appearance in this discussion. For what it's worth, I have Francis ancestry from High Littleton and Farmborough, adjacent to Paulton. I believe they came up from Compton Dundon , near Street.
Colin.
-
Hi Colin
I think our Francis family are definite Pembroke folk - we do seem to have moved around a bit on this topic that started at Paulton!
Ray
-
Hello Everyone,
I have come across this site accidentally, and was amazed to see your search for George Carter , I am searching for my George Carter ( a coal miner) born in Paulton Cambridgeshire, he was born around 1820c and he was married to Hester ? she was born in Rhymney, Glamorgan wales in 1840c.
George had a son called Albert James Carter b.1848c also born at Paulton ,he was married to Cathrine ? They moved to Bedwelty Monmoutshire, Wales showing in the 1881 census.
Albert James Carter had a daughter named Hester Carter b1867c she married Evan Davies from Ebbw Vale in 1900.
I was wondering if any of mine liked up with yours! It would be great to get more info on the early Carter's in Paulton.
I hope someone can help. Many Thanks, C
-
hello and welcome to Rootes chat
Your George married first Hester James 22 Mar 1842 in Paulton SOMERSET
27 Mar 1842
George CARTER full age Bachelor Collier Paulton John CARTER Collier
Hester JAMES full age Spinster Paulton Thomas JAMES Collier
WIts: Thomas CARTER Hester CHIVERS
she was said to be born about 1820 in Paulton on the 1851 census HO107/1939 fo118 p18 and on the 1861 census too RG 9/4003 fo 25 p17 where did you get the information of her birth in Glamorgan?
George and Hester had 4 children all in Paulton before Hester died in Bedwellty Q2 1863 Bedwelty 11a 69 ( she is then Esther)
George then married Selina COBB Q3 1863
Carter George Bristol 6a 51
Cobb Selina Bristol 6a 51
George and Selina had 5 children all in Bedwellty
George was baptised 22 June 1818 Paulton son of John(1788 app) and Betty HEAl he was one of 10 children John and Betty married 24 Oct 1809 Paulton
Hope that starts you off
Trees
-
just a quickie the witnesses of that wedding I gave were Georg'e brother Thomas b 1821 Paulton and Hester Chivers who he married in 1846
It made me very sad to read the 1841 census HO107/ 939/18 fo 9 p11 to see Hester age 16 and her littke brothers Benjamin 13, Joseph 12,Jesse 8 and Sampson 5 were all Coal miners as were both their parents Thomas 64 and Sarah 44.
The family lived in Victoria Bedwellty from the children's births on the 1891 census you can see a bit about the place with a photo here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,329185.0.html
H.
-
Hi, So excited to receive this fantastic information!
A huge thank you , this is really great, I can now move forward
Thanks again
Caz :)
-
Pleased to be of some help :)
If you have not got access to the censuses they appear on let me know and I'll PM the information. Do you want the children of John and Betty?
I can not find John's baptism in Paulton so you will need to check nearby parishes also there is no baptism in Paulton for a Betty Heal there is however this baptism for a female (the name has not been transcribed so has not been able to be read by the person who has looked at the register for Free Reg)
http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Baptisms&RecordID=1698664
Paulton Holy Trinity 74 25 Apr 1786
Sex F Father James Mother Ann Surname HEAL
Poor John Carter died age 44 during the Cholora eppidemic he was buried 12 Oct 1832 with a C for Cholera on the Parish record Two of his little sons also died of Cholera
Samuel bap 8 jan 1828 buried 12 Oct 1832 C
William bap 17 Oct 1830 bur 9 Oct 1832 C
Betty died aged 64 and was buried 14 Mar 1849
Your George with his brothers Thomas,James and Job are all with Betty in 1841 HO107/ 939/18 fo33-34 p17-18
Regards H
-
This is an old thread about the Cholera in Paulton
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,236292.0.html
it has links to photos of the memorials bottom page 2 of the linkby Bagpuss_Janet reply 4. I had not linked your family to my tree then so they are not mentioned on the list however you now have the details
:) H
-
Please may I join this discussion group and seek your collective wisdom. Tracing my wife's family back I have arrived with George Carter son of Rubin and Mary or Mary Ann in Paulton
the 1861 census RG9 P1679 F178 P35 shows George born abt 1845 son of Reuben Carter,born abt 1815 coal miner of Withy Mills, Brittons, Paulton and Mary.
the 1851 census confirms the above (HO107 P1939 f153 P24) and adds Mary's maiden name as Reuben and Mary Ann are living with her mother Lidda Shale who is widowed , born abt 1787.
I am stuck now with Reuben Carter born about 1815. I live too far away to visit the village although I would love to search the church yard. The IGI is a muddle of different submitted records which are conflicting.
Can any of you link my family to yours? do you have any suggestions as to how to sort out Reuben Carters ancestry.
The census shows George to have worked in the iron foundry
many thanks for reading this
dochines
-
Hi dochines,
The IGI has very poor coverage in Somerset. You'll find FreeREG much more helpful:
http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl
Too helpful in a way, there were two Reuben Carters baptised at Paulton in 1815 and another in 1816!
You can also find transcriptions of many of the Paulton parish registers at the Chewton Hundred group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chewton/
David
PS Another useful site is BathBMD
http://www.bathbmd.org.uk/index.php
It covers Bath and North East Somerset, so includes Paulton and Radstock. It has the advantage over other BMD sites that it gives the mother's maiden name for birth registrations. Reuben's wife was probably Mary Robbins.
Lidda "Shale" is doubly misleading. Firstly it should be "Hale", see the 1841 census. Secondly it wasn't her name when Mary was born. FreeREG gives Charles Hale married Lidia Robins in 1833. Either it was her second marriage or she wasn't married before. Looking for Mary's baptism on FreeREG will show you which.
-
Thanks David,
That was a very prompt response and gives me a lot to work through. I do appreciate the other web sites and links
dochines
-
Not 2 but three Reubens
bap 16 Jul 1815 son of Simon and Sarah nee Priddy
bap 22 May 1815 son of Jaob and Martha nee Hook
bap 9 Jun 1816 son of George and Elizabeth nee Anstee
Good luck with it
I too think your George is son of Mary Robbins who married her Reubens 11 Jan 1838 Farrington Gurney
11 11 Jun 1838
Rueben CARTER full age Bachelor Collier Paulton Jacob CARTER Collier
Mary ROBBINS full age Spinster Paulton
Wits: Jacob CARTER Grace CARTER additional witness: John ASHMAN;
Married in the parish church of Farrington, the parish church of Paulton being under repair
but the 1851 census suggests that George was born in Radstock and his mother was Mary Ann born in Holcomb in 1819
If we are right this sorts Reuben out to be son of Jacob
H
-
Jacob married Martha HOOK 27 Feb 1816 Paulton they had 12 children
look from reply 45 on for a discussion about jacob and add your thoughts the Paulton Carters really are a nightmare
H
-
Thank you for your help and support. I had found the three Reubens and am just begining to realise what a nightmare the Paulton carters are turning out to be .
dochines
-
Hi David I have this from Free Reg;
Place Midsomer Norton
Church St John the Baptist
MarriageDate 27 Apr 1833
GroomForename Charles
GroomSurname HEAL
GroomCondition Widower
BrideForename Lydia
BrideSurname ROBINS
FileNumber 9478
Cant see a Hale
1841 HO107/939 /17 fo34 p43
Rubin and Mary Carter are with Chas and Lidia HEAL in Midsomer Norton
Free BMD has deaths
Heal Charles Alfred Bath 11 51 Q1 1848
Heal Lydia Clutton 5c 547 Q1 1858
-
That's the couple I meant. I was thinking 'Hale' because of Lidda Shale.
Spellings were rather variable in those days. 'Heal' and 'Hale' are probably interchangeable. Or it could be that, even if they couldn't write, people still carefully distinguished the two surnames by pronunciation - in which case I assume 'Shale' was a mistake for 'Heal' rather than 'Hale'.
David
-
Glad we are in agreement David :) do you fit into the Carter family too?
I have 6 George's 1843-1846 I hope we are chasing the right one for dochines
-
No, I'm not related to the Carters as far as I know. I did have relatives at Withy Mills, but rather later.
I haven't traced all the other Georges, some can be ruled out quite easily. Mary and Lidia Robins fit in so well I'd be very surprised if they weren't from the right family.
David
-
This is what I think of the various Georges
George son of John and Priscilla Pain bap 22 May 1842 Paulton m Mary Ann Gregory
George son of John and Elizabeth Burton died 1861
George son of Reuben and Maria Watts bap 11 may 1843 m 1Mary Rawell 2Ann Laura Cane
George son of George and Ann Ashman m Eliza Ashman born 1844 midsomer Norton
George son of Reuben and Elizabeth Sparks born5 Aug 1845 bap and diedsame day 12 Aug 1845
George son of Rueben and Mary Robbins what happened to him? A George born about 1845 paulton m Rosina CURTIS is this Reuben and Mary's George?
George son of Elijah and Ann Brimble bap 23 Feb 1845died 1849
George son of George and Ann WEAVER in Tredegar Mon both parents from Paulton
Give it time David it seems everyone with connections to the Paulton area end up with at least one Carter ;D
The only way we have tried to sort them is to try to trace them all on a huge chart its been agony so far
How about this one George son of George and Martha nee Baily and George son or George and Martha Symes both baptised 25 Dec 1817 in Paulton ;D
Carter is a very rude cuss in our household ;D
H
-
you are all being so helpful thank you. I am trying to organise all the Georges, Reubens and other Carters into a Paulton database.
"My" George was definitely married to Rosina as they are together on several censuses. He was a iron foundry worker aged 16, then a fitter and turner later in life
The marriage that fits perfectly is to Rosina Curtis in 1865 4Q Bath district 5c 1304
best regards
dochines
-
I have gone out of the frying pan into the fire ! I have recently finished a major piece of work on the Smith family of Gloucesterwhich was also a nightmare. The search started in Rural Surrey and then went To Gloucester ended in Farringdon Gurney in Somerset with a name Spark(e)s! This was my Sister in law's family
To my amazement I have now arrived with another nightmare name Carter in Poulton, the very next village!!!
and guess what! there is a marriage of a Carter to a Sparkes
Is it going to be a case of what goes round comes round Have my brother and I chosen wives that are distantly related from 250 years ago. That looks my next challenge to prove or disprove this theory
Thanks for your help and guidance
dochines
-
As you can see I had already thought that your George was the one married to Rosina Curtis. You are also right a Reuben CARTER m Elizabeth SPARKES 25 Dec 1838 Paulton and of course they had a George among their 10 children it looks like their George and his twin Reuben were born 5 aug 1845sadly both twins died just 7 days old they were baptised the day they died. This Reuben was bap 24 Dec 1820 Paulton son of yet another Reuben bap 3 Sep 1779 and Betty from Magotsfield Gls
oh dear if this is your line we relate!
it goes like this
Simon CARTER m Mary Millard 25 Nov 1739 Paulton they had 9 ch
the 2nd ch was James who married Ann Maggs 5x gt grandparents on our tree 4th ch Reuben m Mary TUCKER their 3rd ch was the Reubens who m Betty? these are the pair I mention with the Reubens 1820.
H
-
A quick post before I go off for the weekend Liza and Ray are you onboard?
I can't locate Jacob Carter's baptism (have you made any progress with him? but Martha HOOK was baptised 22 Mar 1794 high Littleton dau of Ann Hook
now two of Jacob and Martha's children were bap in the Wesleyan chapel in Midsommer Norton which gives the mother's parents names
Kezia bap 1 Oct 1826 mother's parents were Thomas and Nanny HOOK
John bap 3 Apr 1831 mother's parents were Thomas Broadrib and Anne HOOK
Jacob and Martha Hook were the parents of Reuben who married Mary Robbins who we think are parents of George who married Rosina
Martha HOOK died in the second Cholera out break as did her 8th child John mentioned above
Martha buried 19 Nov 1849 John buried 8 Nov 1849 Marthas age was given as 47 which can't be correct Bath BMD gives 57 which is correct
so we have a rare find of an illegitimate child's father
H
-
Hi Hazel,
Don't be tempted to look at this until you return from your week end away!! I have traced and agree with you about most of the names and dates in your last email. I spent last night looking up the cholera epidemic which as a medic interested me.
What do you think of a possible match for Jacob's baptism 1 12 1793 at St Julians Church Wellow son of Benjamin Carter and Ann ( Parish Reg file no 5001 no register number )? This seemed the best match I could find
I was pleased about finding the thomas broadrib name from the baptism records. It suggest Nanny or Annie married between the baptisms of Kezia and john thiat is between 1 oct 1826 and 5 nov 1830
ken dochines
-
Hi all
What a great site.
This George Carter is my gg grandfather:
"George son of John and Priscilla Pain bap 22 May 1842 Paulton m Mary Ann Gregory"
So excited to learn his parents names :)
Also very jealous of those living close enough to pop over to the cemetary!
cheers
L
-
Welcome Lisa Oz ask if you need any clarification of what we have found or if you can add anything to the family :) That's what Rootschat is all about sharing the load.
Ken I hate to say this but I don't think Ann ever married in fact she had 5 children between 1784 and 1802 and apart from Martha's father being Thomas Broadrib and John born 1788 with a father William Challener I can#t see who the fathers of the other children were :o
Put Ann HOOK 1784+- 10 in Free Reg http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl for the other children
I am a little worried about the 1793 baptism his census and burial age all suggest nearer 1788 but it could be a late baptism I wonder if anyone can check the record to see if an age at baptism was mentioned or if any other children of the family were baptised at the same time which would also suggest a late baptism lets mark that with caution for the moment its the nearest we have so far He didn't have a Benjamin but his first daughter was and Ann I had assumed after Martha's mother I just feel his father is going to be another Reuben but that's pure supposition. There is a 5 year gap between Lea Oct 1783 and George March 1788 in the children of Reuben and Mary nee TUCKER and that George wasn't baptised or at least no baptism has been found yet. Jacob's first son was Reuben and the census returns say he was from Paulton. I just have a feeling he fits that family. But what happened to the Wellow chap if we can trace him a bit further it may be useful.
we had a good break thanks Ken and found a bit more about our Oxford family
H.
-
Lisa not sure how far you have got back here is the direct line for you to compare
John bap 27 Dec 1818 Paulton son of John & Mary nee SYMES (his second wife 7 known children he had 6 ch with first wife Eleanor AMESBURY)
John bap 24 May 1778 Paulton son of Steohen and Elizabeth nee MANDRELL( 6 known ch)
Stephen bap 5 Apr 1741 Paulton son of William & Martha (4 known ch)
Ask if you want the marriages and children etc
H.
-
Ken I hate to say this but I don't think Ann ever married in fact she had 5 children between 1784 and 1802 and apart from Martha's father being Thomas Broadrib and John born 1788 with a father William Challener I can#t see who the fathers of the other children were
Hi Trees and all
Trees, as we have previously discussed, I believe that my George is the son of Jacob Carter and Martha Hook (daughter of Ann(e) Hook and Thomas Broadribb). As you say Ann(e) had 5 children between 1784 & 1802, however I think there are 4 identified fathers:
1784 Abraham son of Abraham Cook
1788 John son of William Challenger
1794 Martha daughter of Thomas Challenger
1796 David son of James Stickler
1802 Ann (Father unknown)
An interesting aside is on 24 April 1844 under the burial entry of James CHALLENGER of Clutton, aged 22, is a note "James CHALLENGER was killed fighting with David HOOK of High Littleton." It should be noted that a William CHALLENGER of Clutton was the father of John HOOK, David's bastard half brother, born in 1788.
All the above information taken from the High Littelton History site:
http://www.highlittletonhistory.org.uk
Its ages since we spoke about the Carters, but it seems to me that the more we talk the more complicated it gets!!! I would love to put this to bed. As I said previously I think my George was from Jacob & Martha - but who knows!!!
-
Hi Ray glad you are on board its amazing how we keep being pulled back to the Carter family we had a great discussion and sorted many areas between us before fil took ill. He still has many problems but we are coping a little better now but still desperate to get back down West. I had quite forgotten the other fathers of Ann's children thank you for the link.
Ken do look at the High Littleton site Ray has given it has a good piece about the Cholera precautions that village took apart from the family interest. Must sign off for tonight I was up very early this morning
H
-
Thank you both for further suggestions. I looked through the High Littleton site at about midnight. Thank you Ray for pointing it out and H for the cholera content!
These Carters are proving much worse than the Smiths. although I was alone sorting the Smiths it has been tremendous to have other enthusiasts on board with the Carters.
I realise I am not the only one who works late at night and early mornings on our hobby!!
I have been looking at Rosina Curtis wife of " my" George Carter born 1845 (son of Reuben and Mary)
Rosina's parents were George Curtis and Susannah Young George was a stone mason Born in South Molton Devon abt 1804 but was living in Farrington Gurney by 1841
Susannah Young was born in High Littleton about 1806 according to 1861 census
George and Susanna also had a spell in Glamorgan in 1861 at 1Roderick row Llanfynwyd and in 1871 at 1 Bridge St Comda? Maesteg
It would seem many people from the Paulton area had a time in Glamorgan, I suspect they were made employment offers in the mining industry they could not refuse. does any one know the details of this was it perhaps better mining homes or the same mine owners in both places
dochines
-
Ken I live relatively close to Maesteg I think its Cwndu not Comda it means black pit and is near St John's Colliery( a pit I went underground in during my first employment :o locally St Johns was known as Cwm Du Colliery. Llanfynwyd should be Llangynwyd lots of lovely legends about that village I'll pm you about them. We have discovered that in Radstock museum there is an old poster advertising work in the South Wales mine field we also know that the mines had agents( I have one on my line) who went around the country recruiting labour Once one family had moved it wasn't long before brothers and cousins joined them in a particular area . Most of Paulton folk seemed to head for the Monmouth and Brecon mines look back at the start of this thread and you will find Lisa and Ray are descended from your Martha Hook and they are in the Merthyr Tydfil area After South Wales many headed North through Dudley and on to Durham.
I think you will find this interesting
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,157437.0.html
H
-
Ken if you google Someset Coal Mining you will see quite a lot of information about mining in that area (the wikipedia site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerset_coalfield is particularly helpful). It looks like most of the Somerset pits were smaller operations than the big pits of South Wales. However it also looks like many of the pits in the Paulton area were closing in the late 1800's, so it might have been easier to move to South Wales where new pits were opening rather than move on to existing pits in the Somerset area.
-
Ken I am now happy to link your George to Reuben and Mary Robbins. I have now got the 1871 census in Trowbridge has him born in Clandown which is part of Radstock (my only caution against him being Mary Robbin's son was the 1881 census which had his birth as Paulton not Radstock) he has the same children on both 1871 and 1881 so it all links up possitively Hooray that gets links another chunk of the chart up well.
H
-
[quote author=dochines link=topic=401090.msg3444282#msg3444282 date=1285840729
What do you think of a possible match for Jacob's baptism 1 12 1793 at St Julians Church Wellow son of Benjamin Carter and Ann ( Parish Reg file no 5001 no register number )?
I am a little worried about the 1793 baptism his census and burial age all suggest nearer 1788
Hi Trees & Ken. Trees, not to sure that the 1793 baptism is that far out actually. On the 1841 census Jacob is shown as 50 giving a possible birth of 1791, but as we know 1841 census ages were rounded. I don't have any other concrete info about Jacobs age past 1841. Its a while since I did anything with the Carters and because I was chasing the Gulliford line as well I have been getting a bit confused (!!!). However when I have time I will check Ken's suggestd baptism.
Ray
-
quick reminder Ray
1841 50 HO107/ 939/18 giving 1786-1791
1851 64 HO107/1939 fo150 p18 giving 1787
1861 72 RG 9/1679 fo117 p34 giving 1789
burial register 1865 78 giving 1787
H
-
Thanks for the update Trees, have been reading the postings and my notes to try and bring myself up to date - a few things seem to be out of place for me (I get easily confused these days, particularly with these Carters!!).
1. I don't seem to have the burial record for Jacob, and
2. I can't seem to find the link between Jacob and Keziah, who Jacob was living with in 1861 and I have identified as his daughter - help please!
Ray
-
Its called being over tired and over stressed Ray join the club after a day yelling my repeated sentences to a deaf 89 yr old believe me I get very confused.Today I sat between two very deaf old friends as each looked to me to explain what the other had just said Oh boy thank goodness for FH to keep me sane well good old FH and the Carters ';D'
Here you go;
Kezia Carter's baptism from Free Reg:
Place Midsomer Norton
Church Wesleyan Methodist Chapel
RegisterNumber 67
BaptismDate 01 Oct 1826
Forename Kezia
Sex F
FatherForename Jacob
MotherForename Martha
FatherSurname CARTER
MotherSurname HOOK
Abode Paulton in Paulton Parish
Notes mother's parents were Thomas and Nanny HOOK; bapt by H. POWIS
FileNumber 10136
Burial of Jacob Paulton free reg
Paulton
Church Holy Trinity
RegisterNumber 271
BurialDate 02 Sep 1865
Forename Jacob
Surname CARTER
Age 78
Abode Dunkerton
FileNumber 4814
H
-
Goodness you are quick with replies, whilst I was checking my facts you had replied.
I had not definitely found a death for Jacob either so thank you H
Kezia one of his 12 children first married William Parfitt 20 6 1848 at Holy Trinity Paulton. They had a daughter Sarah Ann Parfitt
William sadly died befor the 1851 census as Keziah is back at home with her father Jacob, both of them are widowed Also present are several of Jacobs other children Also present was Matilda Carter aged under 1 month described as a vistor I am not sure who her parents are? ( HO107 P1939 F150 P18)
by 1861 Kezia has married Mark Hall and they have several children Now Jacob is living with Kezia and Mark (RG9 P1679 F177 P34)
The reason I suggested that Anne Hook married Thomas Broadrib between the baptisms of her grandchildren Kezia and John ie between 1826-1830 is because the maternal grandparents are recorded on the baptismal records as well as parents Martha and Jacob
Hope that clarifies it as i see it now
Best regards to you both
K Dochines
-
Ken here is Ann HOOK'S burial record from Free Reg;
High Littleton Holy Trinity 162 04 Apr 1821 Ann HOOK Age 60 Abode Paulton
As you can see she was still Ann HOOK and had not married
Kezia's baptism had Martha's parents as Thomas, and Ann HOOK not Broadrib would you have told a methodist minister you were a "base" child? But they were more open when they had John baptised in 1831 when Martha's parents are clearly given as Thomas Broadrib and Anne Hook
If you contact me through my web site I will send you a report from John Hook down. It is too long to pm but it makes interesting reading and will save you a lot of time and show all Jacob's children and how we think Matilda fits in you and Ray are quite closely related in FH terms :)
William Parfitt was buried Paulton 22 Apr 1849 he was 45
' :)' H
-
Thanks H
I have just done as you suggested Iwas puzzled why i could not find a marriage for Thomas Boadrib
Ken
-
:) will sort something out in the morning Ken
-
thats lovely, certainly did not expect it tonight....... go to Bed !!
K
-
Trees, thanks for that, think I am back up to date now (if that is ever possible with Carters).
Ken, from the High Littleton website:
57. Ann HOOK had a bastard child by Thomas BRODRIBB c.1793/4.
[Note: Overseers' Accounts record on 14 Sep 1793 5/- paid to Ann HOOK in sickness. There were several similar payments around that time together with payments of 2/- to Hannah DANDO for looking after Ann and 9/0½ for a bed case and a sheet. Vestry Minutes of 15 Oct 1793 agreed to allow Anne HOOK 2/3 p.w. for her present support, which was paid for 27 weeks and 2/3 p.w. for Hannah DANDO for looking after Ann, which was paid for 4 weeks.
Martha dau. of Ann HOOK, a pauper, bapt. at High Littleton 23 Mar 1794.
Ann had had previous bastard children in 1784 and 1788 and went on to have more in 1796 and 1802.
Jacob CARTER bach. otp married Martha HOOK spin. otp by banns at Paulton 27 Feb 1814.
Many years later they had a child, the baptism entry for which revealed the name of Martha's father: John (born 5 Nov 1830) son of Jacob CARTER, miner, Paulton, & Martha dau. of Thomas BROADRIB & Anne HOOK, bapt. at
Midsomer Norton Wesleyan Methodist Church 3 Apr 1831.
Ann HOOK went to live with her daughter Martha CARTER at Paulton Basin in Feb 1821 and died there 2 months later.]
HIGH LITTLETON BASTARDS 1600-1850 & INDEXES.
Ken, There is lot more on the website of the payments to Ann Hook and apprenticeships the various children undertook, along with marriages, etc. of the children.
Ray
-
Thanks Rae and H
Rain water keeps getting at our broadband link and it was out of action for a while hence the delay replying... I am sorry.
These detailed overseers accounts make fascinating reading and I am so greatful to you for sharing them.
best regards
dochines
-
hello and welcome to Rootes chat
Your George married first Hester James 22 Mar 1842 in Paulton SOMERSET
27 Mar 1842
George CARTER full age Bachelor Collier Paulton John CARTER Collier
Hester JAMES full age Spinster Paulton Thomas JAMES Collier
WIts: Thomas CARTER Hester CHIVERS
she was said to be born about 1820 in Paulton on the 1851 census HO107/1939 fo118 p18 and on the 1861 census too RG 9/4003 fo 25 p17 where did you get the information of her birth in Glamorgan?
George and Hester had 4 children all in Paulton before Hester died in Bedwellty Q2 1863 Bedwelty 11a 69 ( she is then Esther)
George then married Selina COBB Q3 1863
Carter George Bristol 6a 51
Cobb Selina Bristol 6a 51
George and Selina had 5 children all in Bedwellty
George was baptised 22 June 1818 Paulton son of John(1788 app) and Betty HEAl he was one of 10 children John and Betty married 24 Oct 1809 Paulton
Hope that starts you off
Trees
I would be interested in knowing the name of the farthere and mother of Selina as my family are the cobb family from publow with family in pensford Stanton drew
-
there is also a Tryphina Cobb who moved to Bedwel marring a Thomas Carpiniter
-
Tryphena was a sister to Selina. Tryphena born 1834 Somerset, Selina born 1835. The parents of Selina were:
James Cobb born 1806 - 1864 & Hester Wyatt 1806 - 1878 married 1828 Publow
James Cobb 1806 parents: James Cobb 1773 - 1837 (Publow) & Ann Anning 1776 - ? (married 1791)
James Cobb 1773 parents: James Cobb 1735 - 1816 & Mary Windwill 1753 - ? (married 1773)
Ray
-
James and Mary are my 6x g g parents I have the compleat ( I thought) line of cobb,s from the distritct I have a lot of pdf files from high litelton and other info if you are interested Ray ...... it seems that Tryphena and her hubby foweled Selina to wales im thinking it was because the mines were getting worked out and the pensford mine had not been dug ( 3 of my grand farthers worked in pensford pit ) as did some other of my relations there is another Selena that went to work in Bath and marred there
Gary
-
Hi Gary. My line are through the Carters and not the George Carter who married Selina. The Carters of Paulton are pretty infamous and anyone who has line through the Carters of Paulton had to research all of them to find their particular line. You are correct in saying that people (miners & others) left that area of Somerset because of the better prospects of work in the Welsh valleys. I only live about 10 miles from where Selina & George lived when the moved to Wales.
You might find these links interesting:
Cwm: this is the area where Selina & George lived, Hall street is about 1 mile north of Cwm: http://www.cwmcommunitycare.org.uk/home/4583288474
There is a section on the Waunlwyd & Victoria Collieries (under "coal mining") where it is likely George & sons worked (George is shown as an Iron Miner on one census).
Welsh Coal Mines: an interesting web site where you can find out about the pits in the area & Wales generally: http://www.welshcoalmines.co.uk/
Ray
-
. The Carters of Paulton are pretty infamous and anyone who has line through the Carters of Paulton had to research all of them to find their particular line.
;D ;D ;D ;D how right you are Ray they are still giving a few headaches as are the BULLs right now
Why were they all called George ?! ****
-
Hi Trees
Quite a while since had any dealings with the Carters, but they keep coming up!
-
. The Carters of Paulton are pretty infamous and anyone who has line through the Carters of Paulton had to research all of them to find their particular line.
;D ;D ;D ;D how right you are Ray they are still giving a few headaches as are the BULLs right now
Why were they all called George ?! ****
Nerley as bad as the Cobb family in Pensford and Publow with there James lol