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Research in Other Countries => United States of America => US Lookup Requests => Topic started by: RonPrice on Tuesday 18 August 09 13:21 BST (UK)
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Looking for a Fred Price born circa 1895 in Merthyr Tydfil
Moderator comment: moved to USA - see reply #16 for details of immigration and marriage details that are needed before we can get back to Wales! Thanks
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Hello Ron
Welcome to Rootschat! :)
Do you know anything more about Fred - like his parents' names? There are at least four to choose from in 1901 ...
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Thanks for your prompt response, Arranroots.-Ron
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My father's name was Frederick James Price and he was born, as far as I know, in June of 1895. I do not know the names of his parents, although I believe they owned a pub in Merthyr. He came to Canada in the first decades of the 20th century, although he probably started out in the US.-Ron Price, Tasmania
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Hello again
The most likely is the one with a widowed mother and sister in Merthyr itself, I think.
Reference: RG13 Piece 5024 Folio 174 Page 6
Margaret A PRICE Head widow 29 – Glamorgan Dowlais
Ethel P PRICE dau 7 – do Merthyr
Frederick PRICE son 4 – do do
G JENKINS boarder U 20 – grocer’s assistant – Cardigan Cardigan
Jane DAVIES boarder U 22 – draper’s assistant – Carmarthen Carmarthen
Address: 48 Railway Tce, Pontmorlais, Merthyr, Glamorgan
His birth seems to have been registered in the September quarter, and this certificate would give you his parents' names and father's occupation.
Birth
Sep Q 1895
Price Frederick James Abergavenny 11a 59
A ;)
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That was fast, Arranroots. I've been at half a dozen geneology sites and had no luck...you've got me closer to my father in ten minutes. I'll have to join this site---after I talk to my wife.-Ron Price, with appreciation from Tasmania
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My pleasure, Ron.
I do hope your wife lets you join in with us - we do have fun here!
;D
I had a quick look to see whether I could identify a likely marriage for Fred's parents but I'm afraid you will need to buy his birth certificate in order to be sure.
Do you have any other information about him - have you looked for him in 1911 for example, or are there any family stories that might help?
Let us know if you have, or once you get the certificate and we'll try to do some more.
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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I'll get back to you, Arranroots, after chatting to my wife who is away right now and we make decisions on money together.-Ron
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Whyif he was born in merthyr -would his birth be registered in Abergavenny????
Doesn't seem quite right to me?
Suz
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margaret A Price (widowed mother of Fred Price age 4 in 1901) married Thomas Watkins (a collier)
they didn't keep a pub in 1911 -bt Fred was age 13 stepson and a butcher)
then there is this - fred's age way out - but he is staying in a pub!!!!
1901
Adam & Eve Inn
Merthyr
John Walters head M 74 Plaster Both
Ann wife 66 both
Robert son U 41 Both
Ann Jenkins daughter W 32 English
FREDERICK J PRICE grandson 10 English
Annie K price granddaughter 8 English
Mary jane kane servant u 18
all b merthyr
RG13 5025 69 6
Do you have Your parents marriage cert - that should at least give Fred's father's name and occupation
Suz
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Thanks, Suz....no marriage certificate with the information you mention. I wrote an essay which you might enjoy--or others here--in relation to the Welsh and their letters and some personal perspectives in terms of the religion my father belonged to and that I joined many years ago. I leave this with you. It won't help with the search but it may be of broader relevance.-thanking you again.-Ron Price, Tasmania
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MIGRANTS
I want to add this short essay as a sort of addendum to my comments on letter writing, my letter writing and the letter writing of pioneer-travellers because it provides some historical context particularly for me as a person with Welsh ancestry and it seems particularly relevant to my autobiography. I am indebted in my writing of this short essay which follows to a Bill Jones and his article Writing Back: Welsh Emigrants and their Correspondence in the Nineteenth Century, North American Journal of Welsh Studies, Vol. 5, No.1, Winter 2005.
Eric Richards has remarked in relation to British and Irish people who moved to Australia in the nineteenth century that migrants were “more likely to reflect on their condition and their lives than those who stayed at home.” I’m not sure if pioneer-travellers in the Baha’i community did more reflecting on their condition and lives than those who stayed at home, but there is no question I did a sizeable amount of reflecting and I documented a portion of it in my letters, and after about 1995, in my emails. I am also inclined to think that, as the decades advance and as collections of the letters and emails of pioneer-travellers take form, they will reflect Eric Richards’ comment.
As is true of most European peoples whose histories took on an international dimension as result of nineteenth-century migrations, that emigrant letters became the largest and arguably the most important source for the mentalities, activities and attitudes of ordinary migrants. Commentators have long emphasised the importance of emigrant letters in illuminating the human and personal aspects of the experience of migration.
Just at the time when the collections of Welsh migrant letters were first being published in the 1960s, my first letters as a Baha’i pioneer in Canada—a pioneer with a Welsh ancestry--were being written and collected. A continuity of little to no significnace to the outside world or even within the Baha’i community at the time was taking place. Perhaps, in the long run it would be a continuity with some significance. Time would tell.
Alan Conway’s collection, published in 1961, The Welsh in America: Letters from the Immigrants appeared just as my own collection was taking in its first letter. By the time H. S. Chapman’s article about letters from Welsh migrants “From Llanfair to Fairhaven,” in Transactions of the Anglesey Antiquarian Society and Field Club and Letters from America: Captain David Evans of Talsarnau, my own collection of letters were beginning to assume a substantial body of material for future archivists and historians, writers and analysts. I belonged to a religion within which the letter had assumed more than an insignificant proportion and those mysterious dispensations of Providence would determine whether my letters and those of other international pioneers would take on any significance. As a non-betting man I would say they will.
This brief analysis can not do justice to the many dimensions that collections of letters from Baha’i international pioneers embrace, although I hope what I write here contributes in a small way by conveying something of the diversity and complexity of the subject. I am only discussing somewhat impressionistically a few of the functions of the letters of pioneers and the relationships between them and certain aspects of the process of pioneering. I also want to discuss certain features of the letters as texts, examine some of their contexts and subtexts, and try to explain some of the complex ways in which this correspondence came into existence. My remarks here are limited, though, for this is a short essay and deals with its subject in a general and personal way making no attempt to be comprehensive and well-researched. I seek to shed light on some of the experiential aspects of emigrant letter writing and pioneer email writing and receiving in the period: 1971-2021, the period in which I was myself an international pioneer.
A collection of letters like my own are so unlike any of the nineteenth century collections from European or United Kingdom migrants to the colonies, the new world, any world outside of the Eurocentric world migrants had been born in. Their letters, their history, production and reception, intersected with, contributed to and were shaped by key contemporaneous developments in that part of the nineteenth century in which these letters were written. These included the conspicuous increase in literacy, the emergence of mass print culture and formal state-based education, the expansion of the postal service and of reading and letter-writing in general, the social and cultural practices of the time together with the growth of instructional literature devoted to a range of cultural and educational pursuits. -Ron Price, Tasmania
------NO MORE ROOM FOR THIS ESSAY---MORE IF DESIRED BY READERS-------
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There is the following marriage in Ontario, Canada. Is this your parents marriage Ron?
Frederick James Price
Age: 28
Residence when married: Hamilton, Ontario
Place of birth: Merthyr Tydfil
Occupation: Soldier
Religion: Presbyterian
Father: Fred'k F. Price
Mother: Annie Kate Walters
Emma Firth Spiers
Age: 23
Residence when married: Hamilton, Ontario
Place of birth: Philadelphia, Penn.
Religion: Presbyterian
Father: D. M. Spiers
Mother: Ada Rhodes
Date of Marriage: June 10, 1918
Hamilton, Ontario
Reg. No. 020493
Karen
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There is the following arrival in New York aboard the Mauretania on August 7, 1908 departing from Liverpool, England.
Frederick James Price
Age: 18
Place of birth: Merthyr Tydfil, Wales
Next of kin: Uncle, Robert Walters, Adam & Eve Inn, Merthyr Tydfil
Destination: Des Moines, Iowa
K
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Thanks, Karen M. You are certainly getting warm-- with both those chaps. But I know, or at least as far as my knowledge is exact, that my father was born in 1895. He died at the age of 70 or, to be more specific, at the age of 69 & 10/12ths in May of 1965 in Dundas Ontario. So I'm still on the march of search and I appreciate your efforts here, Karen M.
After several years of hunting at several sites, I can honestly say that you have come closer than anyone in the feedback a I have received at several of these geneology sites. You are to be commended for your efforts---and so..."I commend you." -Ron Price, Tasmania, Australia.
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Hi Ron
I think you need to tell us what information you do have about your father.
Do you have him on any census in the USA or Canada?
What about obtaining his marriage details - that seems to be essential now if you want to go back further. When and where did he marry?
We could go on guessing at possibilities, but that could be a waste of time as with a "popular" name like PRICE in Wales there are just too many possibilities to be certain.
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Thanks, Arranroots. I have not found any Frederick James Price born in Wales somewhere between 1893 and 1895 on any census in the USA, Canada, Wales or the UK. As I have indicated, I do not know what when he emigrated from Wales; I also do not know whether he went to the USA or Canada in the first instance, although I suspect it was to the USA.
I have searched in several census tables and think I need to do it again. I found the search in these tables and lists somewhat cumbersome to put the experience of the process mildly.
He was married in Burlington Ontario on 23 August 1943 to a Lillian Annie Cornfield, my mother, born in Hamilton. He was 48 and she was 39 and born in Hamilton in 1904, as far as I know. It was my father's 2nd marriage and I know nothing of his 1st marriage except that he had 3 children, two of whom were boys killed in action in 1942(circa). Their names were David Miller, age 19 and James V. age 18 to 20(circa).
As you say, with a "popular" name like PRICE in Wales, with just too many possibilities when looking at census data and lists of various sorts. I'm not sure where to go from here, but I will go back to those labyrinthine census tables when time permits--for starters. Thanks, again, Arranroots.-Ron Price, George Town, Tasmania
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I'm glad to hear you have the second marriage - I'm not familiar with these certificates, but don't they give parents' names?
Sadly, this is all too recent for your parents to appear on censuses together.
I assume you've looked at the immigration records - Karen should be able to help you with advice, as again I am out of familiar territory!
Shame you don't know about the first marriage - not even a clue about which country? If he had several children it must have been sometime between 1916 (when Fred would be 21) and roughly 1930 or the children wouldn't have been old enough to serve in WWII. Still a wide window!
What occupation did your father follow - would he appear in trade directories?
If you could find him in voters' lists in Hamilton, you might be able to trace him back from there?
Very tricky!
A ;)
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Tricky, indeed, Aaranroots. Yes, I have finally located my father's 2nd marriage certificate. His name on that certificate is 'Frederick James Price' and my mother's 'Lillian Annie Cornfield.'
I need to go back to the immigration/emigration records since my father would have left Wales sometime between 1910(age 15) and 1920(age 25) and gone most probably to the USA. I will try and consult with Karen when time permits since, like yourself, such records are also out of my familiar territory. Two years or so ago I got lost in all the lists, if I recall correctly.
Fred's first marriage was to an Emma F. Price (whose single name is unknown to me). They were 'probably married in the USA' producing 3 children: David Miller Price, James V. Price and a third child, a girl, whose name I do not know since I never met any of his children and this information came via my mother decades ago. David Miller was 19 when he was killed in action circa 1942. David V. Price was also killed in action circa age 20, circa 1942. And so it is that these two boys would have been born between, say, 1922 and 1924 when Fred would have been 27 to 29(circa).
My father had many jobs from 1920(age 25) to 1960 when he retired at age 65. My mother told me he was in the CIA or the FBi, but could not talk about his involvement in his line of work. I have written to both these organizations some 5 to 10 years ago now and they gave me no response. He was a stenographer, a cleaner,a miner and also worked in a wood yard, among his several jobs.
Yes, I could look him up on voters' lists in Hamilton, but I'm not sure what value that would be. As you say: "it's all a bit tricky." Thanks again, Aaranroots, for your very prompt efforts on my behalf. I must say, I have never had such an immediate and useful response at the 10(!!) other geneological internet sites I have tried in the last several years.-Ron in Australia
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I have been waiting to see which way this thread would go before deciding where to move it to - it's currently under Glamorgan Completed, which is wrong, so I am going to send it to USA where hopefully the locals will be able to give you enough information to trace back to Wales.
I suggest that you post additionally asking on the World War Two board about the boys, in case there are records giving next of kin information available. Please remember to keep this thread and the new one updated, so that we don't do the same work twice though!
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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I will try and keep this thread and any new ones I initiate or respond to in the weeks ahead--updated so that, as you say, we/I/you don't end up doing the same work twice.
I will also try and make an effort to ask on the World War Two board about my father's two sons in case there are records giving next of kin information available.
Thanking you again for this useful information.-Ron
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Library and Archives Canada has a database of Canadian Soldiers who died during the 2nd WW.
Daniel Miller Price is listed on there son of Fred J Price and Emma F Price of Hamilton, Ontario.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/072x/
Karen
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Excellent Karen!
Does that mean they were there on the 1911 census, by any chance? (I don't know whether you have access?)
A ;)
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Fred's first marriage was to an Emma F. Price (whose single name is unknown to me). They were 'probably married in the
Fred married Emma Speirs, I posted the marriage information earlier. They married in Hamilton, Ontario.
Karen
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Here is Fred's information from his signup in WW1 in the USA
Fred James Price
Age: 27
Address: 603 12th Street, DesMoines, Iowa
Date of Birth: June 25, 1890
Birth: Merthyr Tydfil, C. Glam., Wales
What is your trade: Stenographer
By Whom Employed: Jones Chataqua Co., Perry Iowa
Have you a wife, child, father, sister, brother dependant on you for support: Invalid sister of 20
Do you claim exemption from draft: Curviture of spine from accident in mine
Tall, medium or short: Medium
Colour of eyes: blue
Hair: Lt Brown
Karen
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Does that mean they were there on the 1911 census, by any chance? (I don't know whether you have access?)
Fred is still in the USA in 1910
Fred Price, border, age 20, coal miner
year of immigration: 1908
Douglas, Polk County, Iowa
The 1911 Canadian census is free to view at www.automatedgenealogy.com
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This is looking good; I will check this out tomorrow after going to bed and sleeping tonight.-Ron
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Hi Ron,
This looks like your mother's birth
Lillian Annie Cornfield
Date of Birth: January 6, 1904
Father: Alfred Jno Cornfield
Mother: Sarah Alice Andrews
County of Wentworth
K
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On the UK Incoming Passenger Lists there this is the following
Lillian Cornfield
Age: 30
Occupation: Stenographer
Proposed Address in the UK: Oxford Group, House Party, Oxford
Name of Ship: Empress of Australia
Port of Arrival: Southampton
Date of Arrival: June 28, 1934
Karen
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There is the following arrival in New York aboard the Mauretania on August 7, 1908 departing from Liverpool, England.
Frederick James Price
Age: 18
Place of birth: Merthyr Tydfil, Wales
Next of kin: Uncle, Robert Walters, Adam & Eve Inn, Merthyr Tydfil
Destination: Des Moines, Iowa
If this is the right guy, you can see this information for free on www.ellisisland.org. If you take a look at the manifest (you have to click on "Next" to see the first page he's on), there are manifest markings indicating that he applied for naturalization and his immigration information was verified in 1939. You can see details about manifest markings here: http://www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/Manifests/occ/
One thing to keep in mind regarding the WWI Draft Registration Card - all men of a certain age were required to fill these out, so it doesn't necessarily mean he served in the US military. It looks like he signed up to serve in Canada on 3 Oct. 1917. The attestation paper for Canadian Over-Seas Expedition Force has the following - Fred James Price, 608 12th St., Des Moines, Iowa, born Wales (Merthyr Tydfil is handwritten in) on 25 Jun. 1890, next of kin - sister Gertrude Price, 108 Reland (?) Street, Newport, England, occupation -stenographer, not married, 5' 6 1/2 " tall, medium complexion, blue eyes, brown hair, mark on palm of right hand, scar above right buttock, denomination - C. of Christ
I don't think this one was listed before -
Border crossing from Canada at Port Huron, Michigan, 24 Aug. 1913
Price, Fred James, age 23, male, single, coal miner, able to read & write, nationality - Wales, last permanent residence - Montreal, Canada, nearest relative - sister Annie Price, Newport, England, final destination - Mystic, Iowa, in possession of $65, previously in US in Mystic from 1909 to 1913, last departed US in Feb. 1913, going to join friend William James in Mystic, 5'8" tall, ruddy complexion, brown hair, blue eyes, born Merthyr Tydfil, Wales, arrived in Montreal on GTR Laurentia on 23 Jun. 1913
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The census that Suzard posted earlier had a sister Annie of the right age - so I am persuaded, lol!
:)
Shelly - that tells us everything except his inside leg measurement - how wonderful!
Karen - who is he with in 1910? Does the census tell us his parents' origins in 1910 or was that just later ones?
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In 1910, he's a boarder living with a family named Brown in Douglas, Polk Co., Iowa. Fred is age 20, single, listed as born England & parents born England (if the head of the family gave the info, they may not have known the difference between England & Wales), immigrated 1908, alien, able to read & write, not attending school, coal miner
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The census that Suzard posted earlier had a sister Annie of the right age - so I am persuaded, lol!
:)
Fred was on 1891 census too
1891
17 Wool St
Merthyr Tydfil
Frederick Price Head M 22 Painter Cardiff glam Both English/Welsh spoken
Annie wife 23 Merthyr Tydfil English spoken
Frederick J son 9 mths Merthyr Tydfil
RG12 4437 29 10
there is a marriage freeBMD
Dec qtr 1889
merthyr tydfil
on same page
Annie Walters
Frederick Price
11a 933
and a death reg
Frederick Price
age 28
Sept qtr 1897
Merthyr Tydfil
11a 354
I wonder if Ann jenkins widow age 32 (on 1901 census) is Frederick's mother - who was widowed -remarried to Mr Jenkins and widowed again???
Suz
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I just woke up, came to do my emails and "Bob's your uncle!" You folks here are incredible. If your efficiency gets out to all the world you will be inundated by the masses. People like me will flock to your site. On a quick scan of these incoming messages this morning on this thread let me say that: (a) the birth date and place of my mother is spot on and (b) all the rest of the items are "a bit iffy" or "a bit tricky," as Aaranroots puts it succinctly on occasion. I will have to get back here after I have: (i) had my morning ablutions and (b) my breakfast. "Cheerio, for now," as my father used to say before he died in 1965 when I was 21 and hardly knew him.-Ron from Downunder in the Antipodes as Australia and New Zeland are sometimes called.
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If the census of 1891 indicated that "Frederick J son 9 mths Merthyr Tydfil" then this chap can't be my father who was born in 1895 in Merthyr Tydfil or perhaps Cardiff. But he was not born before 1895.
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As far as "Ann Jenkins widow age 32 (on 1901 census) being Frederick's mother - who was widowed -remarried to Mr Jenkins and widowed again" as you indicated....that hypoethesis is entired possible---I would not rule it out....but it still leaves me in the dark as far as when my father left Wales and arrived in the USA or Canada.
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To avoid duplication of effort, please note that Ron has another thread here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,415235.0/topicseen.html
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Apologies, Arranroots. I'll slowly find my way around here and try to avoid this duplication of effort. I appreciate your patience.-Ron