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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Westmorland => Topic started by: Janeada on Sunday 16 August 09 10:51 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I'm looking for the baptism of Betty or Elizabeth Hayton c1766 (my 3x gt. grandmother) and getting throughly confused ??? On the two census returns that exist for Betty (1851 & 1861) she says she was born at "Hutton, Westmorland". I take this to be either Old Hutton or New Hutton which were both townships within the parish of Kendal. What I can't fathom is whether or not these townships had their own churches around the mid 18th century or would people who lived their have to use Kendal parish church? I'm hoping someone knows the area better than I do and can help me.
On the IGI here is a baptism for a Betty Hayton at Kendal in 1771 it is a bit later than I would have liked but still possible. The IGI only start their coverage of Old Hutton and New Hutton in 1813. So I am a little wary in case there are registers at either Old Hutton or New Hutton which the IGI do not have.
Getting a bit desperate, ::)
Janeada
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There is Hutton Roof too. Have a look at www.genuki.org.uk as that should show which churches existed when and what the coverage is on the IGI. According to Phillimore New Hutton coverage is only 1813 to 1875 and Old Hutton is 1813 to 1862, so both starting 1813 as you say. Of course the churches were established well before that (1741 and 1685) so you need to look at the original registers which are at Kendal. Or you can get them on film to search at your nearest LDS FH centre - listed on familysearch and worldwide. If you are near London the Society of Geneaolgists will probably have them too.
Andrea
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Hi,
Thank you sillgen. The LDS don't have anything for Old and New Hutton before 1813 I have checked the library catalogue which is why I wondered if they were both chapels of ease and their respective baptisms etc being recorded in Kendal registers. Yet a little booklet I bought from Cumbria Archive seems to suggest that the registers start from 1741 for New Hutton and 1686 for Old Hutton - hence my confusion! Hutton Roof registers start 1813 whichever source you look at so that is probably not the one I want.
I suppose the easy way out of this is to ask the Archive people to do the research for me but that will be very expensive given the hourly fee they charge.
Janeada
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Hi
Your profile does not give any indication of where you live but ordering the film via an LDS centre is really worthwile if you can do it. Are you sure they do not have a film of the whole register? That is a pest. They often do even though the index coverage is not for all of it. You see all the entries - deaths as well - and can build up a real picture of the family. It might be worth asking at your nearest one just in case. Hutton Roof registers start at 1799, though again IGI coverage is only from 1813, but in any case if she was born there then she would have been taken to the nearest church for baptism anyway.
Who did she marry? Does that entry hold any clues in the way of witnesses?
Andrea
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Hi,
If your booklet is 'Cumbrian Ancestors' (3rd edition) it is the resource most commonly used locally, albeit printed 10 years ago.
At the time you are researching, New Hutton and Old Hutton were 2 of the 14 chapelries/townships in the Parish of Kendal which had their own churches/chapels.
Your are correct in your earlier message that the baptisms were recorded in the registers of Holy Trinity, Kendal. This is where the IGI causes confuson in that the entries from all 14 chapels appear as 'Kendal' and it does not differentiate. Unfortunately there is no alternative to checking the original Parish Records to confirm or not.
To confuse matters further, the IGI records are taken from the BTs not the PRs, and so any errors and omissions are compounded.
You will probably find that KRO will undertake a free search as long as it does not take more than 10 minutes. If you are a member of Cumbria FHS you may find someone to help or there will be other researchers who charge less than £27 / hour.
Good Luck
Chris
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Hi,
Thank you Sillgen and ChrisWest for all the helpful comments.
Sillgen, I was going to ask at the local LDS family history centre. The nearest one to me is just outside Nottingham but they are closed until the beginning of September. It can be very frustrating if you order the "wrong" film so I was just trying to make sure where I should be looking. Elizabeth Hayton married Edward Fisher 11 August 1798 at the parish church in Kendal. They lived in Kendal and produced seven children, Thomas, Jonathan, Dorothy, Robert, Edward, Barbary and Elizabeth. All of those names appear in the two previous generations of the Fisher family so there isn't really a clue in the names. The 1771 baptism I found was a child of Miles and Elizabeth Hayton so if this was my Elizabeth/Betty then she didn't use her father's name for one of her children, nor do any of her grandchildren so far as I know have the name Miles.
ChrisWest, my booklet is "Cumbrian Ancestors" published in 1988 and very useful it has been over the years. I was guessing when I said that the baptisms might be in Kendal parish registers. This happens at Ulverston, Lancashire too where there were several small chapels of ease most of which later became parish churches in their own right. It can make finding the register you need a bit of a puzzle.
Thank you once again,
Janeada
P.S. One of my Fisher Family married a William Sill at Kendal (1866) I think he was born at Blackburn c1847. Is he anything to do with your tree Sillgen?
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Not long until September. I used to use the local LDS centre every week. The London one is good too. My known Sill family are mainly Yorkshire and Durham but in fact after over 20 years of searching I have not got a positive baptism for Francis Sill born c1790 so they could be from anywhere. I just note all the ones I come across and hope. If I could only join him up I could go back years in many directions!
Andrea
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You have my sympathy Sillgen. I think just about every family historian who has worked their way back through the 19th century has at least one like that.
I've sent an e-mail to Kendal Archive asking them to have a look at the 1771 baptism of Betty Hayton for me. Hopefully it will show a place of abode.
Janeada
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Hi,
After reading this topic, I'm just wondering if Andrea gets commission from LDS!!
With all due respect, to any unexperienced genealogist surfing the internet it would appear that you are suggesting that the LDS is the prime and best source of information. Admittedly, the IGI is an invaluable SECONDARY source which helps if you do not live within the research area, but the BEST & PRIMARY source has to be the Parish Registers.
According to the South Westmorland Family History website, there are hundreds of baptisms missing from the IGI for Kendal Parish, so ordering a film which may contain errors and omissions could well be a waste of money.
You may also be interested to know that baptisms were taking place in New Hutton as early as 1729 as per Holy Trinity, Kendal PARISH REGISTERS!!
Regards
DD
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Oh dear
I am getting flack today about suggesting people use the LDS FH centres. I have spent hours in the local record offices in my time and they are the best bet obviously - if you can get there. If you can't then the LDS centres have to be a good alternative. I also sing the praises of the Society of Genealogists if people can get to London. The copies of the registers on film are a great source. Very few archives allow access to actual written registers so the films/fiche are what you will see wherever you go. In my original reply I said that Janeada should look at the original registers in Kendal. It was only as "back up" that I suggested the LDS. You imply that the films they hold are only of the IGI index. They are not. The index is a completely separate venture. They have many films of the original registers and they are well worth looking at.
Regards
Andrea
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DickieDoodle,
If I lived near to Kendal Archive then this discussion would not be taking place I would be there consulting the original documentation. Sillgen is only trying to help. Sadly like so many other people I live a long way away from the primary sources needed for my research. The LDS can be a great help in this situation. I recently had a film of a Norfolk parish register and found baptisms I know are not in the IGI. Admittedly the IGI is a very flawed secondary source which can only be used as a pointer. Definitely not to be relied upon as a sole source for research. It should always be checked against the parish registers where they exist and/or the BTs. And if there is corroborative evidence such as the census or wills so much the better.
And whilst we are discussing this sort of thing - it doesn't always pay to employ a researcher. My Fisher family tree had a big hole blown in it when I found the burial of a child aged one year. The researcher had assured me that this child's baptism was that of my 2x great grandfather which plainly was not correct. I had begged that man to look at the burial registers to see if any of the baptisms he was sending were those of children who sadly did not live long but he did not or could not I don't know which. At the time it was completely out of the question for me to go and look for myself. I eventually sorted out the mess by paying a lot of money for the Archive researchers to do some work for me. So now I like to see the parish registers for myself as much as possible.
Janeada
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As William Turner said:
'Byrdes of on kynde and color flok and flye allwayes together'.
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I suppose a quote for the research would be out of the question?!!
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Sorry DickieDoodle you have lost me. ??? You are going to have to explain what you mean. Sorry to be so thick!! ::)
Janeada
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1771, Feb 25 - Betty d/o Miles & Elizabeth Hayton of Fellside
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Hi Again,
I've had a quick look on Ancestry (library edition) and found:
1841 - Stricklandgate, Kendal
Edward Fisher 60 Joiner & Carpenter Y
Elizabeth 70 Y
Elizabeth 20 Y
presumably to go with a marriage 13 Aug 1798 - Edward Fisher & Elizabeth Hayton
but I was unable to find the entries for 1851 & 1861.
Are these the right people? and was Elizabeth still living in Kendal in 1851 & 1861?
Chris
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Hi,
Thank you DickieDoodle you beat Kendal Archive to it by about 12 hours!! I'm not sure what to think Fellside is part of Kendal town not Hutton Roof, New Hutton or Old Hutton. Although there are plenty of Elizabeths in my Fisher family there is no-one named Miles and they don't use the name Newby (I think Miles Hayton's wife was probably Elizabeth Newby before she married) as a middle name as they do with other maiden names.
The Archive have also explained the situation regarding Kendal Parish and the surrounding township churches. I will quote the relevant part of their e-mail:
There were separate parish churches at New Hutton and Old Hutton. The parish records for New Hutton begin in 1741 and the registers for Old Hutton 1793. However these two churches were 'chapelries' of Kendal Holy Trinity and the register entries were copied into the Kendal Holy Trinity registers. Usually the KHT entries for a particular year would be listed first followed by those of all the individual chapelries. Therefore up until 1813 it is quite possible for a baptism to appear in the Kendal Holy Trinity register and in the register of the chapelry.
To answer your questions ChrisWest I have three census returns for Betty Fisher. The 1841 census which you found. I have the 1851 census as a paper copy from before I had a computer and in a transcription done by the Cumbria FHS. I tried and tried to find the census on Ancestry but failed each time. Then using the transcription I tried a name from the next page and it came up. When I clicked on the arrow at the top of the page to go back to the page I wanted it jumped two pages so I think they may have a page missing. I got Betty's place of birth from the 1851 census, they were living on Stricklandgate, Kendal. Edward her husband died in 1852. In 1861 I think Betty is living with her youngest daughter Elizabeth and family at Salthouse Marsh, Dalton. Elizabeth's husband appears to have been William Wainman. Ancestry have the names and places of birth in a bit of a muddle but the image is a poor one and difficult to read. Both Ancestry and FindMyPast have mistranscribed the married surname of Betty's daughter Elizabeth. Try looking for Betty Fisher aged 96 born Ashton, Westmorland. I know there's no such place but as I said it is a poor image I had to magnify it up a lot in order to even guess what it is. I think Betty had again given her birth place as Hutton.
I sent for a death certificate (1866) for Betty and a marriage certificate (1846) for her daughter Elizabeth which will probably arrive early next week.
Janeada
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The two certificates I sent for have now arrived
Elizabeth Fisher married William Wainman at the Register Office in Kendal on the 31st August 1845. William's father was John Wainman, Wool Comber and Elizabeth's father was Edward Fisher, Joiner. The witnesses were T. F. Spencer and Frances S. Wainman. Presumably Frances Wainman was a relative of the groom but I have no idea who the Spencer person might be.
Betty Fisher died on 8th March 1866 at Salthouse Marsh, Dalton aged 100 years. She was the Widow of Edward Fisher, Joiner, Master. Cause of death: Decay of Nature, Not Certified. Elizabeth Wainman (Betty's daughter although no relationship is given) registered the death on 24th March 1866.
I don't know that this gets me any further forward in my search for Betty's baptism except that it does seem that Betty and her close relatives are consistent with the age given on the censuses. I am very unsure about the 1771 baptism but don't really know what else I can do to try to find another one that would fit better with what I already know of Betty's life. Does anyone have any more comments?
Janeada
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One possibility is that she may have been born and baptised elsewhere, but the family moved to Hutton when she was a child and this was where she grew up and though she was born.
Could it be possible that she was a widow when she married, and therefore Hayton is not her birth surname? Have you checked the original record?
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Thank you ChrisWest. The possibility that Betty was born elsewhere then brought to Hutton as an infant had occurred to me but I was hoping it would not be the case. Where would I start searching? ??? At a later date there is usually some other bit of documentation to give a clue but in the mid 18th century virtually nothing but the parish registers.
The original record of the marriage was checked but not by me. I live a long way from Kendal so most of the research into the Fisher family had to be done through a third party. However this particular marriage entry was checked by the people at the Archive and I think they would have said if Betty was a widow. I'll have a look for the paper report I had just to double check.
Janeada.
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Previous messages have talked about Old Hutton, New Hutton & Hutton Roof.
Have you considered Priest Hutton?
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ChrisWest,
Where is Priest Hutton? ???
I've never heard of it before and I can't find it in Parson & White. ??? ???
However I did find some "Huttons" in Cumberland - Hutton-in-the-Forest and Hutton End where there was (? is) a country seat Hutton Hall. These are, according to the directory about 5 miles north-north-west of Penrith. Maybe Betty just got her counties in a muddle and didn't differentiate between Westmorland and Cumberland; doing her bit to prove that women are no good at geography ::)
Janeada
P.S. I've been looking at maps since I wrote this. Hutton End is indeed NNE of Penrith but there is also Hutton almost due east of Penrith very near to Penruddock and there is another Hutton Roof (Grid: 3734) which was in Cumberland but is now in Cumbria as well as the Hutton Roof near Kendal.
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Priest Hutton, known as Hutton, is just south of Burton-in-Kendal, on the border of Westmorland and Lancashire. Nearest Parishes are Burton-in-Kendal and Warton, but still no IGI entries.
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Thank you ChrisWest.
I've found Priest Hutton on the map. It is and always was, I think, in Lancashire which is why it doesn't feature in Parson & White and probably why the people at Kendal Archive didn't mention it either. The present church is shared between Priest Hutton and Borwick but it looks as though the whole area was once in the parish of Warton.
Janeada
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Hi,
As many of you will know FindMyPast have recently added Westmorland to their 1851 census collection. I tried looking up my Edward and Betty Fisher but could only get the transcription. The image appears to be having teething troubles and refused to download.
Betty Fisher was Betty Hayton before her marriage and FindMyPast have interpreted her birthplace as "Hetton" Westmorland. I don't think there is any such place but there is a Helton between Kendal and Penrith and the IGI has a baptism for Elizabeth Hayton at Askham (which will be the parish) 16 November 1775 the daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth. This would make her nearly ten years younger than she said she was. Does anyone have access to Askham Registers and would they be kind enough to do a quick look-up for me please?
Janeada
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Have found a copy (transcription) of Askham PR on-line. Unfortunately it wasn't very helpful giving no more information about the baptism of Elizabeth Hayton than the IGI entry.
The name Hayton is mentioned several times in the parish register:
John Hayton of Shap married Mary Holme o.t.P. 16 April 1702
William Hayton married Elizabeth Hoggart in 1775. I didn't see a baptism but their daughter Ann was buried in 1793 aged 14 years; her father was described as Wm Hayton of Hilton, Carpenter.
There was also a John Hayton, Weaver at Helton. He married Agnes Hill in 1797 and they had at least two children, Mary in 1797 and John in 1803. Agnes Hayton aged 34 and John Hayton aged 10 days were buried four days apart in April 1803.
John Hayton, widower, then married Ann Mounsey in July 1803.