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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Monmouthshire => Wales => Monmouthshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Brentor boy on Friday 14 August 09 08:23 BST (UK)
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Sarah Richards married Robert Smith in Llanharran in 1847. She is shown as a servant , of Llanharran Village, daughter of Nicholas Richards, collier.
In 1851 her age is given as 25, her birthplace as Bedwellty. These details are repeated (age adjusted) at each subsequent census.
I am looking for any record of Sarah or Richard prior to 1847. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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not aware of a Llanharran in Monmouthshire, but there is one in Glamorgan
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/Llanharan/
and a possible family in 1841
Bryn Cae Vach, Llanharran HO107/1416/10 folio 7 pg 8
Nicholas Richards 46 collier
Mary 43
David 20
Catherine 12
/
Nicholas 25 collier
all born in county
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just checking Nicholas in later census entries and in 1861, he's in Peterstone super montem, right next to Robert & Sarah Smith with 3 daughters, Mary Ann, Sarah & Hannah. RG9/4074 folio 55 pg 2
Is that your Robert & Sarah?
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In each census from 1851-81 my Robert and Sarah are shown as living in Pantywaun, Gelligaer, so the record you have found must relate to another couple. However the information you have provided has caused me to consider that I may have the wrong Marriage certificate as the details so closely match the census records you have quoted.
The first traced child of my Robert and Sarah was born in Pantywaun in January 1847 - her mother's maiden name is shown as Richards. It did strike me as a little unusual for the couple to marry in Llanharran in December 1847 and then return to live in Pantywaun, particularly as from census records Llanharran was the birthplace of neither of them, but as Free BMD shows no other Robert Smith/ Sarah Richards marriage in Wales 1843/50, I was left with no other obvious alternative.
It seems I must now consider the possibility that they did not marry. If you are able to suggest any other explanation, please let me know.
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How is the mother's name given on the birth certificate? Is it Smith formerly Richards? Or is there a late something in there as well?
There's a possible registration
Robert Smith dec qtr 1846 Merthyr Tydfil vol 26 pg 629 with a Sarah Rosser on the same page
not that there's a likely marriage of a Sarah Richards to a Rosser, but a possible family in Bedwelty in 1841
Cwmmaes....(?) Ishlawrcoed HO107/750/6 folio 31 pg 23
David Rosser 55 collier
Eliza 18
Sarah 15
Margaret 12
Ebenezer 9
Louisa 6
all born in county apart from David
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The parents of Jane, their first(?) born, are shown as Robert Smith and Sarah Smith formerly Richards. Sarah was the informant (with a mark).
It is possible that either Robert or Sarah were in an undissolved marriage at the time of Jane's birth and thus unable to marry but ,as neither of them was more than 21, this seems unlikely. Perhaps I need to obtain the birth certificate of a later child to check on the maiden name Sarah gave at that time.
Census records suggest that Robert was born in Gelligaer circa 1827/8. Their children, as extracted from census records and matched to BMD index, appear to have been:- Jane 1847, Mary Ann 1849, (Morgan 1850?),Jennet 1853, (Gwenllian 1853?), Joseph 1855, Henry 1857, David 1860, Ann 1862, Sarah 1864/5.
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think that's a good idea just in case. Certainly not much showing up in the mean time. Though I did wonder about this birth record from IGI batch C095781
Robert Smith son of Joseph & Jennette born 26/12/1827 Penuel Particular Baptist, Rhymney Iron Works
Also a brother Henry born 2/11/1825 in the same batch
given that the names are used for their children. Pantywaun had a Baptist Church.
http://www.alangeorge.co.uk/pantywaun.htm
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The Smith family of Rhymney certainly looks worth a closer look. I shall try and trace them through the census and see where that may (or may not) lead.
Incidentally Robert, who was an iron miner (why am I not surprised?) was also, at one time, licensee of "The Miners' Arms" in Pantywaun. Not sure how that would square if he was a Baptist.
The search goes on. Thanks for suggesting further avenues to explore.
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Hi Osprey,
Thought you might be interested to know that I have now received a copy birth certificate of later child of Robert and Sarah Smith. Mother's former name shown as ROSSER! Now for the marriage certifcate which will hopefully put me back on track.
Many thanks for your helpful input. Not too sure how far I would have progressed without it.
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If the marriage cert shows her father as David, the family from Ishlawrcoed above would look a good match. But I'm struggling to David after that apart from a possible death registration in march qtr 1848.
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I now have the marriage cert.
Married Gelligaer Parish Church, after banns, 9 Nov 1846.
Robert Smith , of full age, s/o George Smith, Miner
Sarah Rosser, of full age, d/o David Rosser, Collier.
Both of Pantywain
Witnesses:- George Jones, Elizabeth Rosser.
All made mark.
It looks like your suggestion of the Sarah/David entry for Ischlawrcoed is correct. I just hope the name of Robert's father is right! I have had two false leads already in trying to sort out this family. Perhaps it's fortunate I am looking for Smith in Wales and not in England.
On the marriage certificate of their daughter Jane, her father's name is shown as Thomas Smith, and then her birth certificate shows her mother's maiden name as Richards.
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Robert seems to be well hidden in 1841. There is a George Smith in Gelligaer, but he's an engineer and I think his marriage is 1827. There's a George Smith who's a miner in Trevethin, Monmouthshire, but no Robert with him.
Perhaps his father died before 1841 and his mother remarried, so he's hidden under another surname.
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Thanks Osprey, looks as if I am in for some serious digging. I had so hoped that Robert's father would have been called Joseph!
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Hi Osprey,
Hope you will pick this up, and that you do not mind me troubling you again.
Working from some additional information I have been given by another interested party, I want to check out a possible hypothesis.
It now seems possible that Robert Smith was the son of Joseph and Jennette of Rhymney and that after the death of Joseph, Jennette married George Jones. If this happened whilst Robert was still quite young, he might have grown up to regard George as his father and, when asked at his wedding for his father's name gave "George" with the vicar adding "Smith", making an incorrect assumption. A George Jones was a witness to his marriage.
Can you find any record of George and Jennette Jones in Pantywaun in 1841? Robert would have been about 14 at that time and could still have been living at home, possibly under the name of Jones.
From somewhere I have a note of a Joseph Smith baptised Merthyr Tydfil 3 Jan 1802 s/o Henry and Agnes. Unfortunately I have not noted the source because it did not appear relevant. If I am right in my theory and Robert's father was Joseph, whose first son was called Henry, it might now be very important. Are you able to re-connect me to the source?
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Theory is looking good so far!
marriage
George Jones and Juan (?) Smith 16/1/1832 Gelligaer
1841 Pant a wain, Gellygare HO107/1414/7 folio 25 pg 20
George Jones 30 smith
Jennet 30
Ann 4
Hannah 1
Henry 10 miner
Robert 10 miner
Mary Price 20 female servant
all born in county apart from George & Mary & eunmerated in that order so the 2 boys out of age order.
1851 Pantywaun, Gelligaer HO107/2457 folio 196 pg 46
George Jones head mar 45 victualler b. Carms, Llangunnor
Jennet wife 45 b. Glam, Llanwonno
Ann dau 14
Hannah dau 11
Mary dau 8
John son 5
Gwenllian dau 1
all born Gelligaer except where stated
Sorry, I can't help with the baptism for Joseph, the IGI batch for the parish church Merthyr Tydfil starts in 1820. Have found his marriage though - 19/7/1824 in Gelligaer to Jennet Llewellyn.
;)
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Many , many, thanks Osprey. That ties in with everything I already know about this family and is, I think, as conclusive as I am going to get. Only the ages in 1841 are a bit out, but that is not unusual and certainly something I can live with.
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I had a little look around and I think the enumerator may have been a bit too keen with his rounding down. It was meant to be that those over the age of 15 had their age rounded down to the nearest 5. This one seems to have gone a stage further and rounded down those over 10. This isn't the only household with 2 10 year olds in it and I've just spotted one with 3, but no-one aged 11-14 that I noticed at a quick glance.
::)
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Thanks for adding substance to my assumption.
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Dear Brentor Boy, I thought that we might be able to swap some info as my g-g- grandmother was Jennette Ashton, nee Smith(9-6-1851), daughter of Robert Smith (26-12-1827) & Sarah Smith nee Rosser. I have a scanned photo of Jennette which I could email you if you were interested but I have found it difficult to access many photos in spite of the excellent 'Old Merthyr' website. Would you be interested in swapping f. trees or sharing........... H.
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Hi H,
I'd love to see a picture of Jennette - actually she is in my wife's tree - and I'd be happy to share what I have with you. (probably best via PM)
I guess you will have seen the Pantywaun site. Robert Smith at one time ran The Miners Arms and at the same time his mother, Jennett Llewellyn/Smith/Jones, ran The Royal Arms, and there's a picture of that.