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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: Janet Jarvey on Friday 17 July 09 18:52 BST (UK)
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Dear all, I wonder if anyone has access to Pettigrew & Oulton's Dublin Almanac & General Register of Ireland for 1845 or another directory of a later date? I'm wondering if David Leahy, Solicitor, South Frederick Street, Dublin is listed. For the record I am researching the Leahy family of South Hill in Killarney, Co Kerry. David was the fifth child, born circa 1818. Thanks.
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I've had a look through the South Fredrick Street listing in Thom's of 1848 - no sign of a solicitor with the surname Leahy, quite a few solicitors on the street though.
I will search a bit more and let you know if I find anything.
Shane
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Slaters of 1846 seems to have him listed
David Leahy, attorney 41 North George great st, & Limerick
http://www.failteromhat.com/slater/0277.pdf
also in Thom's of 1848 at the same address (all solicitors)
Richard J. Theodore Orpen,
James Sweeny,
Colburn & Bennet (& Cork)
David Leahy (& Killarney)
William Dean (& Cork)
Edward Doherty (& Bandon)
John Hamilton Reid
In 1863 the building is still a solicitors office - all have the surname Orpen.
Shane
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Dear Shane
Thanks for taking the time and trouble to check your documents for a complete stranger. Very much appreciated, and very helpful. Go raibh maith agaibh.
Janet
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no problem ;)
some more Leahy entries from the 1846 Slater's for you... the location is South-hill, Kilarney, which you mentioned in your post.
In the Nobility, Gentry & Clergy section
John Leahy, Esq. South hill
see : http://www.failteromhat.com/slater/0079.pdf
see 1st col on page 247, near to the end
that may be him listed under Agents with his business address..and also in the Corn Merchants and Millers sections on the next page as (John & Richard Leahy)
see : http://www.failteromhat.com/slater/0080.pdf
Shane
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Once again my thanks Shane. John Leahy Esq was David Leahy's father, the corn merchants were his grandsons. I'm particularly interested in learning more about David as he may have been the author of 'A Review of the Principal Facts Connected with the Rise, Progress, Conclusion, and Character of Recent State Prosecutions in Ireland: including an examination of the most important of the decisions and opinions of the judges in both countries, and of the judgment of the house of lords.'
It was published anonymously, 'a barrister', and has been attributed to a David Leahy.
It's a long shot, but the world gets smaller and smaller with the wonders of the internet!
Cheers.
Janet
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Janet,
Could you possibly tell me what the names and birth years were for the children of John Leahy, Esq, and his wife's name as well? The only information I could find was from genealogy text and I was unsure how reliable it was.
Also, can you pinpoint for me exactly where South Hill in Killarney is located? I can't seem to find it on any maps.
Many thanks!
Joe
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Hi Joe
I've put together a sketch of the Leahy family of South Hill as part of a local history project; John Leahy's family was large so it might be easier for you to read this. It is just completed, and will be available soon at www.rootin4u.com. South Hill is one of three names applied to an area in Co Kerry more commonly known as the Mill Road. The townland is Coolclogher, you'll find a website designated to John Leahy's former home under that name. Good luck with your research!
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Dear Janet,
Thanks so much for your response, and I look forward to seeing what you have on your website.
In the meantime, I would like to ask you one question. Do you have the name of the wife of John Leahy, Esq., 1770-1846? I found a John Leahy married to an Elizabeth Thompson who was of the same approximate age, and also in the Killarney area; moreover, he had a David Leahy as his 5th child. Do you know if this could be the same John Leahy, or am I following the wrong person.
Thanks for your response!
Joe
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Hi Joe
John Leahy's wife was Elizabeth Ashe, born in 1789. She died at her son Henry's residence, Flesk Cottage, Killarney, on 22 March 1864. Hope this helps.
Janet
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Janet,
Thanks for that information. One follow-up; there are extensive baptism records (LDS films) for Killarney for the same time period as the years in which John Leahy ESQ and Elizabeth Ashe's children were born, but I cannot find a single record for the birth of any of their children. Any idea why that might be the case? I found book references to Elizabeth Ashe being the wife of John Leahy ESQ, too, but I wondered if there was any possibility of those books being incorrect. One thing that I have found is that sometimes there a critical error is made, sometimes in older books, and this error is then repeated over and over again.
There is wedding record for John Leahy and Elizabeth Thompson for 1805 in Killarney, and some of their children included a John, Thomas, and David, and David was their 5th child. I considered whether this could actually be John Leahy Esq. I know it could be coincidental, but it doesn't make sense to me that there are no records for the marriage of John Leahy and Elizabeth Ashe, or any of their children, especially for someone of such high standing.
Do you have any thoughts?
Thanks,
Joe
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Dear Joe
I heartily agree with you that early mistakes are all too readily repeated, complicated of course when dealing with common names. You've raised a big question mark over Elizabeth's identity, and it looks as if no small amount of research is necessary to solve it. For the purposes of my research however, I have focussed on the main line; I can't offer any comment on baptism records because I have not consulted them. Nor can I offer indepth information on all the Leahy children because such research was not necessary for my purposes.
What I can say however, if it helps you, is that I have gathered dates from the family vault, complemented by primary research. I can assure you that John Leahy Esq of South Hill and Elizabeth are interred along with a number of their sons in Killarney. If the stone mason and the press had it wrong, Joe, then perhaps we should abandon research altogether!
I have no idea what direction your research is taking, so there is not much more I can add to help you.
All the best
Janet
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Janet,
For the marriage of John Leahy and Elizabeth Thompson, I have an actual date of 2/12/1805.
Here is what I have for actual (LDS) baptismal records for John Leahy and Elizabeth Thompson from Killarney Parish:
Catherine Leahy 27/10/1805
Daniel Leahy 7/3/1807 (listed as born in "Glynns", could be Glen or Glen Flesk?)
Michael Leahy 17/9/1810 (listed as born in "Allanes")
John Leahy 18/5/1813
David and Thomas Leahy 28/11/1815
Elizabeth Leahy 7/12/1822
Compare this with what is in the book by Burke for John Leahy and Elizabeth Ashe:
marriage 1809
John born 1810
Richard born 1811
Edward born 1812
Henry born 1820
David born 1826
Thomas born 1828
Arthur born 1830
Charles John born 1833
Maybe I am just completely wrong, because the LDS John Leahy family does not match up well with the John Leahy family in the book by Burke. The children listed in both cases are John, David, and Thomas, but in some cases the years are way off.
As far as why I am interested, I have some evidence that Daniel Leahy from the LDS records (b. 1807) was my ggg-grandfather. I'm not trying to "link up" with John Leahy, Esq because he has a title - this is simply where my research has taken me.
In any event, I certainly appreciate your taking the time to reply to me. And yes, I do trust the stone masons and the press! Best regards, Joe
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Hi Joe
I must keep this brief as I'm running late, but take it from me Burke's cannot be taken as gospel, I've found a number of erroneus dates in this work. There was no Daniel among the South Hill Leahys, I'm afraid.
There is a rather infamous case among my notes of the murder of 68-years old Daniel Leahy at the hands of moonlighters at Scarteen, in Killarney in 1882. He had lived in Killarney town before moving to Scarteen. This was a different family to South Hill, a prosperous farming family. The atrocity was highlighted in a government enquiry and widely reported in the press. How hard is your evidence that the Daniel Leahy born in 1807 is the one you seek?
All the best,
Janet
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Janet,
I'm fine with my Daniel not being with the South Hill Leahy's, but if Burke's is incorrect, then what evidence is there that Daniel is not from that family? What if John Leahy Esq had children that Burke does not list? That's really what I'm looking for - evidence that Daniel is or evidence that he isn't in this family.
I do not as yet have hard evidence that my Daniel is the one born to John Leahy and Elizabeth Thompson in 1807. I do have my Daniel's marriage record from 1836, and he is listed as being from "West Glins" (Glen or Glen Flesk?). Moreover, the Tithe Applotments for Killarney of 1834 have Daniel Leahy and John Leahy II (and David, Richard, and Thomas Leahy) owning land in nearby townlands around Gortugullane and Coolclogher. But it does not add up to hard evidence.
So there are really two issues here for me - is my Daniel Leahy the son of John Leahy and Elizabeth Thompson, and born in 1807, and secondly, was John Leahy Esq married to Elizabeth Ashe or Elizabeth Thompson, and is the list of their children in Burke incomplete?
I am currently working with a genealogist in Ireland, one request per month, beginning with the 1830's and going backwards, so by Christmas maybe I will have some solid information! Best, Joe
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Joe
I suggest you stick with the facts you have and follow them to avoid getting lost in the woods, so to speak. If you're certain the marriage cert you have is that of your ancestor, then follow that course. If Daniel was from South Hill, it would have been stated on his marriage certificate. He was from West Glins; that is the course I would follow. As far as 'Glins' is concerned, you might be interested in reading a delightful essay on such a place written by Bill Quirke. You can find it in chapter 6 (The People of the Glens) of the book Killarney National Park, A Place to Treasure, published by Collins Press in 2001. It's so beautifully written it'll make you cry.
I see you have a genealogist working for you, so I'm not in a position to offer more guidance. But I will keep an eye for you, in the course of my work.
Janet
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Dear Janet
Some thoughts upon Shane's and your Messages.
Shaw's Directory for 1850 confirms that David was an attorney and was either a partnerto Sir Richard Orpen(or an associate) at No. 41 North Great George's Street (called Kenmare House with fine wall frescoes) There is no reference to him that I can find in the Irish Times newspaper at this address. I note that Sir Richard Orpen had premises at Ardtully,Kenmare and this might show how they linked up
The law comentary to which you refer was written by a barrister yet David was a solicitor!!Without sight or other knowledge of the work I guess that it relates to the treason felony trials of 1848 and suggest that you contact the Librarian of Kings Inns Dublin or failing that the faculties of UCD or TCD who might have further information as to the author.
Regards
Quaxer
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Dear Quaxer
Thanks for your thoughts. You’ll have to forgive my ignorance of matters legal. Could a barrister in 1845 change profession to attorney by 1850? It seems unlikely ‘my’ David Leahy is the author of this publication as checks in the Colloquial Who’s Who and Anonyma and Pseudonyma reckon David’s birth as circa 1800, a date that doesn’t fit with this Leahy.
The Sir Richard Orpen connection is interesting. Thanks for your time!
Janet
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Janet
Generally abarrister is one who argues the case in court while an attorney is the lawyer you meet at street level. There is probably more prestige being a barrister while there is greater profit being an attorney.
Do you want any information I have about Sir Richard Orpen?
Regards Quaxer
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Dear Quaxer
Thanks for that. Orpen is a name that keeps cropping up, and who knows what it might lead to so yes, if you have time, I'd be interested.
Regards
Janet
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Janet
Herewith some entrie from my Irish Times source work:
November 30th 1860 on P.1 advert. shows Orpen Sons & Sweeny
On July 15th 1861 is recorded the death of Emily Stack (nee Orpen)
August 15th 1861 an entry for Arthur Herbert Orpen (no pagination in newspaper at that date)
On November 15 th 1869 the death of Lady Orpen is recorded.
May 6th 1876 P.1 death of Sir Richard J.T.Orpen
The was put up for sale the following year and in 1878 Isaac Butt Q.C> is shown as an occupant.
No.41 was called Kenmare House in a death notice in 1899 but Frederick O'Dwyer in his most useful book"Lost Dublin" states that the actual Kenmare House was in fact at No.35 Nothing I have here supports Fo'D on this point.
He also writes at P.72 that Sir Richard (sometime President of the Incorp. Law Society)bought the house before 1819 .
Georgian Dublin by Kevin Corrigan Kearns ISBN 0-7153-8440-6 has a useful article on the street in general at P.87
Regards Quaxer
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Many thanks for that Quaxer. I've made a record of all this information for future use. Hope I can return the compliment some day!
All the best.
Janet
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Hello,
Still trying to get more information on John Leahy, b. 1776, of South Hill. Was he and his descendants Catholic or Protestant?
Thanks!
Joe
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Church of Ireland Joe.
Janet
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Janet,
Thanks, and I think I have the whole John Leahy issue resolved. My John Leahy and Elizabeth Thompson were Catholic, based on their marriage records. In the Tithe Applotment records from the early 1830's, "John Leahy, Esq" appears several times, including once for Coolclogher, but another "John Leahy", written without "Esq" also appears. Everything points to these being two different individuals. My John Leahy was apparently from "Glenns", which I take to be the townland of Glen in nearby Killaha.
Thanks so much for your patience - I was happy to have this resolved!
Joe
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Hi Joe
Glad you're making some progress. You sound relieved! I urge you though to read the essay on the people of the glens I mentioned earlier, try to avoid 'taking' anything to be anything until you've covered as much ground as you can. You'll be surprised at the difference between Glen and Glenns.
A couple of years ago I wrote a short history of the Tullaha/Killaha area relating largely to the O'Donoghue family that dominated the area but I think all copies are gone. If I find one I'll copy it for you.
Janet
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Hi Janet,
Yes, I am starting to make some progress. You're telling me about the John Leahy, Esq. being Church of Ireland was a relief - an easy way of distinguishing from my Leahy's.
Making progress on the Glenns/Glinns/Glynns issue, too. I've collected a list of all the Killarney RC marriages from 1792 to the 1839, and it is clear that Glenns/Glinns/Glynns are all variation of one place in Killarney parish. I also compared those records with the Tithe Applotment records and the Griffiths Valuation, and it is clear that this place is not the same as Glen Killaha, which is what I thought earlier. The place that was listed as Glenns/Glinns/Glynns was apparently located in the vicinity of Faghcullia and Minish, but I'm not sure exactly where. The name Glenns/Glinns/Glynns must have fallen into misuse between the 1830's and the 1850's (time of Griffiths Valuation). Interestingly, I did not seem the name Minish mentioned in the early records, so it is possible that Glenns/Glinns/Glynns or portion of it became Minish over time. I'm not sure about the history there. I might try to find someone at Trinity College library to see if there is any clues on this topic.
Thanks so much again for your assistance - you saved me from pursuing an incorrect line of research!
Joe
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Joe
Please Joe, take time to listen! Don't go reinventing the wheel when there's no need. Read the article I have twice referred you to, it applies to you. Here's an excerpt, 'Among the familiar Killarney townland names lie occasional references to an area called 'Glynns', a name unknown and unused today. Close examination of the church archive reveals a few entries which, as well as referring to Glynns, give a townland name as well. For example, we have in 1812 the marriage of Mary Leahy of Cloghfune-Glynns, in 1820 of Margaret Quirke of Glynns-Derrycunnihy, in 1825 of Mary Connane of Glens-Cores. These records establish that the name Glynns refers to the ten or so mountain townlands which now make up the main south-eastern mountain area of the national park'.
A great amount of research has been carried out by Bill Quirke, why not read his work before putting yourself to the trouble of going to Trinity?
Good luck with it anyway!
Janet
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Janet,
Sorry, consider myself admonished. You're absolutely right - my real job keeps interfering with my genealogy and I just glossed right over your Glinns reference. That is undoubtedly the correct place.
Thanks!
Joe
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Sorry Joe, didn't mean to tell you off! Just didn't want to see you carried out to sea on the wrong wave of enthusiasm. Best! Janet
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Janet,
That's no problem at all. I looked at the Tithe Applotment records that I have, which are really difficult to read, and what was probably my John Leahy had significant land in both Gortroe and Cloghfune. From what you have indicated, it seems as though "Glinns" occupied the area of many townlands south of Lough Leane. If so, then Gortroe and Cloghfune might be in what was considered "West Glinns", which would match up with the marriage record that I have. I might not ever be able to confirm, but it's a good working hypothesis for now.
I've ordered the Bill Quirke book through interlibrary loan, too!
Thanks,
Joe
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That's great Joe, now you seem to be making headway. You will enjoy the article, and if an article is the closest you can ever come to 'knowing' your ancestors, you'll find it a deserving one.
Janet
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Janet,
Yes, I'm sure I will enjoy it. Thanks again for your help!
Joe