RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: jode12 on Wednesday 12 August 09 23:07 BST (UK)
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I was wondering if anyone can tell me is Loveless a gypsy surname?
Cuz people have said it is but i cant find any think to see if its true!
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I don't think so Jodie, But you have something far more exciting. Loveless was the surname of one of the Tolpuddle martyrs. Try googling that to find out about it.
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Jode; I'd suspect people are confusing Loveless with strongly traditional Gypsy names such as Lovell and Loveridge ;)
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Is Lavengro a gypsey surname?
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No, mate. Lavengro translates as 'Man of Words'. I don't really think there's an accepted surname one could match that into.
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Does anyone know if Povey or Greenhouse surnames have strong gypsy roots
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Niether are listed in The Book of Bob, DudleyLad. But Green is strongly represented, along with a couple of derivatives. So, that one's a possibility.
" Povey " ? One that has a ring, for me. I knew a Povey. I'm also quite sure I've seen it listed, elsewhere, as of Gypsy connotation.
Interesting thing is; Here, in Eire, Gypsys are known as " Pavie's ". I've heard it pronounced ' Paw Vee ' ..... See what I'm saying? ;)
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A friend once told me that Porritt came from Irish tinker stock, can anyone confirm please? Also, how about the surname Tinker, occupational or gypsey roots?
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Redroger; Bob Dawson doesn't list 'Porrit'. But, then he doesn't really 'do' Irish Gypsy names in this book. So that sort of leaves that one up in the air, as far as we can take it with my one book of such matters.
Saying that though; As soon as I read 'Porrit', my mind wanted to say " Padraig ". See?
Hmm. Just in case anyone coming across this thinks, " What in blazes is the man on about?! ". Here's a break down: I once read a novel featuring a " Padraig ". Every time I read that name, my mind said " Pad Raig ". I figured it was just the authors way of giving " Patrick " that Irish drag. I guessed the Irish spelled 'Patrick' as 'Padraig' as an Irish alternative.
Then, one night in the pub ~ here in Eire ~ I called a taxi. My friends asked me who I called and I told them " Pad'Raig ". Then watched in horror as the looks of " Eh?! ". " WTF's he on about?! ". " Who?! ". Passed among them.
Five minutes later, in walked my 'Padraig' and all the locals started greeting him; " Ahh! Hullo, PORRIG! ..... " :-\ I learned. I've also since detected that a man can be 'Porrick' too. There's a distinction.
" Porrit " ? Again, like I say, nothing I can cite in lit. But ye see where I'm coming from?
" Tinker " ? I'd always believed that to be an occupational description. Like Smith. British, at that. Brit's call Irish and Scottish Gypsys 'Tinkers'. The Irish call them " Knackers ". That too stems from a job description; They often take the job of removing fallen livestock.
I think I'll stop there. Else we'll be off into the realms of Romanes next, and I can already sense ye eyes glazing over! ;D
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Thanks Steve, I too have a Burge from Dorset in the tree. Any Luffman entries?
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:o Burge, from Dorset??? Now my heart's pounding! Nothing to do with Hawkers, or similar trades, were they?
I must just go see to my creatures. Then I'll be back here and can settle down properly.
Luffman? Not as yet, I'm afraid.
Give me half an hour or so. Rushed off my feet just yet.
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Betty Burge, my likely 4 great grandmother buried 28th September 1760 at Henstridge Somerset,the wife of William Luffman b 1718 Oborne Dorset, died 1784 Henstridge.He was the son of Mathew Luffman b 1685 Maperton Som. and Sarah Busse or Bassett.William and Betty married 4th Oct 1748 in Henstridge. Unfortunately I have no further information.
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??? Roger; Have you ever made contact with David Burge? If not, let's take this to PM and I'll sort ye out.
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Niether are listed in The Book of Bob, DudleyLad. But Green is strongly represented, along with a couple of derivatives. So, that one's a possibility.
" Povey " ? One that has a ring, for me. I knew a Povey. I'm also quite sure I've seen it listed, elsewhere, as of Gypsy connotation.
Interesting thing is; Here, in Eire, Gypsys are known as " Pavie's ". I've heard it pronounced ' Paw Vee ' ..... See what I'm saying? ;)
Thanks very much Steve G, the Povey line on my fiancees side is confusing to say the least
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Steve G. Tried contacting David Burge on the link you gave me, result so far nothing. Anything you can do would be very helpful.
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Stevie G and Dudleylad,
I have a non Gypsy, Povey friend who told me that the true pronunciation was Puvvey. He also told me that someone in his family had been DNA tested and that the male line was Neolithic British ( pre Celtic).
This fits nicely into the theory that the Irish Pavee Travellers are the descendants of the original inhabitants of these islands. I think that whilst Povey is certainly not a Gypsy/ Traveller name, there could be an ancient tie there.
On An65's excellent site there are Poveys listed as lodgers with the Boswell family.
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Ye've got me thinking now, Vince. DNA, eh? Hmm. Seriously; The idea's been floating about in the back of my mind for a week or three now. I might have to look back into it.
See, the fact is, I've always been more fascinated with my maternal line. Simply because they're more fascinating! They're a real hotch potch of intriguing possibilities.
My paternal side? Peas in a pod as far back as I've got. But, then they drop off the radar and I, effectively, haven't got a as to my roots. Ironically; My mothers side were well known to have travelled as 'Gypsys'. Yet my Dads lot carry a well known Romani surname!
I haunt these boards really in search of clues to the maternal lot. Be bloody ironic if my Dad turned out to lead back to India! :-X
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On the subject of DNA, particularly pre neolithic, "The Origins of the British" by Stephen Oppenheimer is a very worthwhile read. His thesis in a nutshell is that the vast majority of people living in Britain today descend from a group of people who survived the last Ice Age in a refuge area in northern Spain, which approximates to the Basque region today.
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DNA testing is not everyone's cup of tea and i understand that. I did a test with don Lock's project and one of the great surprises is the amount of people who carry the Gypsy gene and don't know it. It is rarer on the female side (up to yet) because gypsy men have always married out. I was somewhat surprised to find that my smith line went back to India. Had I done the female line, my Boswell Mum had a Rafferty mother so I would hasard a guess that a test would have shown European roots.
I now get e-mails from people all over the world desperate for an explanation as to why they have an Indian root when they only have european ancestry in living memory. Just shows how many got deported.
Non of this replaces good old fashioned family research but I find it interesting anyway.
That book sounds right up my street Rodger, I'll be getting it soon . :)
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Could I have the link to An65's website please?
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Had I done the female line, my Boswell Mum had a Rafferty mother so I would hasard a guess that a test would have shown European roots.
??? One moment, please. This is where my head starts to hurt.
Boswell is about as Romani as it gets. So, there's India. Right? Rafferty? Ireland? Ok. Now it's Europe instead. But, where does that end? What if Rafferty (for the purposes of keeping it clear what I'm trying to express) was born of Kawazaki? Then we're in the Far East. And, if Kawazaki just happened to be from an Eskimo mother ....?
My point being; If Rafferty over writes Boswell? Where does that pattern stop? Surely it must go back to 'year dot' and the very original female. And she might have stemmed from who knows where.
Taking a more personal approach to it? My G.Gran is said to have been born in Devon. But, she's also 'said to' have been a Pavee ~ by blood. My Mum and Gran were both born in england. So, does Gran's blood win out in all this, over Mums? Seems so.
But that excludes the potential for G.Gran's alleged blood. And, even if that is Pavee? It'd still come back as Neolithic Mainland British? ???
This whole thing really does make my head spin. Is there anywhere one can read a very simple explanation of all this? Written slowly. In big letters :-\
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My suggestion buy the book I mentioned earlier, it clarified very many things for me about our origins. Well worth a read, it was good value in Hard Back, and I believe it's now in paperback too.
"Origins of the British" Stephen Openheimer
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Cheers, RedRoger. On its way from Amazon right now ;)
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Steve, (And any other purchaser) Enjoy!!
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hello
PETERS is a gyspy name..
we were chimney sweeps in Hampshire..upto when my grandad died..no other member carried on lol..
trying to find out when we came to UK ..wewere in WILTSHIRE at on time..
jenny
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"Origins of the British" Stephen Openheimer
:o Dear god! It's just arrived; All Six Hundred Plus Pages! This one should keep me going for a while .....
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hello
what has arrived..
jenny
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Check out the quote, in the blue slot on my post .....
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Steve, If you are near your computer for the next few days, enjoy the book!!
Jenny, Steve has followed my suggestion and bought "The Origins of the British" by Stephen Oppenheimer. A very interesting book about the subject stated in its title.
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I have been able to solve the mystery, it seems the gypsy connection came from my fiancees great great grandmother Lily Jones whoose sister married a famous Pat Collins Fair Boxing Stall Propierter by the name of Charlie Hickman (who from stories told once held the Lonsdale Belt and also trained Randolph Turpin)
The Jones Family as a whole must have uprooted from Walsall and travelled with Fair