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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kirkcudbrightshire => Topic started by: rlheco on Monday 10 August 09 16:39 BST (UK)
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I am (along with others) researching the Millar (Miller) clan who emigrated from the Kirkcudbright/Dumfries area and settled mostly in Southern Ontario. Proliferating and spreading from there.
The Millars are connected to Burgess for example Bryce Burgess Millar who was born to Agnes McMichael Burgess "in uncleanness" :o :o :o according to the PR. The Bastard son of William Millar b c 1808 himself thought to be the son of John Millar and Janet Stoba. Info is sketchy on this family as I do not believe that Janet Stoba and John Millar ever married.
There is a baptism record for our direct line for Williams (alleged) brother John b 1794 and baptised as "illeg" son of John Millar and Janet Stoba of Caerlaverock (near Dumfries). John became the Blacksmith in Terregles, raised a family who for the most part made their way to Canada. There son James (1822-1881) stayed behind in Terregles to take over the Blacksmith business with his wife Margaret Jane/Jean McLeod (1822-1901)
John Millar b 1794 children with Margaret Francis (1793-1887 Huntsville, Ontario, Canada):
James (c1822) and Robert (c 1824) stayed in Scotland, however John (1825) , Catherine (abt 1823) (married Gabriel Copeland), William (b 1832) and David (1838) all came to Canada. Their mother came too and it is not known what became of the father John b aprox 1794.
Trying to shore up this blood relation to Burgess and hopefully find more info on William so as to know for sure that he is related to the other Millars in our direct family tree. (check this related Thread for Burgess in Canada and elsewhere http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,356098.0.html)
Likewise looking for info on the Stoba's as relates to Janet (b cir 1760) and her close friend/lover John Millar (b cir 1775)
Any shipping manifests showing the family emigrating to North America in the 1850-1870's.
Also any other input that might prove useful in connecting the Kirkcudbright/Dumfries Millars
Thanks
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I do hope someone can help, rheco :)
Just to add for those who might read this that we do have details of Agnes McMichael Burgess and her ancestors.
Gadget
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Hi again
I seem to recall from distant cousin in Toronto (descended from Agnes's sister, Jane, I think) that the Burgess/Millar group were in Minnigaff at one stage.
Do you have the families on the 1841/1851 censuses?
I have Bryce with his grandmother, Euphemia, in Kells on the 1841.
Gadget
PS and are you sure that William Millar was Bryce Burgess Millar's father? I can't recall the cert saying that but I've not seen it for a while.
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The entry for John Millar bpt 1794, Caerlaverock, reads:
Sept 28th 1794 JohnMillar illeg son to John Millar day labourer of Tongland and Janet Stoba Caerlaverock
I'll check up on William Millar bc.c1808 to see if I can find anything.
Nothing so far on Janet Stoba :(
Gadget
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Re William MIll*r:
I have
25 Oct 1807 s/o James Millar and Rosina Harkness, Langholm, DFS
and
30 Sept 1806 s/o William Millar and Susan Thomson, New Abbey, KKd
Your William might well have not made the baptismal records for some reason or other.
Where did you get the info that John andWilliam were brothers and that John Millar and Janet Stoba might be William's parents?
Gadget
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Could this be Janet Stoba:
14 Sept 1760, Caerlaverock - Janet Stobie d/o Thomas Stobie and Janet Bell
I used soundex on SP.
Gadget
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11 Stoba and 3 Stobie bpts in Caerlaverock 1710 - 1830
One good sign is that the Stobie births are all to Thomas Stobie and Janet Bell and at least one of the Stoba births are to Thomas Stoba and Janet Bell so I think that there might well have been a change in spelling or mistranscription along the way.
It looks a strong possible that Thomas Stobie/Stoba and Janet Bell were the parents of Janet Stoba/Stobie.
also 15 Stoba in Caerlaverock in 1841.
Gadget
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Could this be Janet Stoba:
14 Sept 1760, Caerlaverock - Janet Stobie d/o Thomas Stobie and Janet Bell
I used soundex on SP.
That was my guess as I think I saw that baptism at Scotland People PR's or in the IGI. But without a marriage to John Millar and the mention of parents it is difficult to say for certain. What might help is if there was a Kirk Session over the "uncleanness" that surrounded John 1794 birth. But I am unaware of the location of those records if any exist. But your logic is sound. The name Stobie might as well be the same as Stoba with the variants in Surname spelling. The Stoba's were Prussian in origin from what I have read and may have had some class that prevented a formal marriage.
William is the father listed on the PR for Bryce Burgess Millar. The other question about the relationship of William to John is by way of family oral traditions. I believe that the "brother" relation is quite tentative but the two families (Millar and Burgess) were quite bound together in Canada.
This connection was related to me by another family researcher in Toronto, possibly the one that you are referring to.....PM and we can compare notes.
rlheco
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Unless the couple were married by a Church of Scotland minister, a marriage would not be entered into the parish records. Other forms of marriage were quite legal under Scots law, including common law. Also, not all parish records have survived - there is a whole section of Parton records that are missing which probably contain the marriage of my 2 xgrt grandparents. Further, John and Janet might never have married. They were in different parishes, after all.
The Kirk Session minutes will be at the National Archives in Edinburgh. I believe that SP do have a plan to put them online at some stage but the indexing of them has caused a delay (type of indes, etc.). There are online indexes available for Dumfries and another couple of of Dumfriesshire parishes but that is all from this area.
What other information do you have available for William (b.c. 1808)? How do you know that this William is the William mentioned as Bryce's father? You don't mention whether you have followed the family to the 1841 cesus or if he remained in Scotland. Euphemia and her family moved toCanada in late 1840s - early 1850s.
Gadget
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William Millar was 'of Minnigaff' on Bryce Burgess Millar's bpt record in 1835. I'm still trying to work out how the Caerlaverock/Tongland Millars are linked apart from the same surname. I can't see anything to back up the claim that William (who you say was b.c. 1808)and John (b. 1794) were brothers).
I checked the 1841 and don't find a William Millar/Miller in Minigaff but there are a number of possibles in Kirkcudbrightshire and Dumfriesshire. There is only one born circa 1808 though - or 1806-1811 to allow for the 1841 census rounding - a William Millar, in Dalry, aged 35, b. Ireland
The name Bryce/Brice is an unusual one in the family. I wonder if that is a clue to the Millar family.
Gadget
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I have sent a message to our Toronto researcher for clarification on the inclusion of William from Minnigaf. If I recall this was based on word of mouth thru the family as there is little other than the Bryce Burgess Millar baptism reference to "William of Minigaff" (I must admit that is quite a distance from Dumfries and Caelaverock...but not too far to rule out.). Otherwise we have no idea if he died prior to the 1841 Census, is hiding or has moved elsewhere in the British Domain. If you note my initial post refers to the tentative nature of this relative. My hope is that perhaps some other researcher into Burgess and the KKD/Dumfries history may click on something more concrete.
The samples you found of William's born around that time could be right as well and thus put William as possible cousin to our John b 1794. Perhaps the parent James Millar is connected to Janet Stoba's John Millar. This would push the possible connection back a generation.
Agnes McMichael's marriage to James Dargavel in 1843 and Bryce's rearing by her parents shows that her relationship with William was not enduring for whatever reason. The naming of Bryce by the birth father's surname is indicative of something above a casual encounter I would think. My experience with contemporary Millar's shows a desire to hide such indiscretions at all cost. :o :o
We are also at a loss as to what became of Blacksmith John Millar b 1794 Caerlaverock. There was a notice to creditors in around 1860 but we are unsure whether he died about then or just liquidated because he and wife Margaret were off to join their children in Canada. Margaret Millar (nee Francis) did show up alone in the 1881 Canada Census with her youngest son David in Muskoka, and she died around 1887 and is buried on the homestead there.
Hope that helps to explain things so far. (Got the clarification and am PMing you)
rlheco
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Hi
I think I know all the Burgess KKD researchers alive, RH, and have been in contact with them for about 7 years. I also have all the information that was left with the Parton Kirk Sessions Clerk for future researchers by long dead cousins and have made contact with a descendant of each child of John Burgess and Jean Spalding.
My Toronto researcher cousin did have lots of errors in her initial tree - like marriages before births, etc. which I queried with her a few years back.
I've spent years correcting many errors in the line and have passed my information on to other cousins.
Basically, if I don't have it, I've not come across anyone who has more.
At that time, it was quite usual for illegitimate children to be known by the surname of the father, if known.
Did you get the 1808 birth date via our mutual contact?
Gadget
PS - think we'll go into PM mode while we're sorting this out!
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I've spent years correcting many errors in the line and have passed my information on to other cousins.
I pm'd you the reasoning behind including William in with our Millars. It is word of mouth from first hand sources and has a place in furthering research until proven wrong.
I think we all have and are all trying to eliminate errors. Peer review and collaboration is a good way to do that. The IGI (and family research centers) was one of the few (online) resources available a few years ago and it is riddled with spurious fabrications. The Mormon/LDS motivation for collecting much of this data is more in response to "religious zeal" to proselytize "the dead" and less to the pursuit of fact. I am glad it is there, but it has its shortcomings....I digress.
I submit that the more we push away at these "walls" the closer we get to the truth. After viewing these other two threads on Burgess I think it is inevitable if not the ultimate goal each of us has. The positive results from those threads is what inspired my post.
Likewise it was your input on those threads and this one that encourage me to explore Rootschat further as you are an able researcher, no doubt.
Have you ever been able to establish ships passage and transport, Scotland to Canada for any of these families?
rlheco