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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Steven1314 on Sunday 09 August 09 13:37 BST (UK)
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Hi my great great great grandfather Ambrose Stokes was a Lighterman or Waterman and I managed to find out that to work on the water you needed to have successfully completed an apprenticeship and that these records may be kept at Kew. Does anyone know if these types of records can be viewed online or whether a trip to Kew is needed.
His date of birth was 21/11/1845 in Brentford and when his daughter was born on 8/8/1876 his occupation was Lighterman and when she married on 25/12/1895 his occupation was a Waterman.
If anyone can help that would be great.
Steven
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Hi
The National Archives hold government department records so would only have employment records for people who were employed by govenment departments e.g. soldiers employed by the War Office for instance.
Watermen and lightermen were one of the London Guilds. The records are held at the Guildhall Library.
Guildhall Library research guide
http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/water.htm
This website gives more information and offers a research service
http://www.parishregister.com/aboutstp.html
Regards
Valda
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Thanks again Valda looks like I have quite a task ahead but hopefully an enjoyable one
Steven
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I have found an ambrose stokes in brentford taking on an apprentice named thomas walter bird in 1873, cant find an apprentice binding for ambrose though.
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Thanks Chloe. I presume that if Ambrose took on an apprentice he must have himself been a fully qualified Waterman?
Is there anywhere I can go to next without having to make a trip to London? Did you find out this information via a website or do you have access to apprenticeship records?
I did find him on the 1881 census on board HMS Icarus as a boat boy so looks like he started off in water and then kept it up. I am just trying to find out as much as I can on his career. I think from my research so far that he died in Brentford in 1887 and he would have only been about 42 when he died. I haven't ordered a copy of his death certificate but this might be the next step as there may be a chance he died whilst working which may give me some more clues.
Many thanks for all your help
Steven
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found him in the apprenticeship bindings i have, its strange i cant find his apprenticeship though. I see he was in the navy in 1861 maybe the training he got there qualified him to take on an apprentice later on, you could try asking the experts on parishregister.com if this would be so. they specialise in watermen history on their boards.
regards chloe
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Hi
1861 census RG9 4484 folio 95A
Scarus Portsmouth Harbour
Ambrose Stokes 15 years 5 months Boy 2nd class New Brentford Middlesex
The men above Ambrose in the schedule are all initialled RM and RMA = Royal Marines Artillery and Royal Marines.
Nothing showing in TNA's online indexes for service records for Royal Marines or navy seamen.
Regards
Valda
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Thanks Valda and Chloe for your help will try the other website. I initially thought that the Ship was called Scarus but when you view the original census you can see it is in fact the Icarus and managed to find out some information on this ship.
Steven
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Having read these messages with interest I hope I am not thought as jumping on the band wagon as it were.
I have a boat family name of Stockwell, just a few of their children were born at Bulls Bridge Hartington, their boat was named Jane, (found on census )seems they went up and down the Grand Union canal to Paddington, can anyone tell me where Bulls Bridge is please
Thank you in anticpation
Louisa Maud
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Hi Steven & Maud,
I have Waterman in my tree too...!
Carol
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Hi
Could it be Harlington? In which case just Google 'Bulls Bridge'.
Regards
Valda
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Actually I suspect it is Harlington but I took it from the census,
Thank you both Valda and Treetotal
Louisa Maud
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Hi Louisa
Bulls Bridge is in on the borders of Hayes and Southall in Middlesex. There is a Bulls Bridge Public House right on the canal.
Joy
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Hello Steven
I believe we are descended from the same stock.
Ambrose commenced his appreticeship on the 12/06/1866 at Brentford with John Clark and it was completed on the 13/08/1872.
Regards
Maria Louisa
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Thanks Maria Louisa I have sent you a PM to find out what you mean by same stock. I received Ambrose's death certificate during the week. He died in 1887 aged 40 of malignant jaundice. Not sure exactly what that is. I tried to search for it online but it hasn't helped.
I also have his birth certificate and have him on every census. I think because he doesn't have a common name that it has made it easier. My other English ancestors have the name Smith so that hasn't been too easy. Although my great grandfather and great great grandfather are both called Solomon and I have managed to find out a little on them but it has been really difficult.
Steven
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Hello Steven,
I'm afraid I can't send you a personal message at the moment as my reply to your query was the first time I have used this website and I understand I have to make three postings before I can use the personal messaging service.
I came across the site quite by accident as I was looking for references to Ambrose Stokes as his name was more unusual than other menbers of the Stokes family. Most of the family seemed to be connected with the water, be they watermen, lightermen, bargemen or fishermen. I obtained the info from a cd which lists mainly the apprenticeship bindings between 1692 and 1949 but the only info shown is what I mentioned in my previous posting.
I am descended from Ambrose's sister Susanna.
Regards
Maria Louisa
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Thanks Maria Louisa can't believe I have come across someone on a forum who has a common ancestor. I don't know what you know or don't know but Ambrose's father was Samuel Stokes and his mother was Sarah Nixon (I think its Nixon but can't be sure from quality of Ambrose's birth certificate). I don't know if you can check from your CD to see if you come across Samuel.
I was on another forum and they found Samuel under the following
Samuel Stokes bound 13/08/1829 to Henry Perry at Strand On Green.
I take it that you found reference to Ambrose on a census when looking for your ancestor Susanna? I found Ambrose on the 1861 census and the 1871 census and also 1881 census. Did you manage to find him on the 1851 census. I had no luck finding the 1851 census which I thought would have given more information on Ambrose's parents and siblings.
Do you know anything else on Samuel or Sarah or even any more information on them going further back. I know that when Ambrose was born in 1845 his parents were living in New Brentford as that is listed on the birth certificate.
Any more information you can give me would be great
Steven
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Hello Steven
You are correct in saying that Ambrose's parents were Samuel Stokes and Sarah Nixon. The only early census that I found them on was the 1841. They were living with Sarah's parents, James Nixon and Susannah (possibly Morrill or Merrell? I'm not absolutely sure about her surname.) and their children Lucy and an un-named child who I later found was named William despite being listed on the census as a girl together with Samuel's brother George, also a lighterman. The two children plus another named Samuel who was born in 1841 all died within weeks of one another in 1842.
I also have the baptism date for Ambrose, it was 25/12/1845 at St. Lawrence, New Brentford.
Regards
Maria Louisa