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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: yelkcub on Saturday 08 August 09 16:54 BST (UK)
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My ancestor Abraham Horsfall (1733-1807), married to Martha Thomas (1755), mentioned eight children in his will. A while ago someone was kind enough to look up the family in Wilson’s Baptisms at the Chapels of Heptonstall and Cross Stone … Only three of Abraham and Martha’s children seem to listed: John (1755), Richard (1758) and Philip (1774). The missing names are Susan, James, Abraham, Sarah, Betty. In Abraham’s will his children are named in that order (with John and Richard coming first, and Philip last of all), which suggests that it was their birth order. Does anyone know whether it is possible that the missing children might have been baptised elsewhere, or might it be the case that some entries in the original, from which Wilson made his transcription, are illegible?
Philip was born in Pickovergate (various spellings) – where both Abraham and Sarah died, so the family probably inhabited the same place for a long period. Does anyone have any information about Pickovergate? Was it a farm, or a group of cottages, or an area – and does the name still exist in present-day Todmorden?
Another place, associated with the next generation of Horsfalls, was Lowersmithy (or Lower Smith, or Smithy). Wilson adds an H, suggesting that it was in Heptonstall. Any ideas?
I would be grateful for some local knowledge!
Ian
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Hi Ian
Just using Google, I found something on the National Archives site that says Pick Over Gate was near Stansfield (1851 census)
Linda
Added - There's also a house for sale at 1 Pickover Gate, Butts Lane plus a map see www.mouseprice.com/property-information/ref-17863006
Added - looking at the original images for Stansfield in 1851, there were 4 households in Pick Over Gate, none of them Horsfall
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Hi Ian,
I'll be in Wakefield WYAS on Monday. I'll see what comes up!
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Hi Ian
Just using Google, I found something on the National Archives site that says Pick Over Gate was near Stansfield (1851 census)
Linda
Added - There's also a house for sale at 1 Pickover Gate, Butts Lane plus a map see www.mouseprice.com/property-information/ref-17863006
Hi
Just to add to Danuslaves Address Its full address Pickover Gate, Butts Lane, Horsfall, Millwood, Todmorden, West Yorkshire ( above Horsfall railway tunnel)
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Lower Smithy, Golden, Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire HX7-7HP
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Thanks for these very prompt and informative replies - they are really helping me to understand the geography of what seems like a complicated area. Since there were so many Horsfalls living in Stansfield, Langfield etc areas in the 18th and 19th centuries their address (as sometimes recorded in Wilson's register transcriptions) is proving important in tracing which were my Horsfalls.
By 1851 my own direct Horsfall ancestors had moved to farms in Lancashire (Little Marsden and Whitworth), though I'm sure they had left oodles of relatives back in Todmorden.
Thanks again - your expertise is much appreciated
Ian in Cornwall
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Glad to help :D
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Hi, Ian,
http://www.old-maps.co.uk/indexmappage2.aspx
There are lots of little farms, lanes and what seems pocket names areas at nearly every field corner/ lane bend around the Todmorden area on the 19th c (1800's) maps. So your are on the right track! Lancashire pre 1850 and after
Sawley abbey near Preston was Yorkshire till 1974
as below. Richmond in Yorkshire capital North Lancashire
Litchfield in Staffordshire was Capital of parts of Huddersfield (Holmfirth) in Yorkshire but a bits of Derbyshire as well.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/Carole_Clyde/newpage31.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocese_of_Chester
http://www.thornber.net/famhist/htmlfiles/topograp.html
http://www.thornber.net/england/htmlfiles/sawley.html
Sawley Abbey, Lancashire, England
Until 1974 the site was in Yorkshire but after the local government reorganisation it became part of Lancashire. Sources: Sawley Abbey, A Celebration of 850 ...
www.thornber.net/england/htmlfiles/sawley.html - Cached - Similar
Sawleyabbey is near Preston
Drives one nuts!!!!
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Hi dobfarm
Nice post - glad you're into this sort of thing. It certainly makes my head spin :D
Linda
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Hi Linda.
Best is I not really! (Ancestry) It was my neice in New Zeland who enrolled me as her Dad told her NOT INTERESTED! As I'm retired and live near local Libs. Reccy offices etc! Info searcher! as for trees my self- I cant get my head around them or my own! Yet I seem to be Full of info!!Archive knowledge that people on Roots wants!
Just got scratched -dragged through an edge backwards to get a grave photo for someone on Roots in Halifax who live in the south- Why She did my tree!
As said my Neice drove me Nuts! find info! I'm now in Limbo land!! I've NO Interest in Ancestry-----Never had
Dobby
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I've NO Interest in Ancestry-----Never had
In that case I'm even more impressed! Look on it as an exercise in keeping the grey matter working - isn't retirement wonderful :D :D
Linda
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Thanks for these very prompt and informative replies - they are really helping me to understand the geography of what seems like a complicated area. Since there were so many Horsfalls living in Stansfield, Langfield etc areas in the 18th and 19th centuries their address (as sometimes recorded in Wilson's register transcriptions) is proving important in tracing which were my Horsfalls.
By 1851 my own direct Horsfall ancestors had moved to farms in Lancashire (Little Marsden and Whitworth), though I'm sure they had left oodles of relatives back in Todmorden.
Thanks again - your expertise is much appreciated
Ian in Cornwall
Langfield farm is at Makinshole above Millwood Todmorden and Standsfield Hall and Standsfield is Todmorden
Little marden is over the hill at Nelson-Colne & Witworth over the other hill South of Todmorden above Rochdale
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I've NO Interest in Ancestry-----Never had
In that case I'm even more impressed! Look on it as an exercise in keeping the grey matter working - isn't retirement wonderful :D :D
Linda
Yep! Yanks! took over our firm back in 2000 and Waved Dollars about like leaves drop in the fall! Big Company Pension and Redundancy payments combind together. Me and my brother retired at 50 and Bro 56 left that factory like a bolt out of hell!*>>>> Still in a Daze of unreality 9 years on.
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I've been to Wakefield archives and booked a hour on a Film/Fiche reader
I have checked Ebenezer none conformist Bapt's chapel 1755-1775 Heptonstall ; l also tried
Todmorden same years - Nothing on any of Susan-James-Abraham-Sarah-Betty :-
Nothing on the Names 'Horsfall' dad Abraham.
Tried the Wilson Transcription Books and John 1755 bapt -Richard bapt -1758 -Philip 1774
Bapt's are all there in Wilsons book! but there are no other names of dad Abraham.
The Fiche is unreadable in a lot of Bapt's at Stone cross & Heptonstall Chapels 1755 to 1768 but improved 1769 onwards.
Having pulled a few strings I got to see the original Heptonstall & Stone cross Parish register book
for those year! It's in a very poor state full stop. There are lots of funny place names and
for some daft reason the entries are as following example
Blogs J'S (Little S top corner) S W'm Blogs Baptism Toytown Dec _-
All Hyphenated but puts Surname twice and this coupled with near faded/Mouse holes/Damp marks
very faint writing and Fancy scribble
This is in No way a Transcriptions by me and I disclaim anything other than it is only possible entries.
These seem to read as below
James Horsfall s of h'b( small) Horsefall Bapt March 30th 1760 Wad Hep
Suzan Horsfall D of A -- Horsfall bapt March 28th 1766 Wad Hep
Betty Horsfall d A Bapt July 12th 1765 wad Hep ( That all there is) ?
Sarah Horsefall od fb (No date number) March 1762 or 64 Wad --This was in a really poor state and had
to use a green Strove light torch across the page at an angle
A Hors--ll S A ba-t 10 --g 1770 wad - Make what you wan't of that
All I'll say is! No will argue! only You? or prove different! As Nobody is daft enough to attempt it only me! The unreadable!
Quote:_
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains no matter how improbable must be the truth?" ;- unquote- Sir Authur Conan Doyle
The GAP! RICHARD BAPT 1758* _ PHILIP BAPT 1774 >WHY? as above - Quote!
Dobby
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Hello Dave –
I can’t thank you enough for these transcriptions, and for taking the time and trouble to attempt to decipher what sound like almost illegible entries in the parish registers.
I suppose that, given the state of the records, we will never know for certain, but the entries you managed to find certainly sound as if they might be the records of my Horsfall ancestors which are not found in Wilson.
James Horsfall s of h'b (small) Horsefall bapt March 30th 1760 Wad Hep
[it is not impossible that h’b (superscript) = Ab = Abraham]
Suzan Horsfall D of A -- Horsfall bapt March 28th 1766 Wad Hep
[D of A = daughter of Abraham Horsfall?]
Betty Horsfall d A Bapt July 12th 1765 wad Hep
[d A = daughter of Abraham Horsfall?]
A Hors--ll S A ba-t 10 --g 1770 wad –[SA = son of Abraham?]
First of all, it’s interesting that ‘Wad’ appears at the end of each of these entries. I take this to mean that these children’s father lived in Wadsworth, Heptonstall (Wadsworth is now an area just to the east of Hebden Bridge). I know that Abraham Horsfall and his wife Martha lived at Pickovergate from at least 1774 (the Wilson record of Philip’s birth – father, Abraham, Pickovergate, Stansfield) – but there’s no reason why they shouldn’t have lived at Wadsworth before then. The earliest two records (from Wilson):
John (1755) – the father, Abraham, was a webster (weaver) of Eastfield.
Richard (1758) – the father, Abraham, was a webster of Stansfield.
The fact that all the names you found are names of Abraham’s ‘missing’ children adds weight to the supposition that they belonged to the same family. They are certainly all in the right timeframe.
Again – we may never know the truth, but we’ll regard it as a workable hypothesis that these records you were kind enough – and patient enough – to find are likely to refer to the children named by Abraham Horsfall in his will of 1807, but who are missing from Wilson’s list.
With thanks and best wishes
Ian
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Hi Ian
First I know you feeling of pre 1837 little info, too many common names BMDs after relative good census years -gro info. going to very poor info to grab onto.
These manki old registers-little info - Marriage clue of Banns marriage are hopless - though Licence marriage by Alligation do give age as mostley accurate! and a few names.
Abraham b 1755-75 marriage to Betty Brierly 1786 Heptonstall Looks a good bet! born about 1761 and even 1770 is Just in as my ancestor married his Step Aunty 36 at 14 years old (more 15) so anything possible there them days!*
The rest James ,Betty Susan and Sarah marriage. There are To many Marriages in general and bapts too other Parents.
Overseers records- Appenticeships- Landtax-Window tax-Tithe/Tides-Relief Rate for the poor and more - link to the exact place in bapts by elimination of others will help!* Bapt proving !!but the marriages by banns the most import need to go down the line of is just impossible unless there are Wills and they are in the census years as the 1790 maybe.
You are into Epistemology time and State in your tree a statement! like example below.
"This infomation is built on the best Epistemology information found and it is up to the reader of this! too judge! on information in this tree in respect of validity & accuracy or prove otherwise."
I'll keep an Eye out!
Dobby
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Ps Hi again Ian.
Sometimes the most obvious is blinded to the complicated reseachers want/looking for absolute poof! meaning your Will has the names of Abraham Horsfall seniors siblings and You know there parents! so the exact bapt years are not that important as the marriages and circa about baptism year! will do! Therefore put all your efforts on these marriages and census 1841c/51c to eliminate others on place of exact residence if alive in census years.
Forget your Bapts for now!...Marriages
Dobby
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Hi
Write to below
also put in the A2A search engine in the national archives
James Horsfall-(Horsefall-Horsfal)
find Court rolls 1796 Heptonstall
Horsfall (onits own)
Horsfall Heptonstall
Horsfall Todmorden Also other location you can think of.
John Goodchild Collection
Archon Code : 2494
Contact Details
Local History Study Centre,
Below Central Library,
Drury Lane
Wakefield
WF1 2DT
England
Tel: 01924 891871/298929
Website: http://www.wakefield.gov.uk/CultureAndLeisure/HistoricWakefield/Investigate/WhereToGo/JohnGoodchild/johngoodchildcollection.htm?pA=-1&pS=black&pW=-1
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Uncanny coincidence ? or your Ab/Horsfall
Hav'nt a bluming clue on this ???, found in National archives A2A enter Abraham Horsfall in search
Did he moved to Huddersfield (Relatives)1759ish and go back to Hep/todmorden 1773ish and the 1812/14 are only record date for document held and events are earlier. ???
Page of notes on the births of five children of the Horsfall family, removed from a book marked "Abraham Horsfall, Senr., Moldgreen, [his] Book" P144/28/1
logged in 1812/14?????
These documents are held at Bedfordshire and Luton Archives and Record Service
Contents:
Mold Green is in the parish of Kirkheaton near Huddersfield, Yorkshire - the connection with Lower Gravenhurst is unknown
You'll have no hair on your head left working this out :-\
I'll check Todmorden Bapts out 1755 -1775
glad to been of help!
Regards Dobby
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Sorry I haven't replied sooner - I've been away for a couple of days. Unfortunately work sometimes takes me away from this genealogical research.
I think the Huddersfield Horsfalls were another family altogether: I've looked at them before and can find no connection between my Todmorden Horsfalls and the Horsfalls in other parts of Yorkshire. Though it is possible that all the Horsfalls originated - way back - in Todmorden. There is apparently an area of Todmorden called Horsfall, and there is a Horsfall House, an old stone house whose picture someone sent me a while ago.
The link you sent for the 1796 Court Records is definitely worth following up: although James Horsfall was not an uncommon name, it was the name of Abraham's grandson, mentioned by name in his 1806/7 will - so James is likely to have been an adult at the time.
I think the next Horsall job for me is to make a list of all marriages involving Horsfalls with the names mentioned in Abraham's will, then to look at the baptisms to see how many children these marriages produced. There are patterns of names - Philip, for instance, turns up quite regularly in the later family story.
Thanks again for your interest and expertise
Ian
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Hi Ian,
Yes! Work comes first! Just got back from Halifax Library and on film I've looked at Todmorden Christ Church 1755-57 and St Mary 1755 up to 1760 when all the records went in Christ church register 1761 onwards. Sorry! to say! No Horsfall baptism! of (Fullstop)any first names (Child ) or any Fathers Names (Strange???)
Rastrick Abraham senior 1759 marriage a couple more of the missing 5 bapts of Abraham Marriage Hep 1755 FIT.There are two Bapts James of Abraham in Rastrick one 1755 and one 1760 -Yet one marriage 1759.
food for thought !
Good hunting**********************one day!
Dobby
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Sorry I haven't replied sooner - I've been away for a couple of days. Unfortunately work sometimes takes me away from this genealogical research.
I think the Huddersfield Horsfalls were another family altogether: I've looked at them before and can find no connection between my Todmorden Horsfalls and the Horsfalls in other parts of Yorkshire. Though it is possible that all the Horsfalls originated - way back - in Todmorden. There is apparently an area of Todmorden called Horsfall, and there is a Horsfall House, an old stone house whose picture someone sent me a while ago.
The link you sent for the 1796 Court Records is definitely worth following up: although James Horsfall was not an uncommon name, it was the name of Abraham's grandson, mentioned by name in his 1806/7 will - so James is likely to have been an adult at the time.
I think the next Horsall job for me is to make a list of all marriages involving Horsfalls with the names mentioned in Abraham's will, then to look at the baptisms to see how many children these marriages produced. There are patterns of names - Philip, for instance, turns up quite regularly in the later family story.
Thanks again for your interest and expertise
Ian
Hi Ian Just noticed this! in your repy?
Qu 1) James, Abraham --- Susan, Betty and Sarah! Names in Abraham Senior's Will did it say they were is Sons & Daughters or Grand children or mix of both?
2) The Girls Susan-Betty -Sarah! Could they be the Wives of Abraham Jr, John, Richard or James??
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Hi, I've been looking for the Family of my Ancestor Abraham Horsfall; all I know so far is that he was Married to Sarah Joysey (Jowsey) on 9th Feb 1785 at Tynemouth. He and Sarah lived at Morpeth Northumberland and had the Following children:
Mary 1787
Charlotte 1789
Abraham 1791
Isaac 1793
Mordin 1797
Now "Mordin" is a really unusual name and I wonder if anyone else has come across it before?
Charlotte married William Towers of Neasham North Yorks, and the names "Abraham", "Isaac" and "Charlotte" were used again and again in the Families of their Descendants, but not in the Towers family Prior to Charlotte marrying William.
I suspect that Abraham Horsfall originally came from Yorkshire and must have been born around 1750-67. There are no Horsfall families in Morpeth before his arrival.
Can anyone please enlighten me?
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I'm sorry that your Abraham Horsfall is not the same person as my ancestor - different wife's name and spent all his life in Todmorden. As far as I can make out in my researches, the surname Horsfall is most common in the Todmorden area (including Heptonstall and Halifax) and Huddersfield. Part of Todmorden bears the name Horsfall, and there is an old building called Horsfall House. You could try
Baptisms at the Chapels of Heptonstall and Cross Stone in the Parish of Halifax, Heptonstall 1594-1812, Cross Stone 1678-1837, ed. Douglas Wilson
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there is some information about pickover gate in the halifax antiquarian society papers and the horsfall family at the local library. if you look for the antiquarian society online should give you contact details to persue your query further. there is a historian called david glover who has a column in the halifax evening courier who may be able to help you.
T.
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Hello, Undertaker. Are you able to be more specific about whereabouts in the HAS papers you came across the references to Pickover Gate? I've been in touch, at your suggestion, with David Glover, who has been kind enough to trawl through the index of nearly a century's worth of volumes. He finds no mention of Pickover Gate. Best wishes I~N
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Hi there everyone :)
Could i just add a few thoughts about the scribbly writings in the area. Yes "Wad" is an abbreviation for Wadsworth but also there is an occupation sometimes abbreviated in the PR"s "Web" , this is an abbreviaton for a Webster , a type of Weaver*. This i am guessing could be easy to confuse with Wad as the two abbreviations for occupation and place of sometimes appear next to each other . I know they sometimes do in the Heptonstall St Thomas PR's.
Also i see Huddersfield is mentioned , but there was also an unconnected area called Hundersfield , around Blackstone Edge . Hundersfield took in parts of Todmorden, Walsden, Littleborough, Smallbridge and parts of Rochdale.
Edit .* Sorry , i missed that Dobby has already mentioned that a webster is a type of weaver