RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: denisekemp22 on Friday 07 August 09 15:44 BST (UK)
-
Sorry have not been on for a while but have found some more info on my grandmother, Helen Forbes or Bruce. I now think that she was born Helen Forbes and somehow taken the name Bruce when she had my father. She gave birth to my father at Oldmill Hospital (poorhouse) Aberdeen in 1933 and had 2 children prior to this date. She left hospital after 22 days and my father was kept in for a further 7 days. I managed to get a copy of the midwifery records and her age was given as 29 at this time, so asume that her year of birth would have been about 1903 ish. I am hoping that the other 2 children have had children of their own, and maybe they are doing the same as me and I just might find out more about my family. If anyone has any information regarding Helen Bruce/Forbes, I would be very interested.
Thanks
Denise
-
Hi Denise
I've seen your posts over recent months - frustrating search for you :-\
One thing that stands out is the wording of your father's birth cert - Helen Bruce, formerly Forbes. It is quite specific. I take it to read that Helen's maiden name was Bruce and she was previously (formerly) married to a Forbes. In the case of remarriages, for example, the woman's details would be written up as Mary Smith (second marriage), formerly Jones (first marriage), maiden surname Brown. However, there are no marriages showing anywhere on SP for a Helen Bruce to a Forbes, and the only Helen Forbes/ Bruce marriage is too early, in 1904...so happens in Aberdeenshire.
You say in previous posts that your father was brought up by family. Have you ever established any links to the Bruce (or Forbes) surname through this family line?
The fact that she was working as a domestic servant in Kincardine but your father was born in Aberdeen also makes me think that she came 'home' to have the baby. Maybe her other two children were also being taken care of by other family.
Monica :)
-
Hi Monica
Very frustrating indeed. I have only been able to find one Helen Bruce/Forbes death and that was in 1975 and her age was 88, I am assuming that its her. The death was registered by a Wm A Bruce in Dundee. I have searched for him and think he is one of 2 Wm's. One is William Ashley Bruce born 1920 and the other is William Anderson Bruce born 1922. I think I need to find out if one of them had Helen as a mother, if so, I need to track down his death cert and hope that it was one of his children who registerd it and try to get in touch with them. I'm hopeful that I will get more info on Helen Bruce/Forbes. Fingers crossed.
Denise
-
Given the age at death for this Helen, could she be the Helen who married in Aberdeenshire in 1904 I wonder (the Helen Forbes/Bruce marriage I mentioned showing on SP - no idea which is her maiden name unfortunately)?
Are the no clues from the family who brought up your father?
Monica
-
Hi Monica
That could be the marriage of Helen Bruce. She would have been17 in 1904. Will have a look on SP. The only connection between the woman who brought up my father was that his middle name Stott, was her maiden name. Dont we just love our families :-) Do you think that my plan to follow up on the Williams is feasible? Would appreciate your advice on this one.
Denise
-
Denise, have you and I PMed about this before (memory tired now, middle of school hols :P). These names seem familiar. I've just checked the marriage on SP for a Helen Forbes and x Bruce, the one from 1904, in Newhills Aberdeenshire, and I have already viewed it ::)
Helen Forbes, 18, domestic servant, living in Newhills, parents James and Margaret XXXstall. She married a John Charles Bruce, 23 farm servant, parents Robert and Jessie Connon. Do these names match the parents' details you have on her death cert?
This cannot be the mother of your father. She would have been c. 47/8 at the time of his birth in 1933. Not unheard of as we know today but quite unlikely :-\
If the woman that brought up your father had a maiden name of Stott, could she have been related to the father of your father I wonder. Quite often with illegitimate births, the child would be given the reputed father's surname as a middle name.
Monica
-
This looks to be the family of that Helen Forbes from 1891:
James Forbes 41, quarrier, b. Cluny, Abdnshire .
Margaret Forbes 32, b. Udny, Abdnshire
Maggie Forbes 8
James Forbes 6
Helen Forbes 4, Dyce
John Forbes 2
George Forbes 9 Months
Address: Smithy Croft, Dyce
Monica
-
Hi Monica
Think we did speak abouth this before. I seem to be going around in cirlces. It just seems impossible that I cant find out anything about Helen Bruce/Forbes and the only logical explanation is the marriage that you managed to find, but as you say she would have been 47/48 at his birth and on the midwifery register her age is given as 29. This is a mystery :'(
Denise
-
Are you anywhere near Edinburgh or Glasgow?
-
What did your father put down for his parents' details on his marriage cert? Also for his death?
Monica
-
Hi Monica
I am in Elgin which is about a 3 1/2 hour drive from Edinburgh. Dont know what is on my fathers marriage cert, will ask him.
Tks
Denise
-
I'm sorry Denise, I should have asked :-[ I didn't realise your father was still living. We normally stay of discussing living people with names, respecting privacy. Ignore that question re certs, your father will have told you everything he remembers so the marriage cert will not included any more info that he has told you already.
The reason for asking whether you are close to Edinburgh/Glasgow is to do with access to New Register House in Edinburgh or Glasgow Genealogy Centre (Park Circus). One of the really hard things of researching the period you are trying to do is that it is very hard to do this via Scotlands People. The cut off dates for images are going to impede your search. It is very expensive to be speculating on possilbe entries if you then have to pay £10 to order each certificate on this basis.
What you need is to spend a day at least at NRH in Edinburgh where you can view on line more modern certificates. This would let you view on line certificates past the cut off dates you have on SP. You could view numerous certificates in this way that may throw up some possible leads.
Another alternative in to visit a local Registry office. Have a look at this post www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369601.0.html Jim has included some details in particular of the Aberdeen office which would be much closer to you which is also another option.
Monica :)
-
Hi Monica
Thank you very much for that info. We have friends in Edinburgh which we visit quite frequently, so next time, prob October, I will do as you say and hopefully will get a bit closer to finding out more about Helen.
Tks
Denise
-
Hi Denise
Before your visit to NRH, you need to prepare! You need to make a booking prior to your visit and there is a booking fee.
Remember also to include in your searches name variants for Helen such as Hellen, Ellen and Nellie (there are a number of entries on SP for a Nellie Forbes or Bruce for example).
In the meantime, you could try the Aberdeen office as you may find you have full access there to similar info (I think Jim listed a phone number for them on that link that I posted).
Let us know how you get on and best of luck :) You need a break on this one ;)
Monica
-
Hi Denise
I have figured out your grandmother's birth but not as yet her death.
You know her age was 29 in 1933 and her name was Helen Bruce, formerly Forbes. This implies that she was known at that time as Helen Bruce but had been known previously as Forbes. No reference being made to her maiden name - suggests it's possible she had not been married but had simply changed her name for some other reason during her lifetime.
You also know there is a marriage between a Helen Forbes and a John Charles Bruce in 1904 - although this Helen is around 17/18 years older then your Helen.
BUT - what if the elder Helen is the mother of the younger Helen ??? Agewise it fits and may explain why the younger Helen's name had changed from Forbes to Bruce.
We know from the census in 1891 where the elder Helen's family are staying, and checking the 1901 census finds Helen a domestic servant at a farm in Kinellar and her family staying at Clintery Cottages, Newhills. Checking the marriage of Helen Forbes and John Bruce - we see that Helen's address in December 1904 is Clintery Cottages, Newhills also.
So now we need to see if there is a birth for a Helen Forbes prior to that marriage - which there is on 13th January 1904 - also at Clintery Cottages. Her birth is shown as illegitimate and there is no RCE naming her father. So either John Bruce was her father and her parents married almost a year after her birth or John Bruce was her step-father and she took his name.
The death of Helen Forbes/Bruce which you have in 1975 - what are her parents names from the death certificate - and was she married to John Charles Bruce ?
Regards
Susan.
-
Hi Monica
Thanks for the info for booking etc at NRH, will make sure I am well prepared. Its a pity that SP cant allow us more access to more recent births, marriages etc. And dont worry aboutmy father, he is alive and kicking and asking if I have got any furthere in my search. He asked me if I would like to do this about 15 years ago, but the children were still young and I judt didnt have the time. In hidsight, I should have started then as more of the older relations would have still been alive. but there you go...Thanks again for your help and I will let you know how I get on.
Denise
-
Hi Susan
Thank you for that. Its a pity that I have to get back to work :( but will check out the death cert and get back to you tonight.
Tks
Denise
-
I keep on trying to use the 'smillies' but they are not very healthy at the moment - keep on gettting the words rather than the symbols.
What I was trying to say, with lots of smillies, is that is a WOW Susan! Let's see if we can find some facts....!
Monica
-
You are spot on Susan
I am so chuffed for you (and your father!) Denise. Well done Susan, huge breath of fresh air and fresh eyes!!
Likely therefore her marriage would be after 1933 following the birth of your father (and the cut off date on SP for marriages unfortunately). But maybe here is where a visit to one of the Registrar offices would help.
Monica
-
I think the mother of Helen Forbes born c. 1887 in Udny was a Margaret Chrystal, parents George Chrystal and mother Mary Kirkton. She looks to have been born on 27 FEB 1859 in Udny, from IGI.
Monica
-
Hi Susan
Helen Forbes/Bruce was married to John Charles Bruce and her parents were James Forbes and Maggie Forbes ms Chrystal. Her death was registered by her son Wm A Bruce in 1975. So, this Helen would be my great grandmother?? This is good information, lots to mull over.
Tks
Denise
-
Searching the familysearch website I found the marriage of George Chrystal & Mary Kirton on 4th December 1856 in New Machar. Note the spelling,the following 5 children's births are in the I.G.I.; Margaret 27/02/59,Agnes 31/08/60,Barbara 07/08/65,George 22/4/1868 (all Udny) & John 06/02/70,Foveran. Under the spelling of Kirkton there are Mary,09/08/57 & Helen 15/08/62 both also Udny. Hopefully this will make searching the censuses & locating certificates easier.
flst
-
Hi flst
The Foveran bit is definately connected to the woman who brought up my father. Very interesting, thanks
Denise
-
Hi flst
Sorry to be so ignorant, but what is I.G.I. ;D
Denise
-
Hi Denise
The IGI is the International Geneological Index and can be searched for free on www.familyseach.org
They have most Scottish records up to around 1875, (although there are a few known instances of ommisions eg only listing the baptisms of females in a parish for several years)
Kirsty
-
James Forbes and Margaret Chrystal may have married in Aberdeenshire 1882, but I'm out of credits on SP so can't check.
-
Hi Kirsty
Thanks for that. Will check out the marriage of James Forbes and Margaret Chrystal
Denise
-
Hi Susan
I think that I have manged to find out my grandmothers death. Ithink it was 1989 in Elgin and her name was Thomson.
Denise
-
Hi Denise
Have you managed to see the certificate and see if it ties up with what you already know ? That was one of 2 possibles I saw on the SP indexes.
The other was Helen Bruce or Rose also with mother's maiden name Forbes, dying in Arbroath in 1980 aged 75.
Looks like you may be getting somewhere with this now.
Susan.
-
Hi Susan
Didnt see the one in Arbroath. Will get that one ordered up also. Thanks for that.
Denise
-
Hi Denise,
I know this thread has been inactive for a long time, but thought I’d post just in case you’re still looking for info.
Helen Forbes/Bruce was my great-grandmother, so please do get in touch if you’re still using this site.
Tanya