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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: buttercup on Thursday 06 August 09 08:21 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
i've got a few burning name questions to ask - and i think the more i think about them i get more confused, frustrated and the sense that i must be missing somethign so obvious!
Anyway!
MARTHA - i know its a name in its own right, I've heard and seen it used as Matty for short - that's understandable.
Can a MARTHA also be known as MARY?? On another post of mine (see Lancashire board) i've gotten a census return in which the person whom i know ot be Martha is listed as Mary... are these two very different people or did she have a sudden urge to change her name come census night! ::) Can Martha be known as anything else?
CISSIE - after a bit of google i'm led to believe this is a short form of Cecilia? Cissie can also be used as apet name for sisters??
Can any other name be known as Cissie?? A Cissie listed with the said Mary above seems to disappear - no death that i cna see, no marriage or simply no presence! And i have tried variations of Cecilia unless i've missed it somewhere!
AGNES - am wondering, and it may sound silly, but can it be known as Ann?
Confused...
Would love to hear peoples responses!
Jen :)
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No idea on Martha as Mary, but I had an aunt Elizabeth who was known as Cissie - an established short form it seems.
Agnes can indeed be Ann. According to Bill Bryson's book on Shakespeare - Ann Hathaway was known as Agnes, the G was silent in those days and the two names were regarded as interchangeable. Chris
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According to "First Name Variants" by Alan Bardsley and "The Oxford Book of English Christian names" Martha and Mary are separate names, but Agnes and Ann can be variants.
Cissie, however can be anything at all. In my own family Cissie turned out to be Joan, and "Cis" was Ann. I've seen a thread somewhere, which I now can't find, where someone asked about this name and got a huge number of different answers! I suspect that sometimes it was just short for "Sister".
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I know that in Scotland names are interchangable in ways that they are not elsewhere. This is a good site for some examples:
http://www.whatsinaname.net/
I thought I vaguely remember Martha/Mary being interchangable somewhere but I must have been dreaming because I can't find any mention of it.
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I also have a Rosina who was known as 'Cissie' ::)
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Hi,
Do you have Martha/Mary's birth? I had a Charles on the census who became Samuel on the next one. Turns out he was born Charles Samuel.
Brie
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Apart from Cissie as a pet name or for Cecilia there is also Cicely and Cecily.
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In Scotland Agnes can also be known as Nan,Ann or Nancy.
I have a great aunt Ciss (Cissie) her real name was Cecilia.
Carol
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Hi Jen
When people filled in their census returns 100 or more years ago, they had no idea that we were going to be using them for research. In fact they were probably told that the contents would never be made public!
In many cases they could have been illiterate, or semi-literate, and like a lot of people nowadays, not bothered about whether the information they gave was accurate or not. They would put down whatever the person was known as, regardless of what they had been registered at birth or baptised - and these aren't always the same.
In addition, a lot of returns would have been filled in by men and (sexist as this is) how many RootsChatters know men who would be pushed to tell you whether their wives have a middle name, never mind what it is :D
My Dad had 1 sister, 1 wife and 2 daughters and in the heat of the moment would often run through all our names before hitting on the right one (and his sister lived 50 miles away).
I tend to use all the information given on each certificate or census and weigh up the probability of it being the same person. Of course you risk following up a wrong lead occasionally, but very few of us can be absolutely sure that all the research we have done is 100% accurate.
There has recently been another thread on how much 'proof' you need (or can expect).
Go with what you find, and when searching for new stuff use all the variations you are aware of. Oh and don't make assumptions. I had always assumed that Frank was short for Francis, but there are many Franks in BMD and census records.
And finally - I once knew someone who was always known as Biddy. Her given name was Jessie :D :D
Linda
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I have a 3x gt grandmother who changed her name from Bridget to Maria in her middle age. I only know it's the same woman and not a 2nd wife, because she lived in Scotland so all the extra details on her & her husband's death certificates match the original person.
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I too find this interchangeability, even apparent adoption of or being brought up by names completely removed from the given, birth name a real PITA at times.
Lady on the left? Mary Elizabeth. aka " Polly ". Don't ask me how they managed That one!
Uncle Fred was born Thomas. Uncle Bill was Roy. Uncle George still is Frederick, though I can't imagine he'd even turn round if ye called him Fred! Aunty Pip? God knows! I could go on and on.
Why? Why call a kid William, on his birth certificate, then call him Jacob, to his face for the rest of his life? I seriously wonder if half of them even knew their real names.
Oh and Danuslave / Linda; Yeppers. Frank / Francis. I too have even just recently fallen foul of that one! :-\
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Hi Steve
Why call a kid William, on his birth certificate, then call him Jacob, to his face for the rest of his life
I wonder if some children just got named to please a grandparent (or the uncle with the money :D), but were then known as what the parents really wanted?
I think there are also instances of children 'renaming' themselves while they are little and it sticking for life.
Fortunately, the small girl I knew who called herself 'Bonk' grew out of it :D :D
Linda
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PMSL! ;D
Classic
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My great aunt Ciss was Mary Ellen.
(God knows who Ciss Breslin was! I certainly don't!)
Polly (believe it or not) was a common pet name for Mary.
eadaoin
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My Grandma, whose given name was Constance Mary, was Cissie as a child, Mary for at least 10 of her working years ( there was already a Constance at the factory) and Connie the rest of her life. Her mother, Mary Catherine, was known as Polly or Pol most of her life, except when she was sometimes called Cath. My Grandfather on the other side was Cyril, but most people called him Sid. I won't even get started on the lot that changed their first names for every census (there's a Scavenger Hunt in that one)... :P
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What is a Scavenger Hunt?? I keep seeing them posted but don't really know what's involved.
Linda
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What is a Scavenger Hunt?? I keep seeing them posted but don't really know what's involved.
Hi Linda,
Here you go .. this should explain what you need to know :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,358572.0.html
Kind regards,
Pels.
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Thanks Pels :D :D
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Wasn't there an Empress Elizabeth of Austria who was known as Cissi?
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I too find this interchangeability, even apparent adoption of or being brought up by names completely removed from the given, birth name a real PITA at times.
Lady on the left? Mary Elizabeth. aka " Polly ". Don't ask me how they managed That one!
Uncle Fred was born Thomas. Uncle Bill was Roy. Uncle George still is Frederick, though I can't imagine he'd even turn round if ye called him Fred! Aunty Pip? God knows! I could go on and on.
Why? Why call a kid William, on his birth certificate, then call him Jacob, to his face for the rest of his life? I seriously wonder if half of them even knew their real names.
Oh and Danuslave / Linda; Yeppers. Frank / Francis. I too have even just recently fallen foul of that one! :-\
LOL your lot sound like mine!
I have the 1911 Cencus for my nanas family - theres only ONE person on it has their correct name, the rest have family nicknames! ............. Luckily for me the only one with the right name is MY nana lol .........
Heaven help anyone looking for James (Jimmy), John (Jack) Edith (Eddie - yeah that ones going to be easy to find!) Margaret (Maggie) Charles (Charlie), Thomas (Tom)............ Neice Margaret (Mags), Caroline (Carrie) his mother in law Margaret (Mary).............
OK the names ARE mainly familiar nicknames, butout of the entire family only Nana got her given name and if you dont put HER name in the search you cant find the others!
On the other side I have a Gt-grandmother who was Born Planceana Mary, but hated her name & used Blanche Mary all her life, her daughter didnt know her real name she died!
HER father was named James Henry, as was his father & Grandfather, and they ALL used James Henry, James or Henry at random throughout their lives, I have to take an educated guess which one id which on records cos theres no pattern to it!
My Nana was christened Doris ............ but always called "Doll" or "Dolly"
My Grandad was John, ................ but known as Jack
One of my Neighbours is Named Geoff ............. but everyone calls him Sam, LOL no idea why
lol and another is named Sydney Mary............. but called Mary at work cos her employer refused to believe a woman could be called Sydney!
Gaille
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I just thought, my Nana has a Childhood friend we all grew up calling "Auntie Cissy" ........... Her REAL name was Frances.
Gaille
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Oh goody!
So it seems I'm not going mental after all! ;)
And Martha being Mary is perfect - just to add i do not have her birth certificate wasn't really planning on getting it either as shes not a direct relative, but am considering getting her marriage to confirm fathers name!
Cissie and Elizabeth?! Goodness i never realised just how many meanings 'cissie' can have! But again scored well with Elizabeth! The 1891 has Cissie's mother as Elizabeth and there is a birth later that year for Elizabeth - the said Cissie.
Agnes and Ann - it was a hunch i had but confirmation is always a good feeling!
I had immense fun reading these replies, Rootschat never ceases to amaze me one can always guarantee they'll learn something new, have a laugh along the way or both! ;D
And speaking of interchangeable names my aunt has always been known to me as Toni - was a surprise to find out her real name is Maria Antoinetta! Go figure!
And my mum always goes by her second name....
Honestly! Why name a child if only to call it something else!
Jen :)
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Martha can be known as Pattie (honest) I have to of those
I have two Cissy's - they were called Annie and Sarah!
And according to my mother my grandfather would sometime call his wife Mary 'Poll'
I also have a Sally in the tree, who was baptised as Sally, but also got recorded once as Sarah in a Census
I think sometime people who have names that look like nicknames, so they are wrongly 'corrected'
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My mum was actually christened Cissie, with no middle name to fall back on and she loathed it!!
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another is named Sydney Mary............. but called Mary at work cos her employer refused to believe a woman could be called Sydney!
I think that is the female spelling - but when my Grandad was born in 1899, he was called Sydney George. They had already had a Sidney George in 1896 who had died young.
Somewhere between the 1901 & 1911 census Grandad was change to Sidney George and never looked back :D
Linda
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I know a Cissie whose real name is Priscilla ...
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None of the Cissies in my family tree were actually called Cissy.
I'm pretty certain that in all my cases, Cissy was short for sister, as they were the only girls in the families.
I've got a Hilda Florence (my mother's aunt) who was always known as Bob or Bobby. Apparently it derived from her having her hair in a bob as a child, and the name stuck. I only found out her real name when I found her immigration documents to USA/Canada by looking up her husband. ;D
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My Dad's mum was born Mary Matilda Edith Corner and was known as Doll all her life. fortunately her dad put the right name on the census.
Bazza
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My F-I-Laws lot drove me mad.
Is Mum`s name was Mary but always chose to be called Maggie .
His brother we were led to believe was Joe turned out to be David.
Another went from Toby to Frank.
A sister May was Ellen.
That was JUST the christian names.
They changed their surname like the weather ???.
I discovered all of this when doing the family tree & getting Certs
Bet Dear F-I-Law was looking down laughing.
Omega
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Another went from Toby to Frank.
:-\ Isn't that just a tad understandable ....?
I mean; " Toby " :-X
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My mother in law born in Scotland in 1904 was named Barbara, that is until she went to school when she became Ethel, the name by which she was known for the rest of her life even by her husband. The reason she gave was that on her first day at school the school mistress already had three other girls named Barbara in her class and for whatever reason decided that she should be called Ethel. If the teacher made a habit of doing this and some of the other children continued to use their new names later in life it could pose a problem for future family historians to ponder over.
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My dad grew up thinking his name was William Elgin Alexander only to find out when he applied for a passport at the age of 57 that his real name was Alexander William Elgin. He was called Jack throughout his life. His brother, Stewart, was known as Shine, his sister, Lillian, was Bubbles, Helene was Babs, Beulah is Bunny and Joan is Dodo. I just found out this year what their real names were. It's hard to research when you only know them by their nicknames. lol
Sue
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ANd it seems the English language isn't the only one to change names!
My great Aunt was always known to me as Aunty Kooka (it's spanish so it may sound strange) but only earlier this year when i scratched the surface of my Peruvian tree did i find out her real name was Maruja.
and another great aunt, sister of the above aunt, was known as aunty Henny, only her real name was Genara...
The eyes roll don't they! ::)
At least i asked now and mum was happy enough to provide quick answers! ;D
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At least i asked now and mum was happy enough to provide quick answers!At least i asked now and mum was happy enough to provide quick answers!
Thus reinforcing the advice to ask older living relatives everything you can think of :D
Linda
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What about Mally? Maybe that's a Yorkshire thing - I always thought it was "short" for Mary, but could it be Martha as well, or instead?
Anne
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My great grandmother Violet was always known as Cissie for some reason, maybe their sisters just gave them that name.
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My Dad's mum was born Mary Matilda Edith Corner and was known as Doll all her life. fortunately her dad put the right name on the census.
Bazza
We had a Dolly but she was actually christened that, we had a Teddy as well.
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At least i asked now and mum was happy enough to provide quick answers!At least i asked now and mum was happy enough to provide quick answers!
Thus reinforcing the advice to ask older living relatives everything you can think of :D
Linda
One needs to ask earlier than later.......my uncle and I have been dealing with mothers with dementia.
Sue
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I'm still young (not yet 30!)... my mum is still very much with me.
Good thing i got interested now rather than later when future generations will ask me questions!
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I'm still young (not yet 30!)... my mum is still very much with me.
Good thing i got interested now rather than later when future generations will ask me questions!
I wish i was interested in it a few years back, my great grandmother died in 2001
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ANd it seems the English language isn't the only one to change names!
My great Aunt was always known to me as Aunty Kooka (it's spanish so it may sound strange) but only earlier this year when i scratched the surface of my Peruvian tree did i find out her real name was Maruja.
and another great aunt, sister of the above aunt, was known as aunty Henny, only her real name was Genara...
The eyes roll don't they! ::)
At least i asked now and mum was happy enough to provide quick answers! ;D
Maruja is a nickname for Maria.