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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Boongie Pam on Tuesday 01 March 05 12:14 GMT (UK)
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Hi All,
I've got a name question. In Ireland are Bridget and Margaret ever used as variants of each other?
I ask because I have an oddity.
In 1841 & 1851 in Troqueer Kirkcudbright, Scotland I have a family Thomas and Bridget FALLEN both born in Ireland somewhere with their kids. One of which is my direct Michael FALLEN (later FALLON).
Michael is born in Scotland but can find no birth , 1st marriage or death certs. His 2nd marriage (1899) lists his mother as Margaret FALLEN nee LONG. His family (from the 1st marriage) follows the Scottish naming pattern - for the child which should be named after Michael's mother she is named Margaret in 1866.
So these are the two pieces of evidence I have to suggest Bridget = Margaret. Michael was born just 2 months before the 1841 census so a re-marriage is possible but unlikely. I thougt maybe Bridget died when Michael was young maybe between 1851 & 1855 and he was brought up by a Margaret as I can't find Thomas or Bridget in 1861 or deaths therefore assume they pre-date statutory registration.
Anyone got any thoughts?
Thanks in advance,
Pam
;D
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This one caught my attention as I have a similar situation, though mine was in Suffolk in the 1600s. Christopher RANSON was married first to Elizabeth, the mother of his children. He then married Margaret. No burial has been found for Margaret. No 3rd marriage has been found. However, when his will was written his wife was named as Bridget. Admittedly he was an old man, and had time to remarry, but no trace has been found despite mush searching!
After reading this post I wonder if the two names are used interchangeably. Would be interested in the thoughts of others.
Chris :-\
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According to the book I have here on names, Bridget has never been interchangeable with Margaret. St Bridget (or St Bride) of Kildare died in 523 AD. The name was also popular in Scotland in the form of Bride where it gave rise to the place-name Kilbride, meaning cell of St Bridget. The name derives from a Celtic word meaning strength.
Margaret on the other apparently derives from the Persian, meaning "child of light." There seem to be a huge number of diminutives and variations around the British Isles, but none of them resembles Bridget or Bride.
You sure do have a puzzle there, Pam. ???
Nell
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It is not uncommon in my husband's family for people to be called something other than their originally given name. For example, my mother-in-law's name is Margaret but she has always been called Elinor.
Perhaps it is an example of this?
Sarah
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I've also got a few like that but these are all records or inferences which tell me "what she was known as".
Why would they fill out the census differently to how her son knew her? That's the bit that is confusing me.
It's further confused by the Fallen surname it is invariably transcribed wrongly so I can't find Michael's siblings marriages or deaths either - these would tell me her name but no joy as yet.
The search continues. Until I know her name I can't see any way into early Irish records.
Thanks all,
Pam
;D
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Hi
I agree with the previous comment that the two names are definately not interchangable.
The most usual old Irish version of the spelling is Brigid (as in St Brigid of Kildare) this is also sometimes shortened to the gaelic 'Bríd' or Breda.
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I also agree that the names Bridget and Margaret are never interchangeable as variants of each other.
You say Michael was born just 2 months before the 1841 census, so presumably you have his baptism record?
Could Michael's father have firstly married a Margaret, then her sister Bridget ?Or vice versa?!
Re. possible mistakes with names and info on censuses:
I have a Mark, wrongly transcribed as 'Mary'; the original baptismal registers had to be consulted to reveal the error.
In the 1901 Irish census, I have a family with a 'daughter' who appears in no other lists of the children. Turns out it should have read 'granddaughter' !
There was me thinking this ancestor of mine had a sudden spurt very late in life to suddenly produce another daughter, his wife already dead, when the previous 12 children were by that time all grown up and emigrated!
Cheers
Mags
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Hi Mags,
No I have no birth record becasue it was in Scotland. Stat reg started in 1855 and teh Catholic records are few and far between. In Troqueer where he was born the records are intermingled with the regular Cof S records but nothing there.
When I originally posted I'd lost this family after 1851 (except for Michael) but I have since found them again. In Haltwhistle of all places?
Now an added contention that makes me think The Bridget I see in the census is the same person as Margaret that Michael declares is his mother.
In 1855 Catherine Fallen has a child with her husband Patrick Reily details in the post below.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,77477.0.html
So in 1841 we have Bridget but no relationship. In 1851 we have Bridget as wife to Thomas and kids Catherine, Michael & Margaret. In 1855 we have Catherine's child born and registered by grandmother Bridget. That links - though still room for doubt, Bridget pre Michael (as Catherine's mother) and post Michael (census) as the mother of this family.
It is quite odd.
One change to the info in my original mail. She is LANG not LONG - or so I think.
Thanks for the interest,
P ;D
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Hi Pam
Did you ever resolve:- " I've got a name question. In Ireland are Bridget and Margaret ever used as variants of each other"
My Greatgrandmother's name is Margaret. On the 1901 Irish census I assumed she had died and my Greatgrandfather had remarried Bridget - a nurse. My Greatgrandmother Margaret ( a nurse) is on the 1911 census at the same family address, so obviously Margaret & Bridget are the same.
Seems funny we have both come across this in Ireland?
Cheers
Mike
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Hello all!
Just stumbled across this fascinating thread. I wish I could definitively tell you that Margaret converts to Bridget, though I haven't seen that.
There is a book of roughly 30 pages called A Rose By Any Other Name by Judith Wight Eccles that discusses some of the more regular conversion possibilities.
In my own family my Grandmom had a brother named Denis who was called Bob. In the course of researching the townland (southwest Cork) I discovered another family with a Denis (in the 1901 census) called Bob (in the 1911 census). When I told my 87 year old aunt about it over the phone, I asked "sound familiar?" and she agreed. Turns out the wife in that family was Grandmom's dad's sister.
In Grandmom's dad's family there may have been a Jeremiah called William, but I haven't conclusively linked the two names yet. That is a bit of a stretch.
I am starting to wonder if some sloppy or cursively written Latin forms in a baptismal record could have been responsible for the switch. I can tell you from my experience transcribing tithe applotments that Bartholomew can be mistaken for Patrick; Denis for Daniel; Alexander for Aloysius, Mortimer for Murtagh, etc. Many factors come into play, is the name abbreviated, is the initial letter well-formed, partly faded, and so forth. I haven't compared Bridget and Margaret in the baptismal registers, but I can see they both have "r" then a "get" . Margaret is often shortened to Margt which can also look like Mary, depending on who wrote it. You would think the "d" in Bridget would stand out but I've seen them practically disappear in the middle of a word, such as "Cadogan."
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While I can't see any connection between the names Bridget and Margaret
I wonder if it could still be the same person.My great grandmother Bridget
variously appeared on her childrens baptisms as Christina Dinah and Dina.
I think maybe her actual name was Bridget but may have had the second
name Christina and hence the family nickname Dinah or Dina and that as
infants were usually brought for baptism by Godparents when baptised a
few days after birth it would be the Godparents who gave the family details.
I wonder if this could be the same in your case.
Anne
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My step-great grandmother was called Bridget by her family (including my mother), and she's Bridget on her marriage certificate, but in the censuses her name is Mary. ???
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Call it serendipity...
Was watching an old "Alfred Hitchcock Presents" episode on Lizzie Borden (the Fall River Massachusetts women who is believed to have murdered her parents).
The household had a maid from Ireland named Bridget Sullivan, but the family called her "Maggie."
Scroll down to the info about Bridget Sullivan, from Beara:
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/CrimeLibrary/CastofCharacters.htm
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Hi there,
Noticed this is an old post so don't know if you have found your answer.
I was also looking for a Margaret who is married to John. Found John
and his wife is Bridget and all the kids are correct.
Then something from my past general knowledge came to me.
Not being religious but was it not true that no matter what your
real name was, if you were Catholic , you had to also take on a
Saints name as well?
Only thing I can think of as to why Saint Bridget becomes Margaret or Mary.
regards Sandymc
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Never seen these names as Interchangeable, Margaret is usually Peggy, or Peg, in its foreshortened use, while Bridget, is usually Bridy, or Biddy, there are however instances where a Child could be named Bridget at Birth, and Baptised Margaret, occasionally the second name is used throughout that persons life, rather than the birth name, Ben
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Interesting question. I too have pondered about this. Do you think Margaret would have been a pet name if the child had Bridget as a first name the same as the mother? Have seen many Bridgets also recorded as Delia, as the mother and daughter had same first name Bridget, so the daughter was known as Delia.
I'm having a problem with Judith and Julia. Can anyone tell me if these were interchangeable in Ireland say the period of 1840 to 1870?
Diggie
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I have a Judith who calls herself Julia on the 1901 Census in Westmeath. Her grand daughter was called Julia so I don't think Judith was used much or was only used by the priest.
Just thinking now is Judith Latin for Julia?
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Bidelia/Bedelia is a form of Bridget and is often the reason for girls named Bridget being known as Delia (although I know of several Irish Delias who were actually Adelias!).
Judith and Julia are separate names.
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Judith and Julia are separate names.
I agree, Aghadowey ... but
according to Patrick Woulfe (1923), Sheila/Síle (Cecilia) and Siobhán(Joan) were at various times anglicised as Julia, Judy, (and all possible variations of Joanna/Joan .... ... )
we reckon our Julia born 1870s (called herself Sheila in 1920s and then reverted) is probably called after her grandmother Judith.
regards eadaoin
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Oh eadaoin the Julia in my family did the same, her children still call her Sheila, but my gran and therefore all of my family called her Julia.
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Just had a read about Catholic "law".
When the children were being Christened, if the Priest thought that the name of the child
was not very Christian they had to put a Saints name as the middle name. This was
written in the Church book but didn't have to be put on the birth certificate if the parents
didn't want it.
It says they would suggest a Saints name.
If say a Catholic woman married a Protestant man but were married in a Catholic church.
This also applied to their children having a Saints name.
This strict law changed after 1904 and could be adhered to or not after that time.
Hence the Bridget from Margaret. It is not a derivative its added to.
regards Sandymc
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The Irish Catholic custom of having a child baptised with the name of a saint was used even in the 1950s and possibly later. However, Margaret is a saint's name as is Bridget so no reason why one could not be used on its own.
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With regard to Judith and Julia, is it possible that Judith is the formal name for Julia ? I have someone in my family who was always known as Julia but on her childrens baptism records she is down as Judith - on most of the records bar two, where Julia was recorded. As the lady in question had quite a lot of children, I have to search for records under Julia and Judith, and I am also finding a lot of mis - spellings of surnames too!
I came to the conclusion, that the priest put down the mothers formal birth name, for his parish records despite what she might have been known in everyday life.
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Just to put another twist to changing names.
I always hated my first name and when I got to working at 15 years old I
told everyone I was taking my middle name as I didn't like my first one.
I have done that for over 50 years.
Apart from my close family and people who went to school with me no one
knows what my first name was and my real middle name is what everyone knows
me as.
regards Sandymc
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With regard to Judith and Julia, is it possible that Judith is the formal name for Julia ? I have someone in my family who was always known as Julia but on her childrens baptism records she is down as Judith - on most of the records bar two, where Julia was recorded. As the lady in question had quite a lot of children, I have to search for records under Julia and Judith, and I am also finding a lot of mis - spellings of surnames too!
I came to the conclusion, that the priest put down the mothers formal birth name, for his parish records despite what she might have been known in everyday life.
Yes, it's quite likely a clergyman or official would have used a person's proper name. However, Judith and Julia are completely separate names although it possible they were used interchangeably (like Edward/Edmund amongst Irish families and even Patrick/Peter)
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My family were very rigid in using the naming tradition of first son and daughter after paternal grandparents and second after maternal grandparents. However all 4 of the first children in my family are known by their 2nd/other names. My fathers mother was Ellen and all my dads 10 brother and sisters christened their first/second daughter Ellen, but I have cousins known as Helen, Helena, Eileen and Mary. Only the Mary appears as a second name on offical forms. The others are not recorded anywhere on offical records e.g. birth or marriage certs, but their children know them as nothing else and I was recently at a family wedding and Eileens (Ellen) daughter gave her mothers name as Eileen when she married. I know these names are not too different but we have lots of others e.g. Margaret known as Edel, Margaret was the Grandmother, Edel was a popular saint at the time in our area because of a local woman called Edel who was beatified around that time. There are indeed a lot of Edels around our area the same age as our Edel, I wonder how many of them were actually babtised Edel ??? ???
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Yes, it's quite likely a clergyman or official would have used a person's proper name. However, Judith and Julia are completely separate names although it possible they were used interchangeably (like Edward/Edmund amongst Irish families and even Patrick/Peter)
I thought it a strange name when I saw Judy as a name around 1880s in Mayo- it just didn't seem to fit somehow.
We have just found that my husband's grandmother Julia was registered and baptised as Joanna - several descendants are named Julia after her!
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Just to put another twist to changing names.
I always hated my first name and when I got to working at 15 years old I
told everyone I was taking my middle name as I didn't like my first one.
I have done that for over 50 years.
Apart from my close family and people who went to school with me no one
knows what my first name was and my real middle name is what everyone knows
me as.
regards Sandymc
I tried to do that when I went to college but in reverse I wanted to use my first name as I am known by my second name. Unfortunately there were too many people that I kept meeting that already knew me and it was too confusing so I didn't stick with it! Glad to see it worked for someone.
M
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Recognize this is an old post but want to mention that this may indeed have been the case.
I recently came across a baptismal entry made in Canada in 1849.
In the register the margin lists the number of the baptism and name, while the body has a narrative that lists dates, parents, sponsors, and other information.
In this case the margin shows Bridget O'Brien while the commentary states Margaret O'Brien.
I also recall some instances Bridget and Margaret appeared to refer the same child in different censuses. I originally attributed this to the various accents, dialects, and languages in the area at that time (French, English, Scot and Irish Gaelic).
Note that the above birth was during the time of the Great Potato Famine, when many Irish came to Canada. Since emigrants from the same region of Ireland tended to arrive and settle in the same area, it could well be that only a small region of Ireland interchanged these names.
Also, with reference to earlier speculation in this thread that it could relate to needing a saint's name, both Margaret and Bridget (Brigit) are saints names. Brigit lived in the 1300's and Margaret about 300 years earlier.
and the last name of the Parish Priest was Ryan.
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I haven't read all the posts but Bridget being Margaret is a bit odd in any language.
I can see Bridget being Bridie or Margaret being Maggie so my thought is one was a forename & the other a middle name which was changed round?
Annie
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I have the exact same problem !
I can see 3 x great grandmother on census of 1841 as Margaret, in the workhouse in 1847, her husband is widowed on census of 1861 (no trace of family on 1851 census). I can find death entry for Bridget in the right area in 1847 (after discharge from workhouse) with correct age - so dates and location match up. Their daughter (2 x great grandmother) is called Bridget so maybe a family nick name. This is all in Strand area of London but Margaret and husband Michael are on 1841 census as Irish - which is the family link we were expecting to find. Can't find any of them in the Irish records though (but I was looking for Margaret not Bridget - LOL)
If only our ancestors could have thought ahead for our sakes and been more consistent !
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Hello and welcome to Rootschat Suzy.
If you would like to open a topic on your family, you can ask a moderator (click on report to moderator) to move your post.
Alternatively, you might want to just start a new topic with names etc so that people could see if they can help.
Best wishes
Heywood
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My problem is the name Jeremiah. I have several instances where a Jeremiah appears to have been listed as James.
For instance in the marriages of 2 daughters of my 2x gt grandmother's brother Jeremiah Wallace, in one daughter's marriage her father is listed as Jeremiah and in the other marriage as James. Both marriages took place in 1853 in the same church. Their father died a few months later the same year and left property to both daughters.
This is not the only instance and I wondered if there was a reluctance to use the name Jeremiah as it is associated with bad news.