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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: Brenda on Tuesday 04 August 09 04:28 BST (UK)
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I really need some help to clear up the muddle I have got into re HELEN LOAG.
On her marriage cert to Robert McCracken [ son of John McCracken & Elizabeth Gibbon ] 10/06/1910 it states: Helen Loag, age 20 ,of Gartuck St Glasgow, parents Samuel Loag & Mary Ann Muir Murray.
The 1891 census shows her at Cadder with Samuel Loag & Mary Ann Muir Murray,[ age 8 months.]
Her death cert [16/03/1952 gives parents names as above ,however .... I have found a birth record for her [28/07/1890 ] Nellie Caw Loag or Smith. Mother Mary Martin Loag wife of William Smith...who she declares is NOT the father of the child and that she has had no communication from him since 1889??
Can anyone help straighten this out for me please?
I'm thinking that perhaps Samuel & Mary adopted her? If so it changes my husband's genealogy line somewhat ???
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Hello Brenda,
I've searched poorhouse applications for this family before for somebody who enquired at TalkingScot - was it you? Unfortunately not all the previous posts there are up and running yet but hopefully they will be soon.
I'm afraid I don't think Nellie's birth was ever resolved properly but I do still have the poorhouse notes and will post them later today after work.
Regards,
Annette
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Have you searched for a Mary Martin Loag or Smith on the 1891 census?
Perhaps she is Samuels sister and he brought up the child with his wife?
Do you have a marriage record for Samuel?
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Hi All
I think Sancti is on the right track. Given the names, likely as Sancti suggest, that Mary Martin Loag (Smith) was Samuel's sister.
You probably have Samuel and Mary Ann Muir Murray's marriage cert. Were his parents Samuel L and Mary Martin who married in 1859? Amongst other children, you have a son Samuel b. 1868 (a first Samuel b. 1866 died likely) and a daughter Mary Martin Loag b. 1864. The marriage cert for Mary Martin Loag and William Smith will let you confirm the link back to this family.
Monica :)
Added: Samuel Loag, in 1891, shows as born c. 1869 in Glasgow so would fit with the above scenario. There is also a death showing for a Mary Loag/Smith b. 1865 in 1940 Glasgow which could be related (likely marriage in 1883 in Glasgow).
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Methinks a chap named 'Caw' could perhaps be the father. If anyone has Anc. could they look up a male Caw aged 40 , Cadder, in 1891 census. (only male bet. 20 and 50 I think ,my age parameters on S.P.). and what the address is.
Also what was the re. dist. for Nellies birth?
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Well spotted tootsiepie :) Confusing entry though on Ancestry but the names are tantalising ;D
Hugh B Caw 40, Railway Storesman , b. Perth
Mary Caw 47 b. Glasgow
David Caw 6
William Caw 4
Mary M Caw 2
Mary Loag 26, step d? b. Glasgow
Address: Moodiesburn, Cadder Eastern District
First thought. I wonder if the Mary Caw is the Mary Martin who married Samuel Loag in 1859 but she looks too young (unless she lost some years along the way ::)).
There is a marriage between a Mary Martin and a Hugh Caw in 1882 in Glasgow....
Monica
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Nellie's birth in 1890 shows in St Rollox.
Monica
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There is a death of a Samuel Loag in 1880 in Glasgow (born c. 1836)...could this be Mary Martin's first husband and then she re-married in 1882 a Hugh Caw?
Monica
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I think you've got the right family , Monica. Mary married William Smith in 1883, and so I wonder if these younger children are really Smiths..and Marys reverted to her maiden name. (Speculation at this point), and her mother is bringing up children while young Mary works.
Maybe she just named young Nellie with the middle name 'Caw' out of respect.
The other option is not quite so respectable.
I'd favour 1st option, as she is living in Hugh Caw's house (post Nellie's birth.)
edited to add last line.
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Well done Monica and Tootsiepie! :) That is basically what we came up with at TalkingScot.
Here are Mary and Samuel in 1881 (as transcribed at Ancestry)-
Mary Loay 45 (ms Martin born Ireland)
Mary Loay 16
Samuel Loay 13
Living at Castle Street
As you can see Mary senior shaved quite a few years off her age. According to a poorhouse application for education made in 1877 she was born around 1837.
It was the father of wee Nellie that I don't think we managed to resolve.
Regards,
Annette
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Thanks Monica - duplicate post modified.
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Good to see we all came to same conclusions ;)
If you go back to your post and click 'modify' you can go back to it and amend. You can't delete it but if you delete the text and put something like 'double post' it will do the trick!
Monica
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I think you've got the right family , Monica. Mary married William Smith in 1883, and so I wonder if these younger children are really Smiths..and Marys reverted to her maiden name. (Speculation at this point), and her mother is bringing up children while young Mary works.
Maybe she just named young Nellie with the middle name 'Caw' out of respect.
The other option is not quite so respectable.
I'd favour 1st option, as she is living in Hugh Caw's house (post Nellie's birth.)
edited to add last line.
Hugh Caw has a William Smith, grandson age 14 with him in 1901.
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Thanks Annette,I suspected mother Mary was a tad old for starting a new family.
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Mary states that she had no contact with her husband since 1889 and Nellie was born July 1890. Would there have been any reason to state William was not the father if she wanted to claim poor relief?
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Many, many thanks to all who replied to my query.
I have birth / death certificates for Samuel Loag and Mary Ann Muir Murray.
Samuel was indeed Mary's sister. [The mother of Helen /Nellie Loag] but who was Nellie's father. ?
I'm going to go through all the data I have, there's much confusion but hopefully all will be revealed!
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Eventually managed to find them in 1901! Info is very confusing. ::)
M Smith 36
David Smith 16 son :)
Mary Caw 12 stepdaughter ???
Helen Caw 10 stepdaughter ???
So...................since she's now calling the 2 girls Caw it might be worth looking at wee Mary's birth entry as she doesn't appear to be William Smith's daughter either.
I had a wee look while I was paying a flying visit to The Mitchell today for any poorhouse applications.
I found one for Mary Martin Caw born 1888. She applied in 1908 - Ref D-HEW 16/13/86 page 12856. Production was finished so I didn't have time to look but you can email them and ask for a copy - It's not very expensive. It might show info on her sister Helen.
Regards,
Annette
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Certainly is confusing Annette. The other check that might be worthwhile doing is to see who sister Mary Martin Caw gave as parents on her marriage cert (if she married) or her death entry. Always the hope that Mary and Helen may have had the same father....
Monica :)
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Uh oh, now I'm really confused... Here is Hugh in 1901 after Mary's death. Living with him is the William who was William Caw in the last census, called his son. Now he is William Smith, his grandson! I think he is probably Mary's from her marriage with William Smith???These people are amazing! :o
1901
Hugh B Caw, 50, Head, born Perth, Railway Stores Man
William Smith, 14, Grandson, born Glasgow,Railway Weighers Assistant
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I hope you are sitting down, because the plot is thickening with some startling results
I downloaded Samuel Loag and Mary Ann Muir Murray's marriage certificate. His occupation is a coachman, which fits with the 1891 and 1901 occupation of van driver. He must have become a photographer's manager later on.
His parents are Samuel Loag Iron(molder?), deceased and Mary Loag M.S. Martin!!!! Help!
That was the name of the mother of wee Nellie... and perhaps she had married the William Smith, brassfinisher after her husband Samuel died in 1880.
So it looks like Nellie/Helen Loag was actually Samuel's half sister, rather than his daughter!
He and Mary Ann must have taken her on and raised her as their own daughter. Trouble is, the real father is never mentioned by name... On the birth cert, which turns out to be Nellie after all, she just states that her husband is not the father of the child. Helen must have grown up thinking that her mother was really her grandmother and her brother was really her father!
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The mother and daughter's names are confusing but I think Nellie's mother was definitely Mary Martin Logue born 1864. Parents - Samuel Logue/Loag and Mary Martin.
This can be proved by the fact that when Nellie was born Mary Martin Logue born 1864 was still married to William Smith as stated on her birth entry.
Out of interest who were the witnesses at Nellie's marriage?
Regards,
Annette
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Hi Annette,
The witnesses at Helen[Nellie's ] marriage to Robert McCracken [ 10/06/1910 ] were William & Ruby Voy.
Mary Ann Muir Murray died 14/06/1915, then Samuel married a Joanna Voy.
The witnesses could be her family?
Regards
Brenda