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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: hmcmillan29 on Monday 03 August 09 08:13 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I have a marriage certificate for my 3 x Great grandparents who were married 10 July 1840 in Kilmarnock.
It reads "William McMillan in Glencairn Square and Janet Mackie in Fulburn Lane, after Proclamation, the extract was called for."
This is all it says before going onto the next couple. Can anyone tell me what the last bit means and is it right that no parents etc are recorded?
Many thanks
Hazel
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Hi Hazel
This link might explain it:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/LANARK/2000-05/0959494740
I think it suggests that the original page went missing and the page was rewritten later from an 'extract'
Gadget
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Thank you very much Gadget.
That explains it. I was just a bit disappointed with the lack of info it gave.
Cheers
Hazel
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Hi Hazel
"the extract was called for" or a similar phrase appears quite often in OPR examples.
My take on the phrase is that the couple were married after the banns had been proclaimed three times as was the usual practice, and a an "extract" i.e. a copy of the entry in the OPR which states that they were married was requested.
This "extract" would then be given to the couple in a similar way that a marriage certificate is issued today. It would be their "marriage lines" which may be requested from them to prove that they were married if, for example, they moved to another parish and required to have a child christened.
The example you have given is fairly typical of an OPR entry, a record kept by the Church of Scotland. I've seen many which contain far less information - at least you are told where the bride and groom are from - this is a bonus! It was only with the introduction of Statutory Registration in 1855 in Scotland that the information given, now to a Registrar instead of the session clerk, was of a standard form across Scotland and required infromation such as age of the parties, names of their parents etc.
Best wishes
Lesley
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Hi Lesley
I looked at the page that Hazel referred to and all the entries say either this or that they were married. The handwriting is all uniform as if it had been copied neatly from somewhere else.
Gadget
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Hi Lesley,
Thank you very much for the detail you wrote. I guess Im lucky that there was addresses written down...like you said. I hadnt come across a cert like that before.
Gadget, thank you again for taking the trouble to help and to also have a nosey at the cert yourself.
Kind regards
Hazel
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Hi Gadget
The handwriting is all uniform as if it had been copied neatly from somewhere else.
I'd definately agree that seeing the orignal page is always a good idea. It was standard practice as far as I'm aware, for the session clerk to jot down the events of the week as they happened and then transfer this into the register at once, so that may be an explanation for the uniform handwriting of many of the entries.
However, it does not explain why in some cases it says that extract was called for or in others that they were married, as you have mentioned. I wonder if this may be explained by cases of some of the couples actually being married in that parish, and in others they have been married in another parish, only one of the parties having been from Kilmarnock parish, so although the banns were read there, the marriage did not take place there? Just guessing here, but there must be a reason for the differences.
Could it be, if the above is a likely scenario, that Kilmarnock parish "called for an extract" from the other parish so that they had some documentation that the couple had indeed married? But I'm guessing that this couple were both in the same parish from the entry "William McMillan Glencairn Square and Janet Mackie in Fulburn Lane" so that is maybe not holding water as a theory!
Best wishes
Lesley
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After looking out the example of where I had seen this form of wording before, it appears to also be in Kilmarnock, and any searches on the web also seem to suggest that this form of wording seems to be typical of Kilmarnock OPRs of that period.
Looking at the page I have (for June 1849), four entries have "the extract" mentioned and two "were married this day" The way the entires are worded almost suggests that those who "were married this day..." etc had completed the proclamations of banns - it says"after being proclaimed" and those for whom "the extract was called" were perhaps still in the process of having the banns being called, as it says " were proclaimed in order to marriage" ...but I may be wrong.
It does not seem to differ if both parties were of that parish or not, so scrub that theory!
One couple on the Kilmarnock page mentioned on 15 June also have a mention in Loudoun Parish for 26 May 1849 (a Saturday), when they "gave in their names and were regularly proclaimed" so you'd think that would be plenty time (the expected 3 weeks) for the banns to be called in both parishes by 15 June (a Friday) in Kilmarnock when "the extract was called for"....
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It appears that three out of the four "extract" couples (cant find any trace of the 4th) in the above OPR went on to have children outside of the parish of Kilmarnock, which suggests to me that they perhaps knew that they were going to live elsewhere and required "extract" (marriage lines) to take to their new parish.
Those who were going to live in the parish would not need "extract" as they would continue to live in the parish where it was known that they were married. This applies to one of the "and were married this day" couples on the June 1849 page. Can't find a trace of kids to the one other "were married" couple.
Proof was often required by a parish of the marriage if a couple moved to a new area - otherwise, who knows, they might be living "in sin", Also, the church frowned on "irregular" marriages even though they were legal and pressure would be put on the couple to regularise the marriage. Having proof of marriage saved all this hassle.
I reckon those who were not going to be living in Kilmarnock parish asked for an "extract" to take with them. Did WIlliam & Janet remain in Kilmarnock or did they go to live elsewhere?
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Nearest that I can find on the 1841 is a William and Jean McMillan, both aged 20-24, living Firchfield Street, Kilmarnock, both b. Ayrshire. William was a Calico Printer App. Not sure if it is them but maybe Hazel can confirm.
Strange as I've looked at so many OPR marriage entries over the years but haven't come across this before.
Gadget
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Hi Lesley and Gadget,
Gadget, you are quite correct with the 1841 census and you have located the right family.
Lesley, I have them on the 1861 census still living in Kilmarnock. I cant find them as yet on the 1871, but by 1881, they are now in Beith.
Their children were born between 1842-1856 all b Kilmarnock,not sure about christenings...will need to check and confirm that.
Thank you both for taking an interest. I am learning lots through you both.
Best wishes
Hazel
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Hi Hazel & Gadget
On well, that is not what I was expecting. ::)
I still believe an "extract" is a copy of the marriage lines, written at the time of, or shortly after the event, but will obviously need to dig up some further proof from somewhere!
As a matter of interest, what are the names of the children to this couple? I'm seeing a Jeanie George McMillan on IGI who was b. 19 August in 1856 at Kilmarnock but I'd be interested to know of any earlier children.
Best wishes
Lesley
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Hi Lesley,
You very kind to help me so once again, thank you for taking an interest.
The names of the other children are Robert Young McMillan b 1842, William b 1846, John b 1848 and Jeanie George b 1856.
I am descended from Robert.
When i read their parents death certificates, both of them had the same informant....Alexander McMillan, Son.
He is still a mystery to me, so I dont have any info of his existance, apart from the info from death certs.
Many thanks
Hazel
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Hi Hazel
Sorry to ask so many questions, but where did you find the years of birth for the children? Do you have actual dates - days and months, or are they based on what you have found in census data?
Do you know where they are in the 1851 census?
Best wishes
Lelsey
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Hi Lesley,
I took the names from the census records, so I have no actual dates apart from Jeanie George.
I have Robert Young McMillans marriage certificate and it said he was 27 years old and the cert was dated 1869.
Im afraid I have not been able to locate them on the 1851 census yet, but Im trawling through them just now in the hope of finding them, so I will let you know what I come up with.
Kindest regards
Hazel
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Hi Lesley,
The family are still in Kilmarnock on the 1851 and 61 census.
There was a kind chap called Jonn who found that out for me. I have another post on "Ayrshire" re Margaret McMillan ms Thomson, to which he found out about the census returns. He had been searching his own ancestors in Ayrshire also McMillan and has discs of the details.
Best wishes
Hazel
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Hi Hazel and Lesley
I've been on SP but can't find any baptisms for the children pre 1855. Only one showing on the IGI is the Jeanie George one.
I used wildcards and variations. I may have missed a trick but I usually find them if they're there :-\
Gadget
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Hi Gadget
I've been on SP but can't find any baptisms for the children pre 1855. Only one showing on the IGI is the Jeanie George one.
That is exactly what I have been finding, ...or not finding! It seems very odd. There are OPRs for Kilmarnock on IGI, batch C115975 covering the years 1819-1854, and listing some McMillans, but not the correct ones. No sign on SP either. Odd.
The only thing I can think at the moment is that they were maybe part of a breakaway church after 1840, e.g. the Free Church. Hazel; do you have any later (post 1855) marriages for the family members in Scotland?
e.g. in the other post on this family which you mentioned:
Margaret Thomson.... married Robert Young McMillan 4 June 1869 in Kilmarnock.
In the first column, which church is stated?
Best wishes
Lesley
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Hi Lesley & Gadget,
Im so sorry to be causing all this bother to you both.
The marriage cert of Robert & Mgt Thomson says - On the 4th day of June, at Waterside St Kilmarnock. Marriage after banns according to this free of the evangelical union church.
The marriage cert of George McMillan to Mgt McCallum, says - On the 6th day of dec 1904 at Glengarnock, after banns according to the ??? of the united free church.
I hope that info is what you were looking for.
Thank you for your time and hard work.
Kind regards
Hazel
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according to this free of the evangelical union church
I think the this free might be the forms.
It does look like non-C of Scotland and the births only appear after statutory registration :-\
Gadget
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Hi Hazel & Gadget
It does look like non-C of Scotland and the births only appear after statutory registration
Yes, that would make sense and explains why there is no sign of the earlier children in the OPRs.
Helen - it is not "a bother" at all! These are the kind of wee mysteries that make family history absorbing and interesting!
Best wishes
Lesley
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I'm thinking that the Kirk Sessions minutes might possibly have something.
I'm not really up on them in Ayrshire although I have one line originating there but I don't think the Dunchies came up that far.
Are there any available locally or is it a trip to NAS :-\
Gadget
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Hi Gadjet
I'm thinking that the Kirk Sessions minutes might possibly have something.
There may be something to indicate the family leaving the CoS(or perhaps several families leaving around the time of the Disruption in 1843)
Kirk Session records are held in Ayrshire with digital copies available at NAS as far as I remember.
But it is more likely that any actual mention by name of the children will appear in records belonging to the Evangelical Union Church, or whatever other church they left the CoS for at the time, if christenings were recorded by them. If such records exist, and there may be none, they are likely to be held at either NAS; the online catalogue is here
http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/
- if you enter Kilmarnock and CH3 as the ref. it will give a list of non-conformist churches in the area, or perhaps there may be something held at local archives in Ayrshire (One archive centre is currently closed). The other is open:
http://www.burnsmonumentcentre.co.uk/20,21/archives_family_and_local_history/research_your_family_history/
Best wishes
Lesley
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Thank you very much to you both for doing this.
Im going to have a look at the links you've very kindly pointed out.
Hazel