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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Surrey Lookup Requests => Surrey => England => Surrey Completed Look up Requests => Topic started by: flaggysmob on Sunday 02 August 09 21:50 BST (UK)
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Hi
can any of you clever people find the missing link
In our tree we have a Charles Pratt living C1764-1817 I have his death record and is in a will along with our direct descendant a Richard Living. There is a George Charles Pratt Living born c1802 we can't find a link between the two. We also know that GCPL married a Harriett courage.
any help in finding the missing link would be fantastic
many thanks
Flaggysmob :)
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What country?
What county/town(s)?
When & where was the Harriet Courage marriage?
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sorry
Its in Surrey in England Charles Pratt Living was buried in Chertsey in 1817 . and George Charles Pratt living married Harriett Courage in 1823 in Horsleydown in Surry Apart from their names we don't have any thing to link them but what are the chances of two people both being Pratt Livings and being related
many thanks
Flaggysmob :)
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hi
Have been told that Harriett Courage was the third daughter of John Courage 1761-1797 founder of the Courage Brewery. I don't know if this helps any
many thanks
Flaggysmob :)
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Hi
Have you looked at the Living Prerogative Court of Canterbury wills held by The National Archives including those of the Livings in Chertsey?
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/power-search.asp?searchType=powersearch
HARRIETT LIVING
Birth: 14 JUN 1826
Christening: 12 JUL 1826 Saint Mary, Newington, Surrey
Father: GEORGE CHARLES PRATT LIVING
Mother: HARRIETT
JOHN LIVING
Birth: 10 JUL 1828
Christening: 06 AUG 1828 Saint Mary, Newington, Surrey
Father: GEORGE CHARLES PRATT LIVING
Mother: HARRIETT
1841 census HO107 1052/1 folio 8
10 Albany Road Camberwell Surrey
Harriett Living 40 Ind.
Harriett Living 14
John living 12 Ind
all born Surrey
plus 2 servants
The family were in Newington in 1851. Harriet was a widow aged 55, an annuitant born Southwark.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda
my father has a will for a John living who is the father of our direct descendant Richard Living. In this will he also mentions his ( Richard's) son Charles Pratt Living. In our research we have come across George Charles Pratt Living married to Harriett Courage. The names being so similar you would say they had to be related but being off the end of the bmd register we can't find a link. We had seen the census record for 1841 and we also know that GCPLiving was declared bankrupt in 1828 what we would really like is a record that links Charles Pratt Living to George Charles Pratt Living. The only will I can see at the national archive is for John Living which we all ready have.
Regards
flaggysmob :)
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Hi
There are 4 Living Chertsey wills
Will of Polly Living, Widow of Chertsey , Surrey 19 January 1838 PROB 11/1889
Will of Edwin Living of Chertsey , Surrey 10 December 1825 PROB 11/1706
Will of Ann Living, Widow of Chertsey , Surrey 20 August 1792 PROB 11/1222
Will of John Living, Draper of Chertsey , Surrey 04 December 1782 PROB 11/1098
There are also three listed in the Surrey plus index but not necessarily for Chertsey
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~engsurry/i2l.shtml
One is for Charles Pratt Livings 1839.
Death Duty registers (held at The National Archives) for these wills (from 1792 onwards) hold this sort of information
'The registers in IR 26 between 1796 and 1903 include information not found elsewhere. They show what happened to someone's personal estate (not freehold) after death; and what it was actually worth, excluding debts and expenses. They can give the name of the deceased, with address and last occupation, the date of the will, the place and date of probate, the names, addresses and occupations of the executors, and details of estates, legacies, trustees, legatees, annuities and the duty paid. They can also give the date of death, and information about the people who received bequests (beneficiaries), or who were the next-of-kin, such as exact relationship to the deceased. Tax was not payable on bequests to people within a closely defined family circle, and as a result the family relationship was often noted in the registers. In 1796, tax was not payable on bequests to offspring, spouse, parents and grandparents. In 1805, the exemption was restricted to spouse and parents. From 1815, only bequests to the spouse were exempt from paying tax. Because the registers could be annotated for many years after the first entry, they can include information such as dates of death of spouse; dates of death or marriage of beneficiaries; births of posthumous children and grandchildren; change of address; references to law suits, cross references to other entries, etc.'
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=107
Australian records
7th October 1843 Sydney Record
INSOLVENT ESTATES (More details in newspaper)
George Charles Pratt Living, of Raby, settler
New South Wales Insolvency Index
LIVING George Charles Pratt - - - - 30/09/1843 00964
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AUS-NSW/2007-02/1171172808
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/
Death registration in New South Wales
V1846197 149/1846 LIVING GEORGE C P AGE 53
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/search.htm
Putting his birth at circa 1793 (though you give circa 1802)?
Regards
Valda
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Hi
Thank you very much for your reply Valda
I had looked at the surrey list of wills and the mention of Charles and Charles Pratt Living ( deceased) is in a Lady's will that left Charles £19.
I had found a bankcrupcy for George in London in 1828 so the 2 in Australia and then his death is very helpfull. will have to look into that a bit more. We had found John's will and Ann was his wife
thanks very much for this extra info I will digest and investigate it all
kind regards
Flaggysmob :)
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Hi
There also seems to have been a Captain G.C.P. Living
Departure Departure
Month & Day Jul 10
Year 1819
Name of Ship Lady Borringdon
Type of Ship Ship
Captain G.C.P. Living
Title or Rank Mrs.
Passenger Surname Maxwell
Children & 1 infant
Passenger Origin Bombay
Destination London
Vessel Origin Bombay
Source Bombay Calendar
Edition 1820
Arrival Arrival
Month & Day Oct 19
Year 1820
Name of Ship Lady Boringdon
Type of Ship Ship
Captain G.C.P. Living
Title or Rank Lady
Passenger Surname Evans
Passenger Origin London
Destination Bombay
Vessel Origin London
Source Bombay Calendar
Edition 1821
http://www.fibis.org/
As far as I can tell the Lady Borringdon was an East India Merchant ship and later as a merchant GCP Living certainly had dealings with the East India Company e.g.
Mrs. Matilda Canning, Bond, Passenger, Bombay, Amount of security: £200, Sureties: John Short Brinley, Birchin Lane, Merchant. George C.P. Living, George Yard, Lombard Street, Ship Owner., Authority of Court: 3 Jul 1822
John Warrand, Bond & Covenant, Free Mariner, Bengal, Amount of security: £500, Sureties: George C. P. Living, Albany Road, Camberwell, Merchant. David Richards, Mincing Lane, Merchant., Authority of Court: 4 Jul 1832
The Indian Office at the British Library holds this documentation
East India Company Mercantile Marine Baptism Certificates
Baptism certificates and certificates of age for marine officers 1780-1820: L/MAR/C/669-670. Both volumes are indexed.
http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelpsubject/history/genealogy/indiaofficerecordsfamilyhistory/familyresearch.html
Regards
Valda
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Hi,
The simplest explanation would be that GCPL is the son of Charles Pratt Living who died in 1817. Obviously, absent birth or christening records, it can't be proven.
IGI does show a George Pratt christened May 31, 1801 son of Charles and Elizabeth. St. Saviour Southwark. The year is right, the place is kind of right, and the name is sort of right ::) ::)
Have you seen the 1823 marriage record or checked with the Surrey Index re: possible notes or a mention of witnesses to the wedding?
Jann
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Hi
But it doesn't fit with his age on death, or his surname of Living not Pratt, or the name of Charles Pratt Living's wife - Polly, who outlived him by 21 years.
Death registration in New South Wales
1846 LIVING GEORGE C P AGE 53
Giving a birth year of circa 1793 which would just fit with this marriage
CHARLES PRATT LIVING
POLLY MILLEST
Marriage: 10 MAY 1792 Saint Paul Covent Garden, Westminster, London
LIVINGS, Charles Pratt
Christening Date:29 Apr 1764 Chertsey, Surrey
Father:John LIVINGS
Mother:Ann
But Charles Pratt Living had 4 male siblings all baptised in Chertsey (including one called George) and anyone of the older siblings, if they survived childhood and married (no burials in the Chertsey registers) could also presumably have chosen to name one of their sons after their brother/s, and other than Nathaniel you would expect them to have all married before Charles Pratt Living since they were older than him. Since Charles didn't marry until he was 29 even Nathaniel could have married before him.
Thomas 6/3/1754
George 18/3/1756 possible PCC will 1837 - gentleman of Vauxhall (Lambeth)
Richard 17/9/1758
Nathaniel 17/7/1767 possible on the 1841 census in Southwark aged 70 (1841 census adult ages rounded down to the nearest 5) a clerk, born Surrey.
Possible marriages
Thomas 1782 to Mary Adams , St Michael Brassishaw City of London
George 1786 to Jane Page (of St Mary Lambeth), All Hallows Lombard Street City of London
You might have expected if he was the son of Charles Pratt Living that Charles' will in 1817 would have made that clear or in Charles' widow's will.
Will of Polly Living, Widow of Chertsey , Surrey 19 January 1838 PROB 11/1889
Since it isn't obvious from Charles' will (though the Death Duty registers for the will would specify the relationship) it isn't at this point a simple explanation without further evidence from other Living wills such as Polly's and possibly as a longer shot's George's, the Death Duty registers or
'East India Company Mercantile Marine Baptism Certificates
Baptism certificates and certificates of age for marine officers 1780-1820: L/MAR/C/669-670. Both volumes are indexed'. since he served as a Captian in the company fleet.
All of which could help prove who his father was regardless of whether a baptism entry in a register is ever found.
Any of his uncles could have witnessed his marriage. The only brother that for sure was dead by 1823 was Charles.
Unfortunately the Surrey marriage index does not cover parishes in the metropolitan area of Surrey such as Southwark and Lambeth.
At this point the simpliest answer might be he is the son of brother George not Charles.
Regards
Valda
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Three years on and new to rootschat I have the information on the link between Charles Pratt Living and George Charles Pratt Living if people are still looking for it :-)
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Hi Silentmolly
Welcome to rootschat. My mother is a living and we have traced her tree back to John Living b.1720.Her direct line is his son Richard b.1758 but whilst looking at the livings we came across GC Pratt Living marrying a Harriett Courage ( of the brewery line ) also seems he was a captain and had a fine life. We were unable to find the link to Charles Pratt B.1762 and have no idea at all as to where the Pratt name comes from Any info you have we would love to see and vis-a-versa happy to share any living info we have if you are interested
Kind regards
Ian
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Hi Ian, are you on ancestry.co.uk? I've just done a branch of a tree there which will show you how GCPL and CPL are connected. There's also a fine photo of GCPL's son John and his family in Australia here http://bonzle.com/c/a?a=pic&fn=k41kug7t&s=3
I'm not a relation - just happened to be researching something when I came across messages from confused Living descendants!
If you can't access ancestry.co.uk let me know and we'll figure out another way. Alys