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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: bopsey on Wednesday 22 July 09 07:09 BST (UK)
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Hi Everyone
A friend posted a request for me last year about John Ford. There was plenty of helpful stuff posted about his wife Sarah Collision but nothing about John. I am still no nearer finding him so would appreciate some extra brainpower!
Both John and his father William were fishmongers (from John's marriage certificate) and John lived in 1881 in Middle Shadwell/ High street Shadwell later
John lived at 35 Turners Road (Bow I think) at the time of his marriage and 17 St Dunstans Place at the time of his son’s birth (1873)
John was born about 1853 (aged 18 on his December 1871 marriage certificate) in Shadwell (according to the 1881 census)
He and Sarah went on to have the following children
Sarah Ann b1871
John b 1873
Harry b 1875
William b 1877
Alfred b 1879
Samuel b 1881
Charles b 1884
Peter b 1886
Eliz b 1888
Hannah b 1890
I cant find a John Ford with a father William in the 1871 or 1861 census of the rightish age and with any occupation that might resemble a fishmonger. I have found an Elizabeth Ford with a son William living next door to a fish Dealer in 1881 but that’s all. William could have course been deceased even though there is no indication of this on the marriage Cert.
Shadwell seems to be a heaving heap of humanity at that time and I wonder if it was almost impossible to do a proper census! Does anyone know if there are bits of the Shadwell census missing from Ancestry. I have been through the entire Middle Shadwell area page by page but cannot find anyone who matches at all convincingly
Anyone with any ideas about census leads/ fishmongers/ general info about Shadwell pleeeese.
Oh how I wish he had an unusual name!
Here hoping ???
Linda
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Hi Linda
I'm afraid your issue with this is how reliable John's information was on his marriages certificate. There is no birth registration for a John Ford in Stepney registration district which would cover Shadwell (he is consistant with his birthplace 1881-1901 censuses and within a year of his age) and he doesn't appear on an earlier census.
If he was born illegitimately he is not going to admit that on his marriage unless he has to, so his father is likely to have the same surname and often occupation as himself. In these instances father's first names given can be the nearest male relative or indeed the name of the real father. Or the other scenario is the birth wasn't registered, but he was born legitimately and his father died and his mother remarried. He appears in the censuses under his stepfather's surname until he leaves home. Step children aren't always defined as such on censuses.
Did John Ford marry again after his wife died? If so are the details on his second marriage certificate consistant with the details given the first?
There doesn't seem to be a John Ford baptism in the St Paul Shadwell registers
http://www.parishregister.com/searchpage.asp
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda
Thanks for the tips and ideas. Good point about the possibility of him being illegitimate and changing his name although I’ve had a look at all the Johns I can find in the area in 1871 but still can’t find anything convincing. I have found that District 4 out of 6 in Shadwell is missing from those transcribed on Ancestry, so am still thinking there may be a problem with the parts of the census that exist
On the question of whether John remarried I and if there is another marriage cert to look at it gets more problematic. In 1911 John is a widower but has a daughter Lulu who is 9. Sarah Ann seems to have died Poplar June Q 1899 aged 47 so unless the daughter’s age is wrongly recorded, he may have remarried and lost his second wife sometime between either 1901 (Ford - Louisa Jane, Mile End 1c 499) or 1903 (FORD - Louisa Ellen, Stepney 1c 382) and the 1911 census. I cant find a likely marriage though!
Ive also found out a lot about Shadwell fish Market which was opened in 1896 and closed sometime between 1901 and 1911 (any ideas when anyone?) It was built on the rather run down area around Lower Shadwell (see Charles Booth walkbooks )and may well have been why John Ford moved from Middle Shadwell to Shadwell High street between 1881 and 1891. It would be nice to imagine him as a shopkeeper but he was probably a wholesaler from the Fish market of a stall holder (this would fit in with the whole of my East End family) He is listed as an employer though 1891-1911 censuses.
As I said before any hints ideas of insight into the area or missing census records would be lovely…..
Linda
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Hi
Births Mar 1901
Ford Louisa Jane Mile End 1c 499
Louisa Jane's birth registration is the right age (at 9 - 1911 census for Lulu) but she would have been born before the census since her birth was registered in the March quarter of 1901 and census night 1901 was the 31st March. There is a Louisa in Mile End aged 5 months, parents Clarence and Louisa Ford, birthplace given as Stepney. You had 6 weeks to register a birth so in theory a November birth could be registered in the next quarter. It doesn't quite make 5 months but there isn't another birth registration for this child if the March quarter isn't her.
Births Jun 1903
FORD Louisa Ellen Stepney 1c 382
Is the wrong age for 9 year old Lulu on the 1911 census but the only other potential Ford birth registration for a Louisa or Lucy = pet name Lulu.
There is a potential later marriage for a Louisa E Ford in Stepney
Marriages Jun 1932
Ford Louisa E Land Stepney 1c 299
Land Thomas V Ford Stepney 1c 299
You also have a possible marriage in 1903 with a missing spouse in Mile End for John, but it would be after the June quarter birth registration which is a bit like 'back to square one' because of course if John married later, then Lulu could in fact be registered circa 1901, but not in the surname Ford since she might have been born before the marriage or in fact be the child of John's second wife from a previous marriage. If the latter John could have married, if he did, any time between 1901 and 1911.
e.g. potential marriages both with missing spouses.
Marriages Sep 1903
FORD John Mile End 1c 705
GAIRNS John Francis Mile End 1c 705
HALL Catherine Mile End 1c 705
Marriages Jun 1908
Darby William Stepney 1c 559
Ford John Stepney 1c 559
McKinnie Eliza Jane Stepney 1c 559
The only good news is if his wife's death was registered in Stepney and it might not have been (what registration district was John living in in 1911 and what is Lulu's place of birth) there are only two possible candidates, one of whom is much younger.
Deaths Mar 1903
Ford Amy Isabella 23 Stepney 1c 251
Deaths Jun 1905
Ford Sarah 46 Stepney 1c 235
Both these deaths would rule out the 1908 Stepney marriage and the 1903 Poplar marriage with potential spouses named Eliza Florence and Florence.
Are there any family memories of 'Lulu' that would help to establish which is her marriage at least, and thus her real name?
There are no known problems with the 1871 census for London. There may not have been a district 4 for Shadwell. For instance if you look at Stepney you get Mile End New Town consisting of districts 6-17 where are 1-5 and Mile End Old Town Eastern of districts 36 and 41. Poplar All Saints has districts 6,11,14 &15, 22, 25 & 26, 30, 37 & 41. Other districts are similarly arranged. The 1861 census does have problems with (Middlesex central) London but mostly in Westminster.
Regards
Valda
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Who were the witnesses at the 1871 marriage? I'm just wondering if we could take a look at who is living on Turners Road and I haven't been able to locate it on the census yet.
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Hi 563/7-13 is Turners Road Bow. It is shown on the index as Turners Road - Rhodeswell Road-Bow Common Lane.
John Weedon a warehouseman born Hoxton living at 35 with his family.
Jennifer
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Hi, Checked 1871 census for 17 Dunstan Place RG10/548/58
Multi occupancy household, but not there.
Jennifer
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Hi
Since John was 18 at the time of his marriage and therefore under age (21) he would need consent to marry. If the church banns books have survived (presuming the marriage was by banns) they may give further information on who gave the consent. Sometimes this may also be indicated in the marriage register itself but not on the copy made to the local registrar who then made a copy of that copy to send to the GRO. Only the entry in the marriage register itself has the original signatures.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda, Jennifer and Jorose,
Sorry its been a time before I got back to all you lovely people but its taken some time to investigate all the ‘if buts and maybes’ that you come up with! I am most impressed with the pertinent points you all have made.
Here in no particular order are some more bits and pieces..
•Children of JOHN FORD and SARAH COLLISON (father Peter, mother Dinah) were
SARAH ANN FORD, b. 1871, Ratcliff.
JOHN FORD, b. July 13, 1873, Ratcliff, (Stepney) Middlesex.
HARRY FORD, b. 1875.
WILLIAM FORD, b. 1877, Ratcliff; d. 1888, Stepney. (Stepney 1c 268)
ALFRED FORD, b. 1879, Ratcliff.
SAMUEL FORD, b. 1881, Shadwell. (Birth June 1881, Stepney 1c 418)
CHARLES FORD, b. 1884, Shadwell.
PETER FORD, b. 1885, Shadwell.
ELIZA FORD, b. 1888, Shadwell;
HANNAH FORD, b. 1891, Shadwell.
From this I could surmise that John’s mum was called Eliza or possibly Hannah since naming patterns seem to rule through the Ford family. Harry seems to be the spanner in the works as far as this theory goes!
•My mum (aged 90 in August) has no recollection of Lulu. Lulu would have been her great aunt even though Lulu was at least 4 years younger than my mum’s dad. I found a death of one Louisa Ford in 1915…( Ford, Louisa 15 Poplar 1c 562) perhaps this is her.
•The witnesses where George Hanshaw and
There are 3 Georges to choose from two seem too young but you never know..
Brook Street Ratcliff
George Hanshaw born abt 1856 b Limehouse, RG 10 546
George Hanshaw born abt 1832 b Stepney, RG 10 546
Devonport St. Ratcliff
George Hanshaw born abt 1857 b London Middlesex, RG 10 546
I cant find any connection between Hanshaws and Fords or Collisons so they may have been friends, just passing or even serial witnesses.
Christiana Collison seems to be a topic in herself, as no very likely candidate has been found for her either (see Aspins entry: ‘John Ford fish monger’ on: Wednesday 26 March 08 )
Thanks for the tip about Banns Valda. They were married by Banns but unfortunately I cant find any reference to St Paul Bow Commons Church Banns Books anywhere on the net, only the Parish Registers which are available on microfilm at LMA. (pity I live in North Northumberland…I suppose I might venture into the big metropolis sometime!)
•Another puzzle is Sarah Ford (born 1871) their daughter. She was aged 10 in 1881 and 20 in 1891 so I assume was born prior to marriage and if she really was 10 would have been on the 1871 census. Sarah in a servant to a coffee house in Broad Street, John cant be found and Sarah their daughter doesn’t even seem to have a birth Certificate. There is a Sarah Ford born March Q 1871 but her death is registered immediately along with Sarah Ford aged 27 with the same index no (I assume died in childbirth or soon after) so no go there!
•I got the address wrong in Turners Road its 33 not 35 but another family are living there in 1871. 17 Dunstans place is a little more interesting as Peter Sarah’s brother was living at no 10 in 1871.
•If I can add more difficulties to the puzzle my granddad William David Ford –son of John b.1872- was born 1898. I can find no trace of him or his family in the 1901 census! They are there in 1911 but any ideas on 1901 would be appreciated also!
JOHN FORD:
Lived: 1893, 87 Abbey Street, Bethnal Green
Lived 1911 263 st Leonards Road, Poplar
CAROLINE BALCOMBE:
Lived: 1893, 22 Abbey St,Bethnal Green
JOHN FORD b.1872 Shadwell
CAROLINE BALCOMBE b. 1874 Stepney
JOHN (JACK) HENRY FORD, b. July 13, 1894, Wapping.
RICHARD JAMES (JIM) FORD, b. 1896, Shadwell.
WILLIAM DAVID FORD, b. 1898, Stepney.
SAMUEL CHARLES FORD, b. 1903, Poplar.
EDWARD GEORGE FORD, b. 1904, Stepney.
ANNIE MARIE FORD, b. 1908, Poplar.
CAROLINE FORD, b. 1909, Poplar.
PETER FORD, b. 1910, Poplar.
MARY E FORD, b. 1912.
GEORGE F FORD, b. 1914; d. 1915.
I wouldn’t mind but I have the same problems with my nan’s family who lived in East London, the Evans…but there’s a problem for later!
Regards
Linda ???
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Hi have found, not sure if you have:
1901 RG13/316/37 72 High Street Shadwell
John Ford 47 Wid Fishmonger employer
Peter 15 Assistant to father
Eliza 13 attending school all born Shadwell.
291/13 (Bethnal Green) there is a Louisa Ford 14 parents William & Caroline William is a book binder. Could be your death?
Jennifer
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Hi Everyone
A friend posted a request for me last year about John Ford. There was plenty of helpful stuff posted about his wife Sarah Collision but nothing about John. I am still no nearer finding him so would appreciate some extra brainpower!
Both John and his father William were fishmongers (from John's marriage certificate) and John lived in 1881 in Middle Shadwell/ High street Shadwell later
John lived at 35 Turners Road (Bow I think) at the time of his marriage and 17 St Dunstans Place at the time of his son’s birth (1873)
John was born about 1853 (aged 18 on his December 1871 marriage certificate) in Shadwell (according to the 1881 census)
He and Sarah went on to have the following children
Sarah Ann b1871
John b 1873
Harry b 1875
William b 1877
Alfred b 1879
Samuel b 1881
Charles b 1884
Peter b 1886
Eliz b 1888
Hannah b 1890
I cant find a John Ford with a father William in the 1871 or 1861 census of the rightish age and with any occupation that might resemble a fishmonger. I have found an Elizabeth Ford with a son William living next door to a fish Dealer in 1881 but that’s all. William could have course been deceased even though there is no indication of this on the marriage Cert.
Shadwell seems to be a heaving heap of humanity at that time and I wonder if it was almost impossible to do a proper census! Does anyone know if there are bits of the Shadwell census missing from Ancestry. I have been through the entire Middle Shadwell area page by page but cannot find anyone who matches at all convincingly
Anyone with any ideas about census leads/ fishmongers/ general info about Shadwell pleeeese.
Oh how I wish he had an unusual name!
Here hoping ???
Linda
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Hi Everyone
A friend posted a request for me last year about John Ford. There was plenty of helpful stuff posted about his wife Sarah Collision but nothing about John. I am still no nearer finding him so would appreciate some extra brainpower!
Both John and his father William were fishmongers (from John's marriage certificate) and John lived in 1881 in Middle Shadwell/ High street Shadwell later
John lived at 35 Turners Road (Bow I think) at the time of his marriage and 17 St Dunstans Place at the time of his son’s birth (1873)
John was born about 1853 (aged 18 on his December 1871 marriage certificate) in Shadwell (according to the 1881 census)
He and Sarah went on to have the following children
Sarah Ann b1871
John b 1873
Harry b 1875
William b 1877
Alfred b 1879
Samuel b 1881
Charles b 1884
Peter b 1886
Eliz b 1888
Hannah b 1890
I cant find a John Ford with a father William in the 1871 or 1861 census of the rightish age and with any occupation that might resemble a fishmonger. I have found an Elizabeth Ford with a son William living next door to a fish Dealer in 1881 but that’s all. William could have course been deceased even though there is no indication of this on the marriage Cert.
Shadwell seems to be a heaving heap of humanity at that time and I wonder if it was almost impossible to do a proper census! Does anyone know if there are bits of the Shadwell census missing from Ancestry. I have been through the entire Middle Shadwell area page by page but cannot find anyone who matches at all convincingly
Anyone with any ideas about census leads/ fishmongers/ general info about Shadwell pleeeese.
Oh how I wish he had an unusual name!
Here hoping ???
Linda
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Alfred Ford born 1859 fishmonger of 114 High Street, Shadwell, Stepney is the great grandfather of my husband.
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Hi "Petsules"
The info you posted really is tantalizing! My John and Sarah Ford were at 114 in 1891! Can you give me any more details and sources. Does he appear in any of the censuses? It sounds like he could be brother or cousin of my John (1853). Have sent you a private mail so you reply via that if you wish.
Very much looking forward to your reply
Linda Lytollis
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Alfred Ford born 1859 fishmonger of 114 High Street, Shadwell, Stepney is the great grandfather of my husband.
Hi Jennifer,
I had found the info about John Peter and Eliza. The other family don’t seem to be connected but I’ll keep them in the pot just in case! Louisa was John's (1853)daughter, it seems by a second marriage/relationship and was born about 1902. The death I found should have been 1916 (1c 562) –typist finger struck again-aged 15 so this may be a match.
Out of John and Sarah’s children who were there on the 1891 census I am unable the ones highlighted in 1901-very strange
HARRY FORD, b. 1875.
WILLIAM FORD, b. 1877, Ratcliff; d. 1888, Stepney. (Stepney 1c 268)
ALFRED FORD, b. 1879, Ratcliff.
SAMUEL FORD, b. 1881, Shadwell. (Birth June 1881, Stepney 1c 418)
CHARLES FORD, b. 1884, Shadwell.
PETER FORD, b. 1885, Shadwell.
ELIZA FORD, b. 1888, Shadwell;
HANNAH FORD, b. 1891, Shadwell.
….And of course John Ford, his wife Caroline and family
There doesn’t seem to be any deaths between 1891 and 1901that match either……
Thanks for your interest
Linda
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Sorry Jennifer-wrong quote! Try again
Hi have found, not sure if you have:
1901 RG13/316/37 72 High Street Shadwell
John Ford 47 Wid Fishmonger employer
Peter 15 Assistant to father
Eliza 13 attending school all born Shadwell.
291/13 (Bethnal Green) there is a Louisa Ford 14 parents William & Caroline William is a book binder. Could be your death?
Jennifer
Hi Jennifer,
I had found the info about John Peter and Eliza. The other family don’t seem to be connected but I’ll keep them in the pot just in case! Loisa was Johns daughter it seems by a second marriage/relationship and was born about 1902. The death I found should have been 1916 (1c 562) –typist finger struck again-aged 15 so this may be a match.
Out of John and Sarah’s children who were there on the 1891 census I am unable the ones highlighted in 1901-very strange
HARRY FORD, b. 1875.
WILLIAM FORD, b. 1877, Ratcliff; d. 1888, Stepney. (Stepney 1c 268)
ALFRED FORD, b. 1879, Ratcliff.
SAMUEL FORD, b. 1881, Shadwell. (Birth June 1881, Stepney 1c 418)
CHARLES FORD, b. 1884, Shadwell.
PETER FORD, b. 1885, Shadwell.
ELIZA FORD, b. 1888, Shadwell;
HANNAH FORD, b. 1891, Shadwell.
….And of course John Ford, his wife Caroline and family
There doesn’t seem to be any deaths between 1891 and 1901that match either……
Thanks for your interest
Linda
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Hi have found, not sure if you have:
1901 RG13/316/37 72 High Street Shadwell
John Ford 47 Wid Fishmonger employer
Peter 15 Assistant to father
Eliza 13 attending school all born Shadwell.
291/13 (Bethnal Green) there is a Louisa Ford 14 parents William & Caroline William is a book binder. Could be your death?
Jennifer
Hi Jennifer,
I had found the info about John Peter and Eliza. The other family don’t seem to be connected but I’ll keep them in the pot just in case! Loisa was Johns daughter it seems by a second marriage/relationship and was born about 1902. The death I found should have been 1916 (1c 562) –typist finger struck again-aged 15 so this may be a match.
Out of John and Sarah’s children who were there on the 1891 census I am unable the ones highlighted in 1901-very strange
HARRY FORD, b. 1875.
WILLIAM FORD, b. 1877, Ratcliff; d. 1888, Stepney. (Stepney 1c 268)
ALFRED FORD, b. 1879, Ratcliff.
SAMUEL FORD, b. 1881, Shadwell. (Birth June 1881, Stepney 1c 418)
CHARLES FORD, b. 1884, Shadwell.
PETER FORD, b. 1885, Shadwell.
ELIZA FORD, b. 1888, Shadwell;
HANNAH FORD, b. 1891, Shadwell.
….And of course John Ford, his wife Caroline and family
There doesn’t seem to be any deaths between 1891 and 1901that match either……
Thanks for your interest
Linda
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Hi
Singleton males are always difficult to find on censuses (they are the largest group missing on modern day censuses). There was a war on at the time of 1901 which would also mean that men were missing from the census having volunteered to fight in South Africa. There seem to be at least two Samuel Fords of about the right age in London including one in Poplar on the 1911 census whose birthplace is Shadwell. There are a lot more Charles Fords so that is much more difficult to spot from the 1911 census index and none it would seem with a birthplace in Shadwell.
'Hannah Ford' on the 1891 census is Harriet
Births Jun 1891
FORD Harriet Stepney 1c 416
either
Deaths Sep 1891
Ford Harriet 0 Stepney 1c 260
or
Deaths Dec 1891
FORD Harriet 0 Stepney 1c 312
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
Sorry about delay in replying...my screen defunct and I was grabbing moments on my husbands laptop!
Thanks for the tip about Harriet...I should have seen that.
I might have the chance of coming down to London next week and visiting the Metropoliton Archives. Taking all my problems into account, have you any tips on what to look for first? Or for that matter any other places in might be worth visiting to find out more.
Your advice...and anyone elses would be appreciated
Linda
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Hi
Your starting point are church registers in the Shadwell area.
Useful maps
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=22731
Regards
Valda
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Hi Everyone,
Back from my epic journey south…to absolutely no avail…I found zilch at the Met Archives. Looked through interminable parish records and went very cross eyed. :'(
However I did buy an Alan Godfrey map of the area and this has proved very useful.
I decided to go through the whole of the Shadwell districts in 1861 street by street and found this:
The description of District 6 (RG 9-282) says:
The parish of St Paul comprising
Bell Wharf Hill no 165
The whole of Dean Street
The whole of Gould Hill
The whole of Gould Hill Green
Spring Gardens Place
Three Cup Alley, Three Cup Court
Broad Bridge, both sides of Middle Shadwell and the whole of Lower Shadwell
However only 22 pages are available it seems and the streets covered stop half way down Three Cup Alley. There is a mysterious note in the top right of 9/282 Folio 136 page 21. It has END written next to the folio number then ‘* see overleaf’ written next to it. I assume this means on the reverse as page 22 is there and no notes are visible.
Ancestry stops at p.22 and Find My Past stops at p.21
Of course all this means that Three Cup Court, Broad Bridge, both sides of Middle Shadwell and the whole of Lower Shadwell are missing, the most likely bit for my ancestors…..
Has anyone any idea how to find out what is written overleaf or where the rest of this district is. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Linda
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Hi
If you think there are pages missing from the original census enumerators book which have not been microfilmed then you need to email The National Archives since they hold the orginal books. They can tell you if the rest exists or is wanting/lost. The indexes are based on the microfilm copied provided by The National Archives.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Linda,
I know It was a long time since you posted this. I have just started helping my Mother-in-Law look in to her family tree and we have an old photo of John William Ford, with his daughter Lulu
Thanks
Shaun