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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: fallingonabruise on Saturday 01 August 09 16:03 BST (UK)
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I have 2 wedding certificates for my great gran, Elizabeth Cassidy
one from 1914 aged 26 (b1888) living in Acklington
one from 1957 aged 66 (b1891) living in Hebburn,
both give fathers name as John Cassidy - coal miner
so how do i find out her mothers name and where she came from,
because it feels like i can't prove anything else now and its giving me a headache !! ??? ??? ???
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Hi
Could you please give the details from the 1914 certificate ie Elizabeth's occupation - names of witnesses, where marriage took place. Does it give her full address or just the town?
Thanks
Rosie
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Have you got her birth certificate.
Busybod
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It must be busy here, I was shut out of Rootschat for 30mins !!
right wedding cert 1914
John Knowles, 32, holder up in shipyard, 6 station street, jarrow, father Charles Knowles deceased shipwright.
Elizabeth Cassidy, 26, no job, 29 leslie row, Acklington, father John Cassidy coal miner.
witness A.Wilson and E.Kennedy
and , no I dont have a birth cert for her :)
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Have you seen the birth for Elizabeth Jane Cassidy, Morpeth, June 1888 ref 10b 317?
It is in FreeBMD.
Kooky
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Have you seen the birth for Elizabeth Jane Cassidy, Morpeth, June 1888 ref 10b 317?
It is in FreeBMD.
Kooky
yes seen that but it looks like she died in 1890.
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Have you looked on the IGI. There's one born 4th December 1888 at St Mary's, Sunderland.
May I ask if you know for sure that she was born in 1888 as sometimes they lied about their age on their marriage certificates. Just a thought.
Busybod
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The only one I can see on census records is this:
1891
John Cassidy 52 railway labourer born Ireland
Bridget Cassidy 44 wife born Ireland
Mary Cassidy 17 bakery worker born Sunderland
Bridget Cassidy 15 born Sunderland
Patrick Cassidy 11 born Sunderland
Ann Cassidy 8 born Sunderland
Julia Cassidy 6 born Sunderland
Elizabeth Cassidy 2 born Sunderland
At 14 Society Lane Monkwearmouth Shore Sunderland
RG12/4149/94/24
Looks like the same one Busybod found.
The family are still there in Monkwearmouth in 1901, but the've moved to a different address. John is still a labourer on the railways.
Anne
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Do you know what age it says on her death certificate? If you know when she died we might be able to find her - what was her name at time of death? This might narrow her birth date down a bit.
I don't suppose any other Cassidy's witnessed her second marriage?
Laurina
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I looked at the census for 1891 on Genes Reunited and found this:-
Thomas Cassidy - 48 - Shipyard Labourer
Mary Ann Cassidy - 41 - Wife
John Cassidy - son
Thomas Cassidy - son
Edward Cassidy - son
Philip Cassidy - son
Elizabeth Cassidy - Dtr - age 2
Alice Cassidy
They are living at: Silksworth Row, Sunderland.
Busybod
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No, sorry, forget my earlier message, it's not this one. This Elizabeth died in 1896.
Busybod
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Do you know what age it says on her death certificate? If you know when she died we might be able to find her - what was her name at time of death? This might narrow her birth date down a bit.
I don't suppose any other Cassidy's witnessed her second marriage?
Laurina
I don't have a death cert yet, but the informant won't be family,
all i have is this info,
The Times, Thursday, Jan 10, 1963; pg. 5; Issue 55595; col C
Mrs Mary Elizabeth Wilson, of the village of Windynook, co. Durham, the widow who was sentenced to death in 1958 for poisoning two husbands and then reprieved, has died in Holloway prison, London, it was learnt yesterday. She was 71.
Death Dec qtr 1962
Mary E. WILSON aged 73
Islington 5c 1054
witnesses on 2nd cert were ? Haisbitt and M.E.Haisbitt
she was also married to Oliver Leonard in 1956 :)
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I looked at the census for 1891 on Genes Reunited and found this:-
Thomas Cassidy - 48 - Shipyard Labourer
Mary Ann Cassidy - 41 - Wife
John Cassidy - son
Thomas Cassidy - son
Edward Cassidy - son
Philip Cassidy - son
Elizabeth Cassidy - Dtr - age 2
Alice Cassidy
They are living at: Silksworth Row, Sunderland.
Busybod
Her father was called John ;D
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So, according to this, she was born nearer to 1892 than 1888.
Busybod
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Have you discounted this birth?
Mary Elizabeth Cassidy Sep 1889 Lanchester 10a 287
There is also a Julia in this registration district who would fit with the Julia aged 6 d. John/Bridget. Also worth shelling out a few pounds on the 1911 census? There appear to be six or so possible Elizabeth Cassidys.
Anne
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Hi All
One possible other family headed up by a John and Elizabeth. Father John shows as a coke drawer in both 1891 and 1901. Daughter Mary born c. 1889, indexed as Mary L in 1891 and then more clearly in 1901 as Mary E Cassidy in 1901. All the family show as born in Catchgate Durham, except father John with an Irish birth.
Likely this connects with the birth that Anne just posted.
Refs: 1891 - Class: RG12; Piece: 4088; Folio 23; Page 39 and 1901 - RG13; Piece: 4666; Folio: 182; Page: 23
The family in 1901 in Dipton, Durham (RD Lanchester):
John Cassidy 41, coke drawer
Mary Cassidy 42 - shows as Polly in 1891
John Cassidy 21, coal miner
Kate Cassidy 15
Mary E Cassidy 11
Margaret Cassidy 8
Andrew Cassidy 3
Monica
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That one seems a bit more like it Monica,
with the coal mining type job,
but how do i tell for deffinate which family is hers ?
I will have to get the death cert and hope that they didnt just put Durham as her place of birth !,
and hope its the right death ! ???
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Just ideas if all else fails!
- Trial papers may include more personal information (exact date of birth, place of birth etc.)
- You have an address for her at the time of her marriage. Whilst she won't show on the electoral roll at that time, maybe some clues from who she is living with (although at her age, she might just have been boarding).
- Have you anything with her exact date of birth, this might let you cross check against the birth that Anne has found.
- I don't suppose there are any clues from any names she used for children?
- newspaper articles
Fingers crossed on her death information (do English certs. include place of birth?).
Monica
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I've asked the National achives for a quote for her trial papers but they said there could be hundreds of pages therefore couldn't quote !! >:(
as for children she had ,
Sidney, John, Joseph, Cathrine and 2 Winifreds (all dead now)
I shall have to look into how i find newspaper reports
oh well will have to sneak another £7 out of the housekeeping and get that death cert and hope its the right one ;D
thanks to everyone thats posted on here, its nice to know theres such lovely people willing to help ;D
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I would imagine it would cost hundreds from the TNA, there will be thousands of pages to copy! The TNA is not to far from me. I'm on Summer holiday high peak with the children. If all else fails before then, I will have a look in September.
Apart from the nationals, I would look at the regional newspapers. Not sure where you are based, but regional papers in Northumberland/Durham area would have I am sure covered the story in great detail. Perhaps check with Library archive services.
Monica :)
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You could try contacting the Library/Archivist at the Northumberland Gazette (based in Alnwick):
www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/contactus.aspx
Monica
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I've emailed the Gazette, and will call in our tiny local library this week and see what they have to say about archives etc
thanks ;D
A
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Don't know if this helps
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1960/dec/07/convictions-for-capital-murder
Give date of conviction - Mary Elizabeth Wilson 29. 3.58 Leeds Assizes Reprieved
http://www.murderuk.com/poisoners_mary_wilson.html - the story
Laurina
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Hi laurina,
thanks but yes i have seen those,
murder.uk gets her age wrong too , would make her born in 1893 !
:)
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HI
Not sure how much this helps or not but there were no young ladies of either name or combination of names living in Acklington in th3 last census that we have paid access to. But there was one famliy that stood out in that census. since we cant post those details here due to copyright etc..
Will send you a pm regarding that info
but heres is the corresponding family from the 1901 census - sorry I haven't time to post it now but heres the ref for someone else to take a look and see.
on this 1901 census the children strangely shown born Grangetown Glamorgan in Wales which is why they wouldn't show up when searched for earlier
RG13; Piece: 4787; Folio: 109; Page: 17
Wendy
ps will send the PM later for this family
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Just one more thought from me ::)
Was Mary Cassidy's marriage to John Knowles a Roman Catholic Church service or a civil ceremony?
Monica
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it was in the registar office.
I just can't see how I can get any further now as aparently the death cert won't show place of birth, which I thought it might :-[
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I didn't think the death cert would show place of birth, which is a pity :-\ Also a pity that Mary didn't marry in a Catholic Church as the information collected on Catholic marriages will include place of baptism so that a note can be made on the records of the church where someone is baptised that a marriage has taken place.
Monica
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By the way.....I love this description of her:
The dumpy, ginger-haired, short-sighted widow was a hopeless romantic, addicted to pulp magazine love stories and always seeking the man of her dreams to bring her happiness
www.wiki-north-east.co.uk/article.aspx?id=425646
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Arrrggghhhh !!(excuse me while i run round the kitchen , screaming in frustraution !!)
Not only is she an 'embarrassing' relative, she's now a brick wall !!
as for that article ;D makes her sound like a Mills and Boon baddy !! ;D
I have a photo of her, I shall go scan it now to show you (keep your fingrs crossed , I'm rubbish at computer stuff)
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I was going to ask if you had a photo....I've now crossed the line into completely hooked on her life!
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phew that took some doing !!! ;D
(http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/lloydraistrick/marywilson.jpg)[/img]
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:bK0fwZEFpi4J:www.britsoccrim.org/volume8/5Seal08.pdf+fashion+police+mary+wilson&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a
this is the link to a paper done on the public reaction to her reprieve
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Hi
Super photo what a treasure to keep.
;)
Wendy
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She looks such a jolly old gran doesn't she ! ;D
just wish i could find out where she was born !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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She does look like a jolly gran doesn't she, looks like she would be happy baking cakes and buns she does!
Don't lose heart, I am sure you will find Mary's origins. Someone with as much determination as you tends to get there. Not easy though which is surprising given what a cause celebre she was in her later years.
There will be lots of mis-information in the reporting I am sure, as you have found from her variable reported ages. One newspaper shows her as having been born and raised in her early years in Hebburn (not that there is any trace of her there under the surname Cassidy or variants).
www.sundaysun.co.uk/news/north-east-news/2004/11/28/cops-have-last-laugh-79310-14928699/
Apparently, Tyne Tees TV showed a documentary on her - Past Crimes: Unnatural Causes - at the end of 2004. You might want to contact them and see whether they would send you a copy of the programme!
Monica :)
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Well I deff woudn't eat anything she'd baked !!! ;D
My mum says she remembers there being something in the papers about Marys grandchildren taking letters to the prison ? saying 'save our gran'
pity they don't come on here searching for rellies ! ;D
I've just emailed ITV too, :)
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just to add that Itv want £75 for a copy of the documentry :o
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I remember this case which caused quite a stir at the time, I wasn't very old, but one thing that stands out in my mind is when we used to drive past Heworth Cemetery near Felling and not far from Hebburn, my dad used to say that that is where Mrs. Wilson who poisoned all her husbands was buried. Whether or not this was the case, I couldn't be certain - we were called Wilson too, and he always made a point in mentioning it. We were no relation I might add, but thought I would just throw this into the melting pot and if she is there, it might give a few more leads.
Doric
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Thanks for that Doric, i shall have a search around for that cemetery ;D
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Hi again,
Hebburn and Heworth are suburbs of Newcastle upon Tyne, I am sure if you contact the Northumberland and Durham Family History Society (they have a web page) they will help you as much as they can - they are a great bunch of people and the society holds a vast number of records including parish records, births. deaths, marriages etc and almost everything else in between as it were. Give them a try and you may well be surprised as to what they might come up with.
Doric
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Would I have to be a paid up member tho?
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With a general query, they would probably do what they could to help, however should you wish them to do any in depth research then I guess you would be expected to join the society. Cost £13.00
Another avenue to try would be the new library at Newcastle upon Tyne. It is free to join and this can be done on line. Once you have your library card, which they send to, you can access newspapers etc on line by entering your library card number. They are extremely helpful and you can communicate with the team via email and they will try and help without charge. Hope this helps.
Doric
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thanksfor your help, Doric, I'll give them both a try today ;D
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Doric,
Hebburn and Heworth are not, and never were suburbs of Newcastle. They are suburbs of Gateshead, Tyne & Wear. They were all part of Durham until the early 1970's when the new Tyne & Wear county was formed
HM_Dava
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David,
Not for one moment was I trying to be specific about what part of the area Felling and Heworth were in, what I was trying to say was that being on the outskirts of the city (whether it was Gateshead or Newcastle didn't really come into the equation) it was the fact that both the NDFH would have details that might help in this matter as would the newly opened Newcastle Library and they will be fully aware of where these belong to if that be deemed necessary.
Doric
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Here is some of the info Kindly found by the wonderful Monicaleslie and typed up by her for all that may be interested, (thanks again ML !)
Mary Elizabeth Wilson was born, according to the Police Report, on 11 June 1889 (she says 1891) at Annfield Plain, County Durham. Her father was a coal miner.
She had a rather elementary education leaving school when she was 12.
She then went to work as a domestic servant. At first in public houses but later at Tanfield Vicarage for two years and at a farm at Medomsley for about 5 years. She then moved to Jarrow-on-Tyne as a general domestic worker to Mr Knowles, a small grocer. A few weeks later, she says, she married her employer’s son, Mr John Knowles, her first husband.
She is apparently uncertain about the date of her first marriage. She had told me that this took place 45 years ago and in December 1914.
She had six children by this marriage but two died in infancy from whoop cough, she says.........
Source: Medical Report to the DPP – 27 February 1958, H.M. Prison Durham
Mary Elizabeth Cassidy Sep 1889 Lanchester 10a 287 – the one we had as hot tip to the top!
Possible marriage for parents:
Marriages 2nd Qrt 1878
John Cassidy in Lanchester Vol. 10a Pg. 393 – two Marys as possible bride: Mary Raigon or Mary Ward. Possibly Raigon if you see this entry in 1861 Class: RG9; Piece: 3730; Folio: 48; Page: 12
The family we had found headed up by a John and Mary. Father John shows as a coke drawer in both 1891 and 1901. Daughter Mary born c. 1889, indexed as Mary L in 1891 and then more clearly in 1901 as Mary E Cassidy in 1901. All the family show as born in Catchgate Durham, except father John with an Irish birth.
John Cassedy 33
Polly Cassedy 33
John Cassedy 12
James Cassedy 10
Kate Cassedy 6
Mary L Cassedy 2
Michael Regan 30, boarder
RG12; Piece: 4088; Folio 23; Page 3
The family in 1901 in Dipton, Durham (RD Lanchester):
John Cassidy 41, coke drawer
Mary Cassidy 42 - shows as Polly in 1891
John Cassidy 21, coal miner
Kate Cassidy 15
Mary E Cassidy 11
Margaret Cassidy 8
Andrew Cassidy 3
RG13; Piece: 4666; Folio: 182; Page: 23
From the 1911 Census entries I viewed today:
Mary showing as Elizabeth Cassidy is living alone at 3 Prospect Terrace, Annfield Plain. Aged 21 and a domestic servant, b. Catchgate, Durham. She has signed the census form as E. Cassidy. The ‘E’ matches exactly the E she signed in her letters from Holloway Prison in future years.
Her family I think also in Annfield Plain, 10 Dufxxxx Terrace:
John Cassidy, 32, married c. 1903, a coal miner heaver, b. Durham
Elizabeth Cassidy, 26, b. Epsom Surrey
Mary Jane Cassidy, 4, b. Brooms Parish Durham
John Cassidy, 2, b. Stanley Parish Durham
Lawrence Cassidy, 3 months, b. Stanley Parish Durham
John Cassidy, boarder, widower, miner shifter, b. Limerick Ireland
Andrew Cassidy, boarder’s son, 14, miner stoker, b. Brooms Parish Durham
Kate Cassidy, boarder’s daughter, 26, b. Brooms Parish Durham Jumping back to 1881, before Mary’s birth, in Catchgate
John Cassidy 25, lab. in a coke yard (burner)
Mary Cassidy 23 b. Collierley, Durham, England
John Cassidy 1, b. Kyo Durham
Class: RG11; Piece: 4943; Folio: 7; Page: 8
Mary already had form prior to her later offences:
Lanchester P. Court: 25.05.11 – Larceny: 14 Days
Lanchester P. Court: 09.08.11 – False Pretences. Larceny (2): 2 & 1 mos. Consec. 1 month conct
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What a result!
:D
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Another quick update
I got Mary's birth cert , mother is Mary Raigon,
also got her parents wedding cert, 6th may 1878
John Cassidy age 21 coal miner, father John Cassidy , Farmer.
Mary Raigon age 21, father Andrew Raigon, labourer
in the name bit it says 'described on certificate as mary ragan'
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Great to have it all confirmed :)
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just a bit of a problem with the name spelling !
she's Raigon, one of her sisters is Raigon, but everything else is either Ragan Reagan, regan Regen etc , bit of a puzzle ;D
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All down to the fluidity of spelling variations for this time - I would search as r*g*n where you can!
Monica
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Andria, just been catching up with your tree on Ancestry - it's a growing ;D
How about this for the marriage of Andrew and Julia, Mary Elizabeth's maternal grandparents:
Andrew Ragan and Julia Garrity, 2nd Qrt 1862 Durham Vol. 10a Pg 406
And there it may stop with the Irish births for both of them :-\
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Is this Andrew and Julia in 1861, already with children. I think Julia as wife is down for some reason with her surname as first name Garrity Ragan :-\ There are birth places showing on there, Julia from Dublin but can't make out the place name for Andrew in Ireland.
RG9; Piece: 3730; Folio: 48; Page: 12
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Hi Monica ;D
I was wondering about that census, as i couldn't work out what that first name could mean , but now you've said, I can see its a dodgy spelling of gerrity, so thanks for that ;D Its a bit strange tho innit,
I'm going to send for that marrige cert (before the price increase ;D
) as like you say , thats probably as far back as i can go,
will let you know what happens ;D
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Hi I'm really interested in this as Mary was my nans aunty and I know little about it and would really like u to get in touch if you are still on here my nan was Sheila Cassidy had bro Leo and lorry Cassidy will have to speak to my mam to get anything else think they were born in conset durham
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat !
As the rules of the forum don't allow you to put your email address on in public view for everyone to see,
you will need to communicate with the person you want to contact by sending personal messages.
You need to make three posts before you can send a personal message.
If you reply to this one, that will be two messages you've posted, so you'll only need one more after that.
How did you find the Rootschat site ?
Did you just come across it by running a search for your little old lady poisoner ?
Wish she was a relative of mine.
I have one very disreputable lady in my tree, but nothing as interesting as this.
Best wishes,
Joney
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Hi I'm really interested in this as Mary was my nans aunty and I know little about it and would really like u to get in touch if you are still on here my nan was Sheila Cassidy had bro Leo and lorry Cassidy will have to speak to my mam to get anything else think they were born in conset durham
I am still about if you want to get in touch
Andria
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Just remembering this search, Andria. Twas fun ;) Hope you are well!
Welcome to RootsChat, Lillieanne1 :)
Monica
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Hello Monica, long time, no see, hope alls well with you ;D
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Hi fallingonabruise, I have some information about Mary Elizabeth Cassidy. She in my grandmothers sister, my great aunt.
She was baptised in Our Blessed Lady and St. Joseph RC, Brooms, Leadgate.
She was born on 11th June 1889 and baptised on 30th June 1889
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These are her siblings...
Margaret Cassidy is my grandmother
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Sounds very interesting :)
Not sure what you posted the image from, but in case it was your family tree or something, did you notice Francis 1900 is on there twice?
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Thanks for the heads up Ayashi, That was my incompetence, I just put the names in a spreadsheet and posted them, must do better next time LOL
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No worries! I didn't know if it was a mix up with a child born 1890 or something like that. Easily done :)
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Just to add a note ,
Have just got Mary's son's (my grandad)marriage certificate and he was living at Marys house with gertude Blackburn (my gran)
the witnesses were Mary Knowles and John George Ray Russell !
this was in 1936, so it adds proof to her statement that they were lovers for years and everyone knew about it, she didn't start killing them off till 1955
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Andria, where have you been?! I miss your fabulous rellies! I can't believe it is nearly 14 years since the searches for the Merry Widow ;D
Monica
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hello again ! I keep doing a bit of research but so many other things taking up my time , we now live on a narrowboat so spent the last year cruising lol, hope alls well with you xxxx