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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: OZ1977 on Saturday 01 August 09 14:38 BST (UK)
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Hi folks, my first post, so if there is a problem with any of it : be gentle! :-\
I have family papers that tell the story of Solomon HYMES. He was a Polish Jew who was apprenticed in Bath as an Umbrella Maker. Some time in the early 1800's he moved to Cork with his wife and son Jacob. There he had 4 more children - Solomon (or Saul), Joseph, Charlotte and Sarah. He was widowed and remarried in Cork in 1818 to Susan BURROWS and having 3 more children - Edward [my G-G-G-Grandfather], James and Eliza. Susan BURROWS died and Solomon remarried - a widow named Morse (or Moss) who had a daughter Sally(?) in her teens. Widowed a third time, Solomon emigrated to Australia on the Lady McNaugton in November 1836. I have found Solomon and his daughter Eliza arriving in Sydney.
A reference to St Finbar or St Fin Barre is made, being the cemetery in which Susan HYMES (Nee BURROWS) is buried.
I have found HYMES' in trade directories in about 1821 .. so I have a good feeling that the family narrative is close to true.
I have found Charlotte marrying Joseph BROUGHTON in 1827 in R.C. Diocese of Cork and Ross.
I would like to confirm (or correct) this family narrative and naturally flesh out the details of all the players.
What records can you suggest I pursue ? Are parish records indexed and available online?
Looking forward to your help.
Miles
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first to answer some of your questions - parish records for Cork city are not currently available on line anywhere that I know of. The Irish Family History foundation currently has details for the north and east of county Cork.
St. Finnbarr's is a church and a parish in Cork City - sometimes written as Finn Barr
from Slaters directory of 1846 :
Joseph Hymes, umbrella maker, Broad lane
Solomon Hymes, boot maker, 1, 15, 16 & 17 Arcade
link : http://www.failteromhat.com/slater/0054.pdf
Shane
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Thanks Shane .... being a long way from Cork, I was hoping for something online .. but no matter.
The HYMESes you list look like the sons of my Solomon.
From Pigot & Co Provincial Directory of Ireland 1824 : Munster, I know about
HYMES, Jacob Umbrella Maker 21 Grand Parade
As to St Finbar ... is there a cemetery associated with it? Is anyone aware of transcriptions of headstones? Or index of burials? Will the church search if I inquire?
Cheers
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Hi just saw your post today.
Have you looked up the " irish civil registration 1845 -1958" just google it
and scroll down to Irish civil BMD1845-1958 and key in Hymes in surname search "Cork". A few come up -
Jame Hymes b.1847 d 1871
William Henry Hymes b.1874
There are another few with slightly different spellings -
Joseph Hames ? b 1870 Cork
Arthur Haymes b Apr-June 1882
Also searched Broughton - nothing came up for Charlotte or Joseph but there were lots of Broughtons.
I live near St. Finbarrs Cemetary and some of my own family are buried there so next time I visit I will see if I can locate a grave for any of your Hymes.
Would you be able to give me a more exact date of death as all the burials are logged according to date of burial/death. St. Finbarrs Cemetary is totally separate from St. Finbarrs Cathedral. St. Finbarrs Cathedral is a Protestant Cathedral in Sharman Crawford Street. St. Finbarrs Cemetary is for all denominations and is located at Glasheen Road about two miles from the City Centre.
Mary
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Mary,
Thank you for your contribution and offer to look for my ancestors in the Finbar cemetery.
I am looking before 1845 mainly. So although I will investigate for HYMES in the register, at first I am trying to connect Solomon HYMES to the wives he is supposedly had.
I will attempt to provide some date ranges (narrow as possible) to make your offer practical. I am very excited to think I may have evidence soon.
I shall forward any details as soon as possible.
Regards
Miles
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Hi Miles,
Just to let you know I havn't forgotten you.
I went to St. Finbarrs Cemetery in Glasheen Road before Christmas and spoke with the Manager, unfortunately he couldn't help as I didn't have a date. I had a lovely stroll there for a few hours. It was lovely and sunny, the grass was covered with frost and it was heavenly to stroll around looking at all the headstones. Some of the older headstones are very clear but some are so bad you couldn't make them out. There are over 1000 headstones.
While there I luckily came across another headstone for a lady in England. I had found some of her family buried in West Cork neither of us knew that any of her family were buried in St. Finbarrs so that was a nice surprise. I emailed her the photo. So I always keep my eyes open for opportunites for other people too.
I also went to St. Finbarrs Cathedral and looked at all their inscriptions but no luck.
Next week when things have settled I will go to a couple of the City Centre churches (some of them have computerised records) to see if anything on any of the people you mentioned.
Another item I came across was a " Poor Removals from England to Ireland"(just google that)
between Jan 1867 -Dec 1869 for a James Hymes. He was from Cork and encountered hard times in Liverpool so was removed back to Cork. Is that your James I wonder?
Will let you know if I get anything.
Hope Christmas was great and Happy New Year
Mary
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Have not had much luck in the search for your ancestors.
Went to two City Centre Catholic churches -nothing found in one -St. Finbars South, Dunbar Street. The other one I visited the marriages for the 1800's are not fully computerised yet, but the archivist offered to go through the earlier records for me ( for both Solomon and Charlotte) which might take some time as the writing is tiny and hard to decipher. He will contact me if he gets something.
Could it be possible that Solomon married Susan Burrows in St. Finbarrs Cathedral ( Church of Ireland) as there are quite a few Burrowes ( note e in spelling) listed for St. Finbarrs in records that I have up to 1804?
Do you know for certain that Charlotte married in a Catholic Church to R Broughton?
I came across two headstones for Burrowes in St. Finbarrs Cemetery but unfortunately nothing on them for Susan Hymes (nee Burrows).
Sorry that the news isn't good. As you know without dates or exact locations of marriages it is very difficult.
Will let you know if I get anything.
Mary
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Susan, You are a marvel for doing this.
Solomon was a Jew so I cannot vouch for which church any ceremony may have taken place. I guess the worst case is that the R.C. marriage was not my Charlotte and Joseph.
Anyway, I am toiling away here for more specific details.
Thanks again for your initiative.
Miles
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Miles,
Thanks for
Have you tried the Irish Jewish Records in Dublin. Just google Jewish Genealogical Society Ireland and there is a contact email and telephone number there. It is a free service unless they have to employ a genealogist to search on your behalf. Their marriage records are for 1844 -2001 only so would not be good for you. They might have other records which might help you.
There is another site www.jewishireland.org which might shed some light on things for you.
I visited the Jewish Cemetery at Curragh Kippane but unfortunately it is permanently locked. I need to contact the keyholder to get access and see if the head stones are legible and I might be able to get some information from them if any of your Hymes have been buried there.
That's it for now
Mary ( not Susan!!!)
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I was in Cork City Library recently and enquired about Cork Jews 1800 to 1840 hoping to get some new information for you. The staff were extremely helpful and I got a little information from "The Jews or Ireland from earliest times to the year 1910" by Louis Hyman publiished 1972.
Quotation-
" Isaac Solomon, the silversmith, is the only Jew known to have stayed on in Cork in the 19th Century. Sir John Carr, the English traveller, found a few Jews there in 1805. West's Directory of Cork and it's Environment (1810) mentions Solomon Hymes (Hyams) umbrella maker, of Broad Lane. Solomon's son Joseph, was carrying on the family business in Broad Lane in 1845, but by 1870 had transferred it to 64 North Main Street, opposite Castle Street. The name of Jacob Hymes, umbrella maker, of 21 Grand Parade, occurs in the Cork Section of the Dublin Directory for 1824, and a Jacob E. Hymes lived in Blarney, Co. Cork in 1870. The Cork Mercantile Directory for 1842-43 gives Solomon Hynes (sic) ladies shoemaker of 1 Royal Arcade, and Mrs. Eliza Hynes(sic) of 61 Douglas Street. In or about 1840 three sisters , Sarah, Eliza and Esther Hyams, arrived in Sydney from Cork and were soon married, Sarah to Lewis, son of Barnett Cohen of London, Eliza to Samuel, son of Henry and Caroline Cohen of Plymouth, and Esther to one Aarons. Before 1835 , a Michael (?) Hyams performed the duty of mohel in Sydney".
Are these three sisters Solomon's daughters?
There is another interesting little bit about a C. Haim a witness at a Schweitzer/Levy wedding in Limerick but it is thought that in all probability that he was from Cork and founder of the Hymes (Hyams) family which first appears in Cork Records in 1810.
Don't know how relevant this is. I am still hoping to visit the Jewish Cemetery at Curraghkippane hopefully in the next few weeks. Will be on again then.
Mary
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The cemetery at Curraghkippane was opened in 1887 so unlikely that the Hymes are buried there. St Finbarr's opened mid 19th century and St Joseph's opened 1871. There was however a Jewish cemetery opened in the 1700/1800s in Kemp Street, off Douglas Street. Don't know if there are any records but you could try writing to
Irish Jewish Museum
3 Walworth Road,
South Circular Roar,
Dublin 8
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Hi Miles
We may be related! Or maybe not. If only we had a time machine to take us back to the 1830s.
I have found the grave of an Eliza Hyams in St. Kilda Melbourne. She is definitely my relative. On the head stone it is written in hebrew (but faded) daughter of "r" (this might mean rabbi?) Shl??? and wife of Shmuel (Samuel) ... the Shl??? may very well be Shlomo, the hebrew for Solomon. She is burried with Samuel Henry Cohen, and they share the same head stone. He is also my relative.
The head stone dates seem to match your story. Eliza died 18 February 1881 aged 57. This means she was born in 1823 / 1824. Given your Solomon re-married in 1818 and then had 3 kids with Eliza third, the timing indicates a 1823 or 1824 birthdate as a real possibility. If as the theory goes that Solomon and Eliza came out on the Lady McNaughton in 1836, then Eliza would have been 12 or 13 at that time and it would have made sense that she travel with her father.
Do you have a ship's passenger list? I don't yet! A copy exists as a Xerox in the NSW State Records for Miscellaneous Assisted Immigrants 1828-1843 (COD112 at MLA1267-15 pp.223-72).
My family legend (with no proof) was that our Eliza was born in Ireland. We have been trying to identify her father. Our options were Michael the Mohel of Sydney, Joseph the Convict (which interestingly enough helped us stumble across and dismiss Joseph the umbrella maker, who is now possibly her half brother according to your account) and now through you to Solomon his father, a search we had never done until we stumbled upon your post which seems to connect some dots.
The reason we had not stumbled on Solomon was we were searching for Hyams not Hymes - and if Solomon is the right father, we wonder when the name changed - in Ireland or on landing here? It is only since we found her grave last week that we have started to research Shlomo / Solomon.
I would be keen to share our documented proof of Eliza's family tree right through to today if you are interested ... assuming that she is YOUR Eliza! And we cannot be 100% sure despite the dates and stories seeming to match. Of course what we need to find is more documented proof.
What raises some serious doubts is that there appears to be 2 Eliza Hyams at the same time and both married to a Samuel Cohen! Or perhaps some inaccuracies in recorded "history" in books.
There is Eliza Hyams according to the book (if accurate) "The Jews of Ireland ... to 1910" (Hyman, 1972) who married Samuel, son of Henry and Caroline Cohen of Plymouth. This is definitely not our Eliza. According to the book that Eliza also had 2 sisters who also came to Australia in or around 1840 - Sarah and Esther. Your family history includes a half sister Sarah and an unknown younger half sister - perhaps Sally. So we cannot rule out that your family was related to this Eliza and not our Eliza. Either the book is inaccurate on two key points OR there were 2 Elizas here!
Our Eliza married Samuel Henry Cohen, son of Henry and Elizabeth Cohen. Henry Cohen was a wealthy businessman in London and sent as a convict to Australia - a well documented history.
The things that seem to connect some dots to say we share the same Eliza:
- Family folklore claiming Irish roots
- The Shl??? on our Eliza's new found grave stone possibly being Shlomo (Solomon)
- The 1818 marriage date of Solomon and Susan
- Eliza Hymes birth being between 1823 / 1824 based on her death 18 February, 1881 at age 57.
- dates for Michael Hyams the Mohel and Joseph Hyams not matching our Eliza's dates very well
Anything you have that might connect some more dots would be really helpful.
Ships log of passengers?
Birth certificates :-)
Solomon's will?
Thanks
Simon
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It has been a while since I had the time to continue my HYMES research, but thanks to all replies for your contributions.
Mary, thank you especially, that last post was excellent. I will be using it immediately to further my research.
Simon, we ARE related via the old man, Solomon HYMES. I shall contact you directly.
Cheers all
Miles