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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Bedfordshire => Topic started by: smunn02 on Wednesday 29 July 09 15:57 BST (UK)
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Hi all
I started researching my family tree yesterday and had a LOT of luck, managing to pin down one part of the tree as far back as the 1620's (where we were still in bedfordshire, oddly); however where I'm having a lot of trouble is my paternal grandfathers parents - my father died in 1984 and I can't contact my grandfather for info, so was hoping that someone else could help =)
I have photographs of my family, and also a GEDCOM file of the tree if that would help anyone.
Steven Munn
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I started researching my family tree yesterday and had a LOT of luck, managing to pin down one part of the tree as far back as the 1620's
How have you manage that? ive been doing it three years and still not got confirmed sources !!
I would be interested in looking at your gedcom if the offer is open to anyone :)
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I got *very* lucky and managed to come across a semi-famous relative in the early 1800s who is pretty well documented, and back from there were some other people with the same relative who were able to share their info - between us we managed to get to a confirmed birth/death/full name/spouse/children in 1643, and we know his father's name but not a lot else. That's just one tiny branch though, everywhere else I'm really stuck; and my brother is convinced we're descended from Mary Queen Of Scots so I'm pretty keen to disprove that if it's wrong!
Edit: Also the 1643 dude emigrated to USA and died there so he has some lovely documents I'm tryng to track down too =D Will add the GEDCOM when I work out how to attatch.
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GEDCOM:
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These are possible siblings of Arthur
Dec Qtr 1918
Munn Victor R (Young) Luton 3b 552
Mar Qtr 1921
MUNN Donald C (Young) Luton 3b 672
Mar Qtr 1922
Munn Arthur R (Young) Luton 3b 670
Sep Qtr 1924
Munn Rosa I E (Young ) Luton 3b 595
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Hello smunn02 and welcome to RootsChat
The etiquette here is that we do not post information on the living (due to identity theft, privacyall of the usual reasons)
There is a pM system for those details, but you need to have made 3 posts before you can use the system
The mods may remove some information - but we will see if we can find Arthur's parents for a start
Suz
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Thank you, I should have added I have his (millions of!) siblings =)
Edit: Ah sorry, will edit the orginal message accordingly as far as possible.
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Possible Marriage Sep Qtr 1915
Henry J Munn - Wandsworth 1d 2136
Lilian Young - Wandsworth
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I think you need Arthur Roland's marriage or birth cert to be certain of parentage-as even if this looks the most likely marriage - there are other possibilities
certificates can be ordered online (£7 from GRO) we should then be able to trace further back
Suz
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Thank you very much, I've ordered his birth certficate, and have just viewed the marriage record ... it does seem the most likely, also looked at the 1891 census for henry J and he appears to be a lodger so not much luck finding family there...for some reason I can't find him on 1881 census =/
I might have a bit of a dig and see what I can find in terms of death stuff, I think that's likely to give a good view.
EDIT: I have found death info of an Eliza Lilian Young, b 12/10/1888 who died in Luton on Jan 23 1968...it looks pretty good, but if the name on marriage is Lilian Young, how likely is it that she may have used Eliza? You guys are the experts =)
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Hi
Death reg would give age at death -so that could help -but death certs give name of informant and very little else in the way of family information -you may get husband of... or some such information
Do you have henry J munn in 1901???
I wondered if he may have been in the armed forces -as (if it is the correct couple) they married 1915 and 1st child b 1918 - they may have married just efore he went to war???
Only a guess though
suz
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re Henry J in the war - I have found a scan of WWI medals card for a Henry J Munn, however it says he died in 1915 so I don' think i can be him since there were 6 children minimum born after this time. On the other hand, there is an 8 year gap between child 1 and child 2; inconsistent with the 2-3 year gaps with all the other children; this is also a large period of WWI so presumably even if this dead Henry isn't *the* henry, then Henry J must have been doing something in the war.
Edit: Also looking at it, the eldest of the children Harry (1910 - I have the birth details, born in Wandsworth!) was 5 years before the marriage! I remember him though, very well. He grew rhubarb =D
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Hi,
The Henry J Munn you found as a lodger in 1891 - was he the one aged 21 and living in Dartford???
This would make him c 45 yrs of age when he married???
There are several Henry J Munns in various parts of the country - I think it may be as well to await the arrival of the marriage cert
Better to be certain than chase the wrong line
Suz
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have you checked the 1911?
on your GEDCOM..you have a Harry Victor Munn b1910.. I did a quick search and found a Harry V living with his parents.
I will send you a PM as i don't think i am allowed to post Transcripts of the 1911 yet.
Maybe Harry Victor doesn't belong to the same family as the others 8 year gap?.
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I think you're right, though I was certain there was a Harry...but in the face of the evidence it seems my mind must be playing tricks on me!
The lodger, yeah...I'm discounting him. There are a heap of Henry J's around there for some reason!
Edit: Presumably the 1921 census will show the eldest child - how does it work with the census + when they release the information?
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The census is usually closed for 100years
But the 1911 cennsus has been released early (should have been 2011-was released this year) but not all details will be released until 2011 (disability details etc)
census available to view mainly on pay sites-1881 free at family search)
census are from 1841-1911
1911 at the moment is pay per view for everyone -unless you go to Kew -itwill be free to view at various libraries , archives shortly though
I think this is harry Victors family in 1901
5 Stewart lane West attersea
George T Munn head M 32 Railway Engine Driver Edgware Rd
Elizabeth wife 29 Clapham Surrey
Winifred E daughter 2 battersea
RG13 443 167 20
Marriage freeBMD
Jun qtr 1897
Wandsworth
George T Munn
Elizabeth cannandine
1d 1897
I had a quick look at your gedcom - and quite a lot of it seems to be copied from Ancestry trees.
I would suggest checking the research yourself - there are a lot of trees around which are "suspect" and you really need to satisfy yourself the informatin is correct.
trees get altered - sometimes people alter them to "fit" their information.
I no longer have my tree on line as a new researcher had 2 names similar to names I have - she altered the p.o.b. of all on my tree - and admitted that her family would be amazed at how much work she had done in a week !!! So now there is a tree doing the rounds which is completely make believe
If you need any tips on research -here is the place to ask
RootsChatters are a friendly bunch and there is always someone willing to help
Suz
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Thank you; I think I'm discounting Harry Victor altogether in the light of some new stuff.
With regards to other trees - I completely agree; there are a LOT of people I've taken out due to insufficient evidence. I'm not overly fussed about siblings; however I have physical evidence of *most* of the 'important figures' - the mothers and fathers of the main line I'm getting back.
One problem I've come across is the really early ones - I can prove via documents to William Nottingham (1804-1882) however before that I'm not really sure what documents exist - would it be possible to request birth certificates for, say, his father/granfather/great grandfather/great great grandfather? (1775-1819, 1737-1824, 1713-1784 and 1694-1726 respectively) - I have dates and places of birth, death and so on for each; and I'm chasing up some emigration/death documentation currently for his namesake b1643 who emigrated to the USA and died there....but if I get those okay, it leaves a big four-generation document hole. Plus on the site I'm using you have to use one credit to view/save the document scan, and another to attatch it to the person; so on most cases I've printed it out rather than attatch it.
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I would like to share also these two wonderful people I've managed to find an awful lot about:
(http://o.mfcreative.com/f2/file12/objects/2/6/5/c26597c9-17ac-4697-8786-8ba3a58a4397-3.jpg) (http://o.mfcreative.com/f2/file08/objects/4/9/6/849667d2-1115-43ca-9901-37f5312c81bf-3.jpg)
James (1832-1912) and Elizabeth (1834 – 1903) Nottingham (nee Ireland); my paternal great great great great grandparents.
They are by far and away my most documented people so far.
They married on 2nd Feb 1856. James was a field watcher aged 8, then a servant (groom) at 18; before spending the rest of his life as a market gardener + publican; he ran the Old Sugar Loaf in Vinegar Hill which was passed down to one of his children (who, in one census or another, was running it age 24); and later in life he ran the Rose + Crown in Upper Caldicote, where he died.
I have slightly less about Elizabeth, however both have an unbroken line of documents running from their births through the 41, 51, 61, 71, 81, 91 and 01 census including their marriage and deaths. I'd really like to find James on the 1911 Census if anyon can help to 'finsh him off' so to speak!
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Official registration for BMD's was introduced Sept 1837
However it was not compulsory in the beginning
many registered but some didn't
pre 1837 you need to look at Church records(baptism, marriage , burial, parish records, locate wills, newspaper reports, etc
Sometimes baptisms didn't take place until a few months'years after birth-sometimes more than 1 child would be baptised at the same time - although many were baptised within a month of birth . So you have to be careful you don't mistake some of the children as twins/triplets
Sometimes the baptism date is the nearest you will get - I have one who is described as "born Spring -baptised the day the first stone of the chapel was laid" -so then it leads to local history !!
The IGI is quite a good source - not all areas are transcribed yet, and you have to treat "member submitted" with caution. Some are OK -others no more than a guess
"Extracted " records are more reliable -but even those are (like most records) sometimes mistranscribed.
I would be interested to hear what documents you have for William Nottingham 1804-1882. The only death reg's I can find for William Nottingham in 1882 -don't give approx year of birth as 1804???
Death certificates are not always correct -the ages are what the informant gave
Where was William born - he may be on IGI
I know you say you are not fussed on siblings -but they can be useful in finding you have the correct person
eg say you found fred bloggs b c.1800 in leicester -and you need to find his birth/baptism on IGI
there may be 10 fred Bloggs c.1800
5 of them may be born leics
but if you have details of siblings you can then check to see which fredBloggs is baptised to the same parents as his known siblings
Hope this helps - you are doing well to be so sensilbe at the beginning of your research
Suz
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Lovely photographs
I'll have a look for you
Suz
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William Nottingham (abt 1804- mar 1882); looking through the absolute forest load of papers spread out across my living room...the documents I have that directly refer to him are:
Marriage to Mary Lee info, 1 jan 1837
1861 census (rough age, exact address 104 Warden Lane, Old Warden + occupation Ag.labourer)
1871 census (same as above)
Death info mar quarter 1882
Looking at it I could add more - I notice 1881 is missing, and pre 61. I thought that lot was okay to class him as a fairly well documented person, I was quite pleased as an amateur attempt =)
As for where he was born -I'm putting it down as a fairly safe assumption that it was Old Warden, Bedfordshire, England since his father John married Elizabeth Searle on 17 Apr 1797 in Old Warden, and he died in June 1819 in Old Warden. It's conceiveable though that William may not have been born there.
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Updated GEDCOM avaliable:
You may notice very tentative stretches back to the 15-somethings. Don't take those too seriously since I'm unable to find barely any documentation and a lot of it seems to hinge on two people changing their name, or forgetting how to spell it. I'm only really keeping it there since there's nobody to replace them, and I'm happy to assume it's wrong unless someone gives me some proof =)
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Hi -a few little comments
William Nottingham in 1861 -address is just Warden lane -no number - in early census -especially in rural areas it is unusual to have a house number -sometinmes not even a road
No 104 is a census reference no - the schedule no - which is always in 1st column -if the house had a number it would be in the 2nd column with the road name
I haven't found William and mary pre 1861 -or son John?
maybe they are mistranscribed
James Nottingham is pretty consistent with his d.o.b. and p.o.b. until 1891/1901 1891 p.o.b. Southill, 1901 b1934 Northill
1911 he is back to being b Haynes
he can be found on 1911 census - you need to buy credits to access fully
We are not allowed (copyright issues) to post transcripts of 1911 census
Index is free to view and James Nottingham is age 79 widower B haynes living Caldecote with daughter jane and her husband and children-don't think they are living in the pub??
1841 I think james is a field Worker -not watcher!!!!
1861 Horsekeeper(farmer)
1871 Laourer - but he is living in P.H. - probably Elizabth ran it
1881 Beerhousekeeper and farmer 60 acres (no name of pub - but it seems you know which one it was )
1891 Rose & Crown Publican and gardener
1901 Rose& Crown Innkeeper and market gardener
1911-no occ given
Hope this helps
Suz
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Suzard that's excellent, thank you! Yeah we know the name of the pub as there are some historical records for the pub which happen to give the name of the publican + also photo =)
Some great info there that I've been able to tidy James up with a bit, also gives Elizabeth a little bit more too =)
I can give you a little info regarding William's son John however from parish + suchlike records - most interesting bit I've found is that in in 1871 at age 21 he is living with + servant to The Hon. George Henley Ongley who owned land in the churchyard in the parish of Eversholt, possibly descended (bastard son who was paid off from what I can piece together, he's not in Debretts and so on) from Robert Henley-Ongley, 1st Baron Ongley of Old Warden.
Mary Lee I have on the 1861 census as a Lacemaker living in Old Warden, age 53. I can't find her on any others though, the only other info of hers I have is a source for her birth in Blunham April 1808 (rumoured 21st aprl but unsourced) and an unsourced death in sept 1860.
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For someone just doing this research for one day ...you know a lot !!! :)
I started researching my family tree yesterday and had a LOT of luck, managing to pin down one part of the tree as far back as the 1620's (where we were still in bedfordshire,
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Hehe well thank you :)
A lot of the family is helping too - my mum keeps phoning with things, and my brother is doing his dads side entirely by himself. We spent half yesterday going round the graveyards to find relatives. I think it helps that nobody's moved from Bedfordshire!
Plus of course some great info from people here! I'm absolutely fascinated with it; especially James + Elizabeth. I'm thinking of having their pictures framed!
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Mary Lee I have on the 1861 census as a Lacemaker living in Old Warden, age 53. I can't find her on any others though, the only other info of hers I have is a source for her birth in Blunham April 1808 (rumoured 21st aprl but unsourced) and an unsourced death in sept 1860.
if mary is on 1861 census -then her death wouldn't have been in 1860!!!!!!
Suz
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It wasn't; it was Sep 1868 aged 60. Typo in original message, sorry xD
This however has no document source; it's a collaboration of 18 other trees with the same relative (3 other trees had similar name and DOB etc but were discounted because they didn't have the exact same documented census information as me).
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there is a death reg FreeBMD
Mary Nottingham
age 62
Sept qtr 1868
Biggleswade district
3b 251
and I have found William and mary in 1851 with 7 chi;dren!
Suz
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That looks like the lass =)
I have 7 children listed also; James, William, Ann, Lucy Ann, John. James we know was the inkeeper; I have very little details on the others. Thank you for confirming the date of death - is 62 given as an approximate or exact age? I have a source for her being 60.
Edit: Oops, missed some out. Children + dates I have listed:
James 1832
William 1834
Charles 1836
Ann 1837
Lucy Ann 1846
John 1850
Lucy 1855
Looking at it...the second Lucy is after the '51 census. She is listed on the '61 as child of Mary but the 'first' Lucy, Lucy Ann has no souces. If she is wrong , that takes me down to just six children. Who do I not have? Also a MASSIVE gap between Ann and John (and they are both listed on the 61/71 censuses). That would make Ann 47 when she had her final child, even though se is listed on the Census that sems veryvery old, even for now.
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Lucy would make 8 children -she wasn't born until after 1851 census
62 would be age given by informant
check it out on freeBMD
here we are 1851 - name written as Nott - too lazy to put full name i expect!!!
Warden lane Warden Bedds
William Nott head M 45 ag lab Hawnes beds
Mary wife 43 Blunham
James son 19 ag lab Hawnes
William son 17 ag lab hawnes
Charles son 15 Jockey Hawnes
Ann daughter 12 Straw Plaiter hawnes
Thomas son 10 ag lab Hawnes
Emma daughter 8 Straw Plaiter hawnes
John son 1 Warden
William Bones Lodger U 40 ag lab Warden
HO107 1753 642 12
Suz
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by the way 47 isn't unusual for a woman to have a child - my Gran had her first child when she was 17 and her last (my Dad) when she was 47 -all with the same husband who was a lot older than her (he was 66 when Dad was born) - I think it was too much fresh food and fresh air- and a glass of ale instead of a cup of tea!!!!
Suz
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By the way - you missed out Thomas and Emma
Suz
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Ah good!
Thank you very much, have updated everyone as appropriate - you're a wonderful mine of information in a field where I'm a mere newborn!
I've finally got round to adding James' death source too, so now I'm happy with the sheer volume of documentation for him!
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you need to check the birth years on Free BMD (post Sept qtr 1837) to have a more accurate picture
If yu can find the baptisms of the children you may find they had siblings who died in infancy -it wasn't unusual if a chld died to name alater child after them
Suz
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I've done some digging on the two pubs James Nottingham ran and have come across some interesting info in historical records.
The 1871 Census shows James as a Labourer living in the Old Sugar Loaf in Upper Caldicote, and it was suggested that maybe Elizabeth was running it. However thanks to the document GK35/7: "conveyance of "dilapidated" cottages by Alfred White to William Field of Biggleswade, carpenter for £50: 1859;"; I've discovered that the Old Sugar Loaf was actually still being completed in 1871 by carpenter William Field, and James & Elizabeth were living 'on site' - James was labouring to help complete the pub!
He was given the first lease granted, listed as "since one year past" in 1872 (HF143/1: Register of Alehouse Licences - Biggleswade Petty Sessional Division: 1872-1873;)
However in the 1881 Census he is still listed by profession as the beerhousekeeper - in 1878 the licence + lease actually went to his eldest son, Joseph (- HF143/3: Register of Alehouse Licences - Biggleswade Petty Sessional Division: 1878-1881) who ran the pub until 1886 when a James Marshall took over (HF143/4: Register of Alehouse Licences - Biggleswade Petty Sessional Division: 1882-1890;).
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Regarding James' second pub - The Rose & Crown; searching through similar records has helped also.
In 1899 the property was described as the Rose & Crown (formerly Rose), with yards, orchards, stables, barns, sheds and outbuildings ["This does not appear to belong to the Vendors & is not in the particulars of Sale"] and land in Upper Caldecote of 2a 1r 18p adjoining Rose & Crown and all in occupation of James Nottingham. (Z1039/34/2a: conveyance of licensed premises from Wells & Company to Wells & Winch: 1899;)
The Nottingham's ran the pub from 1886-1911 inclusive;
1886-1904: James Nottingham; until his retirement (HF143/5: Register of Alehouse Licences - Biggleswade Petty Sessional Division: 1891-1900; HF143/6: Register of Alehouse Licences - Biggleswade Petty Sessional Division: 1900-1914;)
1904-1908: his son Joseph Nottingham; (HF143/6: Register of Alehouse Licences - Biggleswade Petty Sessional Division: 1900-1914;)
1908-1911: On the death of Joseph, his widow Martha Nottingham; (HF143/6: Register of Alehouse Licences - Biggleswade Petty Sessional Division: 1900-1914;) when in 1911 it left the family for good...
possibly due to her death but I have no sources for Martha's death.
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(http://www.bedfordshire.gov.uk/CommunityAndLiving/ArchivesAndRecordOffice/CommunityArchives/UpperCaldecote/UpperCaldImages/former%20Sugar%20Loaf%20Vinegar%20Hill%20July%202007_351x242.jpg) The former Old Sugar Loaf (closed as a beerhouse in 1957)
(http://myancestry.org/pictures/UpperCaldecoteBuilding.jpg) The former Rose & Crown (demolished 2003)
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The Munn's you are searching for are my relatives
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Hi,
My uncles are roland, victor, grandvill, aunt Ivy ect.
Small world my grandmother is lilian munn ( young)
Kta921
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You must be related to me in some way - the only niece I'm aware of by name is Sandra
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See my Ancestry tree "LUGSDIN/Lugsden" for your Sumpter line
What's the evidence that James Sumpter's wife was Elizabeth Deere?
David