RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: bradbrend on Wednesday 29 July 09 05:11 BST (UK)
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Ga' day from Australia,
To My wife's surprise she has just discovered her father was born 1901 in Sans Souci Lodge, Sans Souci Park Belfast and that his father (her Grandfather) was a Taylor in Hillman St Belfast. What a surprise. She only ever new them as farmers who worked the land in Ballymena where she was born and raised. We would be pleased if anyone could give us any information on Sans Souci Lodge. We presume it was a boarding house, if so, we wonder why he would board if he was married with a child and had a business. Thanks
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Hi,
San Souci Park is described as a leafy, tree-lined avenue so it is possible that the family may have named their home as San Souci Lodge. I cannot find any Taylors there in the 1911 census but a Taylor couple are living in Hillman Street with a young family.
Regards
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Is Taylor the surname or is father's occupation tailor? On the certificate is the birth address listed as well as the residence of the father? Could have been a private nursing home.
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Hi Bradbrend,
I have had a look at old survey maps for the area.
Sans Souci Park is off the Malone Road in the south of the city. It appears from maps covering 1851-1883 that there was a single house with grounds and a gate lodge where Sans Souci Park now is. The house is named "Sans Souci". I reckon that the gate lodge to the house is the "Lodge" you refer to. In maps covering 1883-1920 the Gate lodge is there but the main house has gone and the road named Sans Souci Park is now formed with some houses built/developed. In the maps covering 1920-1952 the gate lodge has gone. The site of it is now No. 68 Malone Road (including the side gardens) which is a large semi-detached house on the corner of Malone Road and Sans Souci Park.
This street directory site may be some help. http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/
Sans Souci is a French term meaning "without care", in other words, "no worries".
Hopefull there should be a photo of 66-68 Malone Road attached - found on Google images - 68 is the right side of the house.
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Hi.
Sans Souci Lodge was more than likely the gate lodge to Sans Souci House. Your relative may have worked for the owners of the Big House, perhaps as a gardener. When I was a kid there were still a number of gate lodges still about the Malone Road. Only one I can think of that's still standing is across the road from Sans Souci, on the left corner of Derryvolgie Ave.
Holyrood House next to Sans Souci also had a lodge, but I think it's long gone since Queen's University built their Halls of Residence there.
Two Taylor families in Hillman St., in 1907 street directory from Lennon Wylie website.
8 Hillman Street.
Robert Taylor, fitter.
236 Hillman Street.
W. Taylor, clerk.
Regards,
Dixie
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A big thank you to all of you wonderful people who took the time to do some research on my behalf.
I do apologies in that I was not specific in my query and my spelling of tailor did not help. The family name is Bamber, the g/father (Samuel) was a Tailor by profession.
The place of birth and fathers residence are the same Sans Souci Lodge.
I had a look at Lennonylie site (thank you) and there is a Balmber Saml., - Taylor. 209 Hillman St. Surname is spelt differently but this can still happen today.
"your pete" info confirms there was a lodge to the main house but the map 1883-1920 shows the main house had gone, so perhaps they bought or rented the gate lodge.
Again thank you all for your input
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OOPS! sorry, done it again, should be Balmber Saml., Tailor
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Hillman Street, along with a few other local streets, appears to have been left out of the 1911 census for the Duncairn area. Two others I know of are Cosgrove and Copperfield Streets.
Dixie
***** Found it in Dock Ward, sorry about that. My wife told me I was on the wrong side of Duncairn Gardens for it.
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Thank you DixieDee
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Was your wife's husband named John? If yes, could this be the family in 1911:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001363894/
Just a thought:
Note that the John is recorded as grandson and the only other person named as married is Samuel, son of head of household who is also a Samuel. Samuel, John's dad, does not have a wife recorded on the return (only females are noted as single). Could it be that Samuel was originally a tailor in Belfast, and something happened to his wife (he is not recorded as widowed, rather married) and he returned to Ballymena to have support of family in bringing up John, and that he reverted to being a farmer along with his own father, also a Samuel? Or, one of the single females is actually his wife and wrongly recorded as single and given age of Samuel snr, Samuel has just returned to Ballymena to learn the ropes in order to take over from his father.
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Hi,
I may be a little confused, but your wife's memory of being born and raised on a farm near Ballymena ties in with the details of a Bamber couple raising a family in the 1870s in the Galgorm district of Ballymena. The same family were still there in the 1911 census. They are described as farmers. There is a head of family, Samuel, age 64 and a son, Samuel age 35 also a farmer, and a grandson, John. The younger Samuel is married but no wife is listed. The elder Samuel is a widow and three daughters are still living at home.
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Kingskerswell......snap, we have had same thought....see my post above yours.
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A search of Grave Inscriptions for Ballymena has:
a 1918 stone in the Old Churchyard, Ahoghill - it was erected by Samuel Bamber of Galgorm Parks
and partly reads:
"...his father and mother Samuel Bamber who died.....1918 aged 73 years Margaret Bamber who died.......1886 aged 42 years........his brother John who died.......1896 aged 27 years And his sister who died.....1917 aged 44 years Also his sister Isabella Boyd Lennox who died.....1952 aged 68 years"
above found at and partly quoted from the Inscriptions found online at The Braid website.
Full details can be read by searching Bamber at:
http://www.thebraid.com/genealogy.aspx
which has the above and other Bamber entries.
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Was your wife's husband named John? If yes, could this be the family in 1911:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001363894/
Just a thought:
Note that the John is recorded as grandson and the only other person named as married is Samuel, son of head of household who is also a Samuel. Samuel, John's dad, does not have a wife recorded on the return (only females are noted as single). Could it be that Samuel was originally a tailor in Belfast, and something happened to his wife (he is not recorded as widowed, rather married) and he returned to Ballymena to have support of family in bringing up John, and that he reverted to being a farmer along with his own father, also a Samuel? Or, one of the single females is actually his wife and wrongly recorded as single and given age of Samuel snr, Samuel has just returned to Ballymena to learn the ropes in order to take over from his father.
Thank you scotmum
Good thinking. My wife's father was John, same John in the census and we too came to the conclusion the grandfather returned to take over the farm. My wife remembers her g/father and aunts (who did not marry until later in life) listed on the census. As previously stated she was just so surprised having known her g/father & g/mother and having been raised in the same house (and nursed him in later years) was anything but a farmer. His wife is not on the census obviously elsewhere.
Thanks for your input
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A search of Grave Inscriptions for Ballymena has:
a 1918 stone in the Old Churchyard, Ahoghill - it was erected by Samuel Bamber of Galgorm Parks
and partly reads:
"...his father and mother Samuel Bamber who died.....1918 aged 73 years Margaret Bamber who died.......1886 aged 42 years........his brother John who died.......1896 aged 27 years And his sister who died.....1917 aged 44 years Also his sister Isabella Boyd Lennox who died.....1952 aged 68 years"
above found at and partly quoted from the Inscriptions found online at The Braid website.
Full details can be read by searching Bamber at:
http://www.thebraid.com/genealogy.aspx
which has the above and other Bamber entries.
Another thank you scotmum. The said headstone erected is that of my wifes gt/grandfather & mother and other family members and has been visited by my wife.
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Hi,
I may be a little confused, but your wife's memory of being born and raised on a farm near Ballymena ties in with the details of a Bamber couple raising a family in the 1870s in the Galgorm district of Ballymena. The same family were still there in the 1911 census. They are described as farmers. There is a head of family, Samuel, age 64 and a son, Samuel age 35 also a farmer, and a grandson, John. The younger Samuel is married but no wife is listed. The elder Samuel is a widow and three daughters are still living at home.
You are spot on kingskerswell, and the younger son is listed as a farmer. What a surprise to find he was a tailor and living in B'fast a few years prior.
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This is the first time I've used this site, so bear with me. Samuel Bamber,Sr. is my Great Grandfather. Samuel,Jr. had another sister, Agnes who is my Grandmother,came to the States and settled in Winnetka, Illinois. She died in 1940.
I'd be more than happy to pass on more information to anyone who is interested - - Steve.
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Its a small world on Rootschat.
I actually lived for about 10 years in Sans Souci Park as a child (number 28 for the record) All the houses had numbers then, and there was no "Lodge".
I would agree with earlier posters who said that the original house must have been pulled down to erect the present Sans Souci Park houses, thoiugh the odd thing is that you say the address included "Sans Souci Park" - a possible explanation is that the lode was in the parkland of Sans Souci House. Queens university have since pulled down a number of these houses, including our.
You want to try one of the "old map" services on the web to get the original plan of the area. I have no idea when our house was build, but they were all of a period, and the photo above. Perhaps they were built 1900 to 1925, but I am no expert.
Let me know if youu need any more on Sans Souci Park
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Thank you for your comments corisande.
Small world indeed.
In a previous post "your pete" noted he had a map which showed Sans Souci House and a gatehouse/lodge, 1851-1833. From 1883- 1820 the the gatehouse/lodge stood alone as S.S house was gone.
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Sorry, that should have been 1883-1920
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Hi stevesch,
My wife "Agnes" and I would be very happy have more information on your grandmother and her family.
Thanks
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Thanks for your inquiry. As I mentioned, Agnes was my Grandmother. Her parents were Samuel Bamber and Margaret (Boyd) Bamber. Their other children were Belle, John (AKA Jack), Margaret,Mary,Samuel Ned, Sarah. Agnes and Sarah came to the States, married and lived in the State of Illinois. My late Mother Helen, was one of five children of Agnes and George Deily.
I see you hail from Australia and if we are indeed related , you have a distant cousin in NSW. My cousin Pam ( Porter)Blackwell lives (or did at one time) in Mosman. Her father was William Porter, son of Bertha Deily Porter who was a daughter Arnes Bamber Deily. Small world!
As I mentioned earlier, I'm new to this site. I'd love to send you more information and if it's legal, could you send me your address. Thanks - - Steve.
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Thanks for the information. Being new to your site, I'm still learning the ins and outs.
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I've just come across this thread - it may interest you to know that my great-uncle was born in 'Sans Souci Nursing Home' in Belfast in 1927, according to the newspaper birth notice pasted in our family Bible. It may have been Sans Souci Lodge or just one of the big new houses built on the site of Sans Souci House.
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In fact I've just found this so it clearly wasn't actually where San Souci Park is now. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Belfast/issue/477/page/979/data.pdf
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Hi Clare
Thank you for your information
Regards
B
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You're welcome - the jigsaws take ages to piece together, don't they?
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Have been looking for a picture of Sans Souci Nursing Home, Wellington Road, Wellington Park, Belfast which is where my husband's maternal grandfather died in 1937. Both he and his wife died within a week of each other and one of his daughters (husband's mother) was about to get married so marriage was delayed for a while. I don't think his wife was in Sans Souci and she was not expected to die as far as I know.
Shame it has disappeared .............. Sue
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Not completely related, but there is Sans Souci in Ontario, on Georgian Bay. It's an island near Parry Sound. Wonder if it was named after area in Belfast!
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Hopefully the below information should resolve where Sans Souci Lodge and Sans Souci Nursing Home are located.
Recently online searchable street directories for 1901 + 1907-1908 - see below - show Sans Souci Lodge as fronting the Malone Road between both junctions with Sans Souci Park - the park is crescent shaped onto Malone Road. Further research from the 1901 Ireland census confirms small properties of 2 rooms at 27, 28 and 29 on the schedule of buildings. The other houses are 1st class and are recently build for the professional gentleman. The lodge is either 2nd or 3rd class - reaching the end of its life? Note John Stevenson in 1901 and he is listed as close to Sans Souci Lodge in the street directory extracts.
All this tends to confirm that Sans Souci Lodge was the former gate lodge to the grander house "Sans Souci"
Sans Souci Nursing Home
Again recent street directiries on line for 1932 show the home at 41 Malone Road Belfast. This is within 100 metres of Sans Souci Park. Google maps has street views as the property still stands.
Hopefully this has resolved previous problems. Thanks to http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/ for Street Directory copies plus PRONI for 1901 Malone Road extract.
Hope the attachments appear in the correct order. ???
Peter
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Thank you for your very informative and detailed information on Sans Souci Lodge
Regards
Brad