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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Berwickshire => Topic started by: Geordie daughter on Tuesday 28 July 09 17:11 BST (UK)
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I have just discovered that my mum's great-grandfather, John Service, was born in Coldstream, 1840, to parents Christopher Service and Christian Brown. The couple were married in Duns a year previously, however, and family rumour has it that the Service family were employed on the Duke of Roxburghe's estate at Duns for several generations. How true this is, I do not know, but I would love to find out more about the family and their supposed connection to the Duke. Can anybody help regarding record sources or avenues to follow?
Thanks.
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Hi,
This is all I could find, may be others will have more luck.
1851 Coldstream, Hatchednize.
Christopher Service H M 38 Farm Serv. England.
Christian W M 37 Wife of Farm Serv. Berwick,Ladykirk.
John S 10 at Home " Hutton.
George S 9 Scholar " Edrom.
James left blank 6 Scholar. " Edrom.
Thomas S 2 At Home " "
Hatchednize.
Isabella Foulton widow 77 Occupier of Farm 500 acres employing 9 men 8 women.
No sign of the family in 1861 at Coldstream or Duns.
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Oh Beckey, that's wonderful! Thank you for including Christopher's employer. I hadn't (stupid me!) thought of using the Scottish census to find the family, Scottish research being unfamiliar territory for me. Christopher's birthplace raises some doubt about the story that the Services were employed by the Duke of Roxburghe down the generations!!
However, it's lovely to finally discover John's siblings. I now know why John's only son was called George Christopher Service. While hunting for Services on Family Search yesterday, I jotted down the details of a Christian Brown, parents John and Janet, christened in Ladykirk, Berwick. There are two christening dates, one of 16 Jun 1811, and one of 25 May 1811 but I suspect the earlier one might actually be the birth date mistranscribed as a christening. 1811 isn't far off the date of 1814 calculated from the census, and the birthplaces tally so it looks like a match!
John married Janet Lothian in Duns in 1868, and their eldest daughter was born there early the following year, but it may well be his parents had gone elsewhere or died, possibly? By 1874, John had settled over the Border in Hebburn, where the couple's two younger children were born.
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Hi,
The only thing I found in Ladykirk 1841.
Horndean.
James Brown 56 Ag.Lab. Berwick.
Janet 59 " ".
Daniel 60 Merchant ".
There were several other Brown families, but that was the only one with a Janet that might fit.
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Hmm, that's interesting. Thanks for going to all this trouble, Beckey! I haven't had much joy with possible John Brown and Janet marriages either, apart from one in 1805 and one in 1808, both in Duns, or with Christopher's birth, although I could conjecture that George was the name of Christopher's father, if Christopher and Christian followed the Scots naming tradition.
Never mind, I'm amazed to have got this far...I've gone from knowing almost nothing about John's Scottish background except his year of birth and marriage details, to discovering his entire family, in three days ! ;D
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hi all :)
there is on scotlandspeople website -
christina service(other surname brown) death 1891 duns berwick born c1812
1881 24 north st. dunse berwick
christopher service 71 ag. lab. born england
christina service 70 b. ladykirk berwick
james service 31 son assistant forester b. edrom berwick
job middlemiss 21 visitor tailor b. coldstream berwick
SP also has christopher service death 1882 duns berwick born c1808
ev
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:-\
i wonder if it was actualy the hays family that the service family worked for -
http://www.dunscastle.co.uk/history.html
ev
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ev
Thank you so much for those death dates and the census details. As far as working for the Hays family goes: it's a strong possibility as I can't find any mention of the Duke of Roxburghe in connection with Duns, specifically. It would certainly make more sense, geographically. I was given a link for the Roxburghe estate website today, and have contacted them with my query, so will see what they say. The Duke of Roxburghe story came via my uncle, some years before he died, and I've no idea where he got that info from, which is why I thought it would be worth following up now. It's always tempting to claim connections with royalty and the peerage, but not much good if it can't be proven!
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Hi,
Per S.P.
1871 Clockmill,Dunse,
Christopher Service H M 61 Lab. Eng.
Christina W M 60 Ladykirk.
George S U 28 Ag.Lab. Edrom.
James S U 24 Lab. ".
Robert S U 18 Lab. Coldstream.
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Oh, well done Beckey, your persistence paid off! There's another brother to add to the tally, and there I was thinking John's family wasn't very prolific. I wonder if any of them married and/or came south of the border? Maybe my mum has Service cousins out there somewhere.... It seems really weird that my mum never heard anything much about her gran's side of the family.
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re connections with royalty
my father and father in law both worked for the Queen 8)
they were in the army and the navy ;D
ev
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Oooh, in that case I've got loads of rellies with 'royal' connections.... ;) ;D
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I've just found a marriage for a George Service and Margaret Lindsay, 3 Dec 1875, Duns, Berwick, but nothing for Robert, though he may simply have married after 1875, in which case it won't show. James appears to have remained a batchelor, judging by the 1881 census, unless he married very late, ditto Thomas.
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:-* Hello Geordie Daughter
Like you I am mewcomer here - Ladykirk Farm. You may be interested to know I have connections with Duns a the Hay family. My great great uncle Charles Clements was butler to Mr Hay after the !st World War. I believe he was his batman.
That is how a Hampshire man ended up in Duns.
Quite seperate family to the Scottish /Norham ones.
I wish you good luck in your search.
I started less than a week ago too, so not likely to offer any advice. like you I have had so much help here.
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Thanks for your message, Violetta. It's most appreciated! Your great great uncle must be a fascinating research subject...he must have led a really interesting life!
It will be interesting to see if my lot have connections to the Hays, like yours, rather than the Duke of Roxburghe, or if it's all smoke and mirrors. Although I'm a newcomer to this forum, I've been researching my family tree on and off for the last twenty years, but I still feel like an amateur! Forum members have helped me to solve so many knotty problems, and pointed me to the things I've stupidly overlooked, more times than I care to remember.
Good luck to you too!
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Terry
I went and sent your message back to you before I'd replied to it, nitwit that I am, and now I can't send my reply, as I keep getting an error message!! Could you PM me again so I can reply?
Thanks.
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There are sevaral areas of Berwickshire and Roxburghshire connected to the Earl of Roxburgh, as an example the Parish of Makerstoun (Roxburghshire) was around 12 miles square, most of the land occupied by the parish belonged to Sir Thomas and Lady Makdougal Brisbane, the remainder under the ownership of the Duke of Roxburghe.
Bowden Kirk (Roxburghshire) has a long history, founded in 1128 the church was at one point a virtual ruin. After the reformation the chancel was used as a burial area by the Roxburghe family.
In 1909 the Duke of Roxburgh paid for the renovation of the chancel and the 17th century Laird's Loft was relocated to the current position, the Laird (an elder of the Kirk) stil uses the Laird's Loft. The organ was installed in 1912.
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You sound like just the person I need, Glen, so I hope you don't mind if I pick your brains! Do you know whether the Duke of Roxburghe had land at or around Duns? I've so far been unable to establish any particular link with my Services and the Duke's estates. John's family appears to have lived in Duns, Coldstream, Hutton, Edrom and Clockmill at various stages of their lives, if that's any help, but I've no idea where his father lived prior to his marriage to Christian Brown. Also, do you know anything about bleaching fields or a bleaching mill in Clockmill, for example, who the landlord was? I'd be really grateful if you can provide any answers to these questions.
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I can't really help with any of the land ownership queries i'm afraid.
Clockmill and Duns Castle both sit on the same side of Duns, the edge of the Castle estate and Clockmill are separated by a short walk. I know there are some quite old houses within the castle estate grounds, presumably in use by workers on the estate at some point.
I don't know if the textile bleaching is an important link but all the sites you mention seem to have had some link to the industry or textiles in one way or another.
A useful site for all things historical relating to Scottish places can be found on the following link,
http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/scotgaz/gaztitle.html
The word search will bring up various results and the tabs on the right of the screen (once you get the hang of them) can lead to some really useful transcriptions and historic descriptions, many from the 1870-1890 period. Some places also have descriptions of listed buildings etc (Coldstream being one example).
Rumour has it that i descend from a disowned member of the Hay (Duns Castle) family, there are common names with that Hay family to mine but i have a long way to go before i can prove or disprove a link and probably a jump back at least three generations on my current findings.
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Just to add Hatchednize is a farm 2-3 miles west of Coldstream on the main Edinburgh road, quite a distinctive row of labourers cottages close to the farm too but quite probable that they are post 1851.
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Hi GD :)
Here's the photo I promised.
Robert W Service First Kelso Laddie 1937
Terry
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Hi Terry
Nice image, doubtless someone will ask what First Kelso Laddie means, and posted just as this years Streamer will be gearing up for his big week.
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Hi Glen,
Hope you get a good week weather wise. I well remember my first visit to Coldstream week. Went for a drink, Coldstreamer at the bar, 'here's the oslek lassies'....where ??? duh ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Have a good one
Terry
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;D ;D
I had to read that twice before the penny dropped :)
I doubt it can be any wetter than last year anyway, Flodden was a floodin'.
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According to my wife, "Kelso Laddie" was the same as all the Border Towns as "Riding of the Bounds" under different names, similar to the Salmon/Herring Queens Berwick/Eyemouth.
I can do the Hay family 1841-1861 if of any use to anyone.
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Thanks for the lovely pic, Terry. What a good looking young man! I have a pic of John looking very stern and patriarchal, but I'm not sure my technical skills are up to posting it.
Glen, thank you for all the info you've given me. I didn't know the places where my lot lived had links with the textile industry, or that Clockmill was so close to Duns Castle. I really envy you your local knowledge!! I managed to find out a bit more about Hatchednize Farm last night, and suspect I'll be spending a lot of time on that Scottish Gazette site today.
John Service must have done well for himself as a chemical works foreman, considering he was the son of an Ag. Lab. My mum tells me they were well off enough to afford a maid; her mum's sister Elvie was brought up by her grandparents (their mother was very ill after the birth of one of the younger children) and never had to lift a finger, apparently, so it was a great shock when she married and had children of her own.
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I'm guessing a bit at the textile links to be honest, the area has long links to wool and textiles even though nowadays it's hanging on by a thread really (pun intended). There are still several places with "mill" in the name around the area, most alongside some form of stream or flowing water but i would think a few where milling wheat. It's not something i have really looked at in detail.
Chirnside mill was really connected to paper, the old mill buildings still forming a large part of the site used by the current owners. The link below is to a photograph available under a creative commons licence and shows the old buildings within the modern complex.
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/122185
Berwick, or more accurately Spittal had a chemical works in the 1800's too, largely to supply the needs of the bleaching industry.
Sorry, it's all a bit vague and general but it sets the scene for the area for you.
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Every little helps, as they say...! Researching the background really helps to flesh out the lives of these people, and bring them alive again.
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If you visit the google map site and search "Duns Golf Club" then the satellite image will show two large light coloured fields just to the right of the golf club. The fields are the area known as Clockmill. Just above the fields you can see a large area of grass with trees dotted around the edges, that's Duns Castle estate.
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That's wonderful! Thank you, Glen!
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ev
I might have a breakthrough with regard to whom the Service family worked for! I have made contact with someone who is descended from John's brother, George. His youngest daughter Ellen married at Duns Castle in 1902, her occupation being given as 'Domestic Servant,' residing at Duns Castle, and George's occupation was given as 'Estate Carter'! (In 1881, George was an assistant forester, like James.) ;D
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:)
must be the Hay family then
ev
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ev
It does look like it, doesn't it? Your thinking was inspired, thank you! I'm still not sure how they could have muddled the two families, unless it just sounded posher saying you worked for the Duke. Either that, or the Services changed employers midstream!!
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like a lot of family stories the detail can get a bit mangled in the telling ,
in this case the Hay family might not have meant a lot outside of berwick but
the duke of roxburgh would have sounded better :-\
the 1841 census of berwick shows 25 people called Service but only 1 person
of that surname in roxburghshire
3 of the 25 on the 1841 were in duns and another 2 in coldstream
ev
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Well the Duke of Roxburghe is probably a more well known title than The Marquis of Tweedale/Marquess of Tweeddale. ;D
And it's probably fair to say the two prominent families probably crossed paths at some point or other.
Though going by what ev posted while i was typing this you might want to ignore the above ;D
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ev, those statistics do rather seem to back up the theory that the Services were in the employ of the Hays, though Glen did mention in an earlier post that the Duke held some land in Berwickshire...now, if we can figure out which parts, maybe both stories were true!!
...and as you and Glen both said, the Duke of Roxburghe does have a certain ring to it 8). Great for name-dropping!
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Well if i ever do link my Hay ancestors (starting right with my mother) to the Duns Castle family they also have a very distant link (by marriage if not by blood) to Nelson. I just thought i would drop that one in there very casually :)
On a slightly more serious note, the main difficulty you may face when trying to get back beyond 1855 is where the records will be held, although Berwick records office is in England they do hold quite a bit of information for Berwickshire, but you may find the records you are wanting are held at the archives at Hawick.
If i can help with photographs around Coldstream just let me know, although Duns and Ladykirk aren't that far away i don't tend to head to them unless i have a specific reason.
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John married Janet Lothian in Duns in 1868, and their eldest daughter was born there early the following year, but it may well be his parents had gone elsewhere or died, possibly? By 1874, John had settled over the Border in Hebburn, where the couple's two younger children were born.
GD
I know you are looking at the Services but were the parents of Janet Lothian..... Thomas Lothian and Helen Henderson by any chance. If they were you have a match with my OH
Terry
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Glen, access to records is always a big problem for me, as none of my ancestors have ever been natives of any of the counties I've lived in...very selfish of them!! It does limit my research rather, but it's amazing what you can unearth via the internet and email, with a little persistence and a lot of helpful people. Talking of which, thanks for your offer re photos, that's very kind of you.
I like the casual name-dropping ;D You could always write a book called 'The Ancestors I Might Have Had.' Actually, my Services are turning out to be one of my most interesting lines, as far as links with famous people go, even if it is only by association, and not blood! The name Service comes from the French words 'cerveise' meaning ale or beer, and 'servir', to serve, originally an occupational name given to a brewer or tavern keeper, I've discovered, so nothing to do with being 'in service.'
Oh, wow, Terry, yes! Those are indeed Janet's parents. I managed to find siblings Agnes, Mary, Margaret, and Elizabeth, but that's as far as I've got. Who is your OH descended from?
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Hi GD
My OH 3g grandparents were Thomas Lothian and Helen Henderson. He is descended from their son Adam, brother to your Janet.
I have quite a lot of info on the Lothians, here's Thomas and Helens Children
Agnes 21/12/1823 Dalkeith....Adam 30/11/1824 Dalkeith....William 03/12/1826 Westruther....Agnes 14/9/1828 Westruther....James 27/5/1830 m Helen Muir 20/03/1857 Earlston (and family)...Thomas 31/10/1832 w'ruther m Jane Tulloch....George 01/03/1835 w'ruther m Christina Bryden 4/6/1861 (and family)....Isabella 18/12/1836 m George Falconer (and family)GEORGE IS MY 1ST COUSIN 4 TIMES REMOVED)....Peter abt 1839 w'ruther....Helen abt 1840 W'ruther m James Tod (and family)....Walter Wood abt 1841 W'ruther m Isabella Stenhouse 9/6/1865 Smailholm (and family)....Mary 6/5/1843....Margaret 24/5/1845 W'ruther....Janet 24.3.1847 Westruther(yours) m John Service(I have 1 child, Ellen Henderson)...and finally Elizabeth 15/5/1849 w'ruther.
So 15 children in all that I found.
Father Thomas Lothian b 2/9/1802 d 8/8/1875 parents are Adam Lothian and Isabella Grieve, I have 6 children for them including Thomas.
Helen Hendersons b 25/5/1806 d 31/7/1881 parents were Adam Henderson b abt 1767 d 10/6/1841 and Agnes Dods b abt 1774 d 29/11/1853 , I have 9 children for them including Helen. I know where Adam and Agnes are buried I would be able to get a photo of the gravestone if it's in not too bad condition
I also know where Thomas and Helen Henderson are buried so would be able to get a photo of their grave.
I have info on quite a few of the siblings of all these families and further down the line also...been researching this one quite a while.
Hope you can follow the ramblings
Terry
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Terry, that's marvellous! The least I can do is give you John and Janet's children's details:
Ellen Henderson b 12/01/1869, Duns, Berwick
Christiana or Christina Brown (just discovered this one last week!) born and died Mar Q 1872, Hebburn, County Durham
George Christopher b Mar Q 1874, Hebburn, County Durham
Christina Brown b 12/07/1880, Hebburn, County Durham
Ellen married Thomas Briggs, Sep Q 1886, Hebburn. Thomas was born in Scotland but I've no idea where. They had a total of 11 children though I've only identified 10 so far. If you'd like their details I'll pass them on.)
George married Sarah Ann Bridges, Sep Q 1898, Hebburn and had one daughter, Sarah Jane, born Dec Q 1899. He then died in Mar Q 1901, and his widow remarried in Dec Q 1901, to a George Mossop, in Gateshead.
Christina married James Curry (b 14/11/1875, Newcastle) in Dec Q 1900.
They had Elvera Preston, b Mar Q 1902, Hebburn m Joseph Lydon
Roberta Jane Davison, b 17/01/1904, Hebburn m James William Swinhoe (my grandparents)
James b 18/9/1908 m Hilda Crosby. He died of TB contracted while serving on the convoy ships in the Merchant Navy, 10/11/1945.
Christine b 2/06/1910 m William Roy Atkinson
Ada b 9/11/1914 m George Clark Whipps
My mum tells me James and Christina had a posh wedding with open horse-drawn carriages and all the trimmings, apparently. Elvera was brought up by grandparents John and Janet, as Christina was very ill after the birth of one of the younger children, and was a secretary at A. Reyrolle and Company in Hebburn, before her marriage. I have yet to find where the name Elvera originated from!
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Hi GB
Thank you very much for the information, it will now go into my OH tree. :) :)
Funny how these things happen :D :D :D
Terry
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It's a pleasure! It's nice to be able to help you for a change :D
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Hello, I have been researching my surname , Lothian, for about nine years, Janet Service married to John Service was my G-G aunt, if you need any info I'll be glad to share it with you. My research starts in Westruther to present time Hebburn.
Walter Lothian
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Lovely to hear from you, Walter! Thank you very much for your kind offer. I'll pull out my notes on the Lothians as soon as I can get a minute and PM you, if that's O.K., as the Lothians are lumped in with the Services and Hendersons in my file. (We moved house in April, and I'm still not properly organised!!) ::)
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Hi Terry, my 4 x great grandparents were Thomas Lothian and Helen Henderson. I'm descended from Adam Lothian + Barbara Allan's son, George who emigrated to Australia with his wife Catherine Goodall and son, Adam Huntly Lothian. I visted Old Westruther church in 2005 to see Thomas + Helen/ Adam + Barbara's grave. Lauren
Hi GD
My OH 3g grandparents were Thomas Lothian and Helen Henderson. He is descended from their son Adam, brother to your Janet.
I have quite a lot of info on the Lothians, here's Thomas and Helens Children
Agnes 21/12/1823 Dalkeith....Adam 30/11/1824 Dalkeith....William 03/12/1826 Westruther....Agnes 14/9/1828 Westruther....James 27/5/1830 m Helen Muir 20/03/1857 Earlston (and family)...Thomas 31/10/1832 w'ruther m Jane Tulloch....George 01/03/1835 w'ruther m Christina Bryden 4/6/1861 (and family)....Isabella 18/12/1836 m George Falconer (and family)GEORGE IS MY 1ST COUSIN 4 TIMES REMOVED)....Peter abt 1839 w'ruther....Helen abt 1840 W'ruther m James Tod (and family)....Walter Wood abt 1841 W'ruther m Isabella Stenhouse 9/6/1865 Smailholm (and family)....Mary 6/5/1843....Margaret 24/5/1845 W'ruther....Janet 24.3.1847 Westruther(yours) m John Service(I have 1 child, Ellen Henderson)...and finally Elizabeth 15/5/1849 w'ruther.
So 15 children in all that I found.
Father Thomas Lothian b 2/9/1802 d 8/8/1875 parents are Adam Lothian and Isabella Grieve, I have 6 children for them including Thomas.
Helen Hendersons b 25/5/1806 d 31/7/1881 parents were Adam Henderson b abt 1767 d 10/6/1841 and Agnes Dods b abt 1774 d 29/11/1853 , I have 9 children for them including Helen. I know where Adam and Agnes are buried I would be able to get a photo of the gravestone if it's in not too bad condition
I also know where Thomas and Helen Henderson are buried so would be able to get a photo of their grave.
I have info on quite a few of the siblings of all these families and further down the line also...been researching this one quite a while.
Hope you can follow the ramblings
Terry
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Wow, Lauren, your Lothians have spread far and wide!
Out of all the children of Thomas and Helen that I have info on, "my" Janet seems to have been the least prolific, as she only produced four children.
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It's amazing how far a family can spread isn't it?! George and Catherine only had two sons!
I have some letters you might be interested in reading. They were from Adam + Barbara to their son George when he emigrated to Australia. Can I send private messages on here?
Wow, Lauren, your Lothians have spread far and wide!
Out of all the children of Thomas and Helen that I have info on, "my" Janet seems to have been the least prolific, as she only produced four children.
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Yes, you certainly can private message, Lauren. I see you're fairly new to this forum, so do you know how to do it?