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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: irene33 on Monday 27 July 09 20:44 BST (UK)
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I am new, I need help or direction of where I should search.
My Grandmother's father - John Edward Jones and according to census records he states he was born in Chirk, Denbigh Wales. It the 1911 census (he was living in Easington, Durham by then) he has stated Chirk Green, Denbigh, Wales. His father's name was also John.
I am having problems finding enough information to order a Birth record (Jones being such a common name)
I would appreciate some guidance. Thanks ??? ??? ???
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Hi irene33 & welcome to Rootschat.
Do you have your grandmother's birth certificate? That will give the mother and father's names. You can then look for the parents marriage, which will give their father's names and the place of your grandmother's birth. Where were they in 1911? Do you have her birthplace?
When was your grandmother born?
Do you know http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl which will enable you to search these.
Wrexham registration district covers Chirk.
You can order certificates online from http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
Wendy :)
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Hi Irene!
I've looked at the 1881 Census...could this be your family?
John JONES Head M Male 33 Ruabon, Denbigh, Wales Coal Miner
Martha JONES Wife M Female 32 Ruabon, Denbigh, Wales
John E. JONES Son U Male 10 Ruabon, Denbigh, Wales Scholar
John JONES Head M Male 49 Chirk, Denbigh, Wales Blacksmith
Mary JONES Wife M Female 39 Ruabon, Denbigh, Wales
(bit of an odd household??)
hope this helps ???
EDIT: they were living at 8 Russell Street, Ruabon, Denbigh
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:)
Nothing wrong with being born in Chirk Green ;D ;D ;D
I'll see if I can find something out about the family at the weekend when I'm back with my records, if you've not solved it by then
Chirk came under the Oswestry Registration district until 1935. as it was part of the Oswestry Poor Law Union from which the original Registration Districts were formed. I think they're on the North Wales BMD now so that would pinpoint his birth more accurately.
Gadget - born in CG 8)
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March q, 1873, Oswestry vol 6a page 756
The only John Edward Jones around then registered Oswestry.
Gadget
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There were two Chirk Greens in Chirk. One was a small row of cottages in the Rhosywaun area of Chirk but the most likely one was the community of 5 rows of miners terraced cottages built by the colliery owners between circa 1860 and 1890 to house their workers. This is the Chirk Green that those of us who come from the area regard as Chirk Green.
A bit about it on this thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,364967.0.html
Gadget :)
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Thank You all for your assistance.
My Grandmother (Barbara Jones) was born in Thornley, Durham (Easington District) 1896
Her father was born (sorry I don't an exact date) about 1871 or 1872. Her birth certificate shows her father is John Edward Jones.
I have a copy of the 1901 census and the 1911 census. In each one he (Barbara Jones's father) he states was born in Chirk, Denbigh, Wales.
Because of the amount of Jones names and to finding the correct district I was never sure of the right family.
There is another problem with the marriage of my grandmother's parents. Which is a whole new kettle of fish.
As I am unfamiliar with Wales the information you have all given helps a lot. PS I live in Canada
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Hi there,
Thanks for all the information on Chirk and the look-up you have searched for me. I know I put 1873 but I could be wrong. I will check when I get home. When I lookup IGI it gave Parish names and BMD is districts this is where I was having problems. So what Parish or District is Chirk?
Thank you all...I will be in touch again once I have reviewed what I have
thanks your all wonderful
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Hi Irene :)
If you are going to get a birth cert, I'd love to know the number of the house in Chirk Green and his mother's maiden name. There might possibly be some family connection.
Chirk is a parish in it's own right but the parishes were combined into registration districts in 1837 for statutory registration purposes. The registration district for Chirk was Oswestry from 1837 to 1935.
There were three John Edward Jones registered Oswestry in 1871. None in 1872. One in 1870 and the one in 1873.
Gadget
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Gadget, will all the wonderful pieces of information you have given me so far it would be a certifiable yes to that request. This is the furthest I have got for years.
My father told me that he (John Edward Jones) died somewhere around the Manchester area.
Well shall I wait until you check your records? And see what we come up with.
thanks
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Do you happen to know what religion they were. If they were Church of England, a baptism is the best way to go but non-conformist records are thin on the ground for Chirk at that time :-\
My coal mining ancestors from Chirk Green were a mixture ::)
Only one of them moved to Co. Durham*. Others moved to West Yorkshire and Lancashire but bobbed back and to!
Gadget
* see next posting - I've found some more!
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Out of interest, I've just been looking for an ancestor on the 1901 and I've found 25 people in Co. Durham who were born Chirk. They obviously moved for mining jobs.
I didn't find who I was looking for but I did find some probable cousins that I didn't know were there :o
Gadget
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Hi there,
My John Edward Jones was in district of Weston Rynn, Salop during the 1901 census with his wife and 3 children.
On the 1911 census he is living in Durham.
I was just going over the places his children were born most were born in Durham, however, one was born in Chirk Green also she was listed as age 9 in 1911 her name was Mary Kathleen. There was another child born in Pendlebury, Lancs (spelling may not be correct.
On the 1911 census he is 37 years of age his wife is 36 and they have been married 17 years.
So his birth year was probably 1873 or 74. His wife was born 1875.
My father seemed to think he (John Edward) had relatives in Lancs.
Will this bit of information get us closer?
::)
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Regarding the religion question. I am guessing it was Church of England, or something like that.
I suppose you have guessed by now he was a coal miner.
I think that is all I have so far... :D
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So his birth year was probably 1873 or 74. His wife was born 1875.
My father seemed to think he (John Edward) had relatives in Lancs.
Will this bit of information get us closer
I think I'd gamble £7 on that 1873, Oswestry birth cert :D
Gadget
PS - Weston Rhyn is in the neighbouring parish of St Martins.
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Hi again
I see on the 1901 he says that he was born 'Forge'. This is the area down by the River Ceiriog, about a mile or so to the east of Chirk Green. Some of my ancestors lived there.
Here's a photo that I took a few years back.
I'll focus on that area and Chirk Green.
Gadget
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Hi again
I've just spent a few hours on and off going through the census images for both the Forge/Pontyblew and Chirk Gren in the 1871 and 1881 in an attempt to identify a possible family. I can't find anything definite though. It could be that the family moved in and out between the censuses. However, UK searches don't reveal any really likely family.
These are the nearest that I can find in 1881 which should include John:
In St Martins, Shropshire - father is Edward
RG11/2660/22/2
In Chirk, Denbighshire - father is Joseph
RG11/2661/71/21
Although the father's name is wrong, it might be that he gave the wrong name on his marriage cert. It did happen.
I think a birth cert/baptism is the only way forward.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
Hi Gadget,
Thanks for your input and help. I am going to order the birth cert. today and see what comes from it. It seems like the only logical piece.
I do have one more question.
Is it possible for a marriage record on the index to have the wrong name for the wife? John E. Jones m. Elizabeth Maddison. 1893. The only problem is there is no record of it ONLY a John E. Jones marrying an Elizabeth Morrison. I know her name was Maddison because that is the name on her daughters b. cert.
I have never order the marriage cert. because of this just in case I guess I get a cert. with the Morrison or that they won't send it at all because of conflicting information. Maybe you haven't run across this before.
Irene33 ???
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Hi Irene
Did you find the marriage via the FreeBMD index or the full GRO listing?
It is possible for names to be wrongly transcribed. The national indexes (which give quarter, volume and page numbers) are copied from returns sent in by local registration offices which are in turn copied from the original registers. Errors can creep in at any of these stages.
If you give me the ref and where they married, I'll have a look as well.
Gadget
PS - how do you know that his father was John - is it from family info?
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Hi Gadget
I just wanted to let you know I have ordered John E. Jones b. certificate and I also order the marriage shown 1893. This is the one I think the wife's maiden name should be Maddison John Edward Jones, Dec qtr, 1893 volume 10a Page 610.
While researching the marriage I went to Durham Online to see what they had and this is what came from them
Marriages, Easington District
Record Number: 1541.1
Location: Wingate Grange
Church: Holy Trinity
Religion: Anglican
4 Dec 1893 John Edward Jones, age 20, son of John Jones married Elizabeth Morrison, age 19, daughter of Mark Morrison
I don't know how long they will take to arrive in Canada. I will let you know when I receive them. Thanks for your encouragement.
Irene
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Hi Irene
Does Elizabeth's age, location fit with the info that you have from the 1901 and 1911?
I look forward to hearing what the certificates contain.
I'm deep in Co.Durham now. Your request made me look at some Durham miners b. Chirk and I've now found so many relatives that I didn't know I'd got. It's one of my 2 xgreat grandmother's brothers and offsprings lines and I'd somehow not followed them up fully.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
Everything fits within a year, could be because the census was done in April and birthdays were later in the year.
Just to go back a little so within the Chirk area, there are 2 Chirk Greens.
I remember seeing the Forge now on the 1901 census. Are they villages or just rows of houses a colliery owner built?
As far as the birth and marriage certificates are concerned this is the closest I have ever come to thinking these could be the right ones.
Because he was only maybe 18 or 19 when he went to Easington, maybe he moved to Easington with some family. I also thought as 2 of his children were born outside County Durham they would have moved maybe because a family member of his told him of work. As far as I know all her family were from Easington area going back a few generations.
I guess I really won't know until the certificates get here. .....Irene
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Hi Irene
Chirk (Y Waun in Welsh) was a fairly large parish with it's main centre around the church. Shops,pubs and other services are concentrated on the main through road that was the old A5 coach road to Holyhead - called Church Street as it passes through the village. There are a number of settlements in addition to this area:
Black Park/Halton to the North East of the village - located close to the site of the previous Black Park Colliery
Rhosywaun to the North of the village - mainly a concentration of housing built in the ?1930s and further extended in the late 1940s-50s. The Wharf is adjacent to this settlement but was there earlier.
Chirk Green - primarily a community based on the old rows of miners cottage - now knocked down and redeveloped
Pentre - a settlement to the North of Black Park
The Forge/Pontyblew to the East - more an area of scattered houses close to the old forge than a settlement itself
Bronywaun/Church View -mainly a post WW2 housing development adjacent to the 'village' but extending for about a mile to the east.
Over the last 30 years more and more private housing (Maesywaun, Lodge Vale, etc.) has been built on the remaining land between these settlements so that only the outlying areas of Pentre, Black Park and the Forge/Pontyblew are distinct.
Other scattered housing and farms are located in the outlying areas.
There are two large 'family seats' - Chirk Castle, the home of the Myddleton family and Brynkinallt, the home of the Trevors.
Have a look at these two links:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Chirk/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirk
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
Thanks for the information and links about Chirk. That photo you sent of Forge earlier was great. That photograph finally seemed to bring the Jones side of the family "alive". This is the interesting part, finding where they lived, the type of work they did, the history and area they lived in. Just putting a family tree together is just the beginning.
Thanks again if you have any other handy links I am always interested. You are a mountain of information and it is all appreciated by me
Irene33
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If you like old photos, here's another site. I'm not sure how long it's been since it was updated but you might find it interesting:
http://www.chirk.org.uk/
Gadget
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Hi Irene & welcome :)
The index does show Elizabeth Morrison marrying Easington in Dec Q 1893 but I couldn’t find a Mark Morrison in Co. Durham in 1891 but found this family:
1891 ref RG12/4110/30/13
Water Street, Thornley, Durham
Mark Maddison, head, Mar, age 42, Fireman in Coal Mine, Durham Pittington
Mary Maddision, wife, Mar, age 35, Durham Pittington
Elizabeth Maddison, dau, age 16, Durham Thornley
Sarah Maddison, dau, age 14, Durham Thornley
Bartholomew Maddison, son, age 13, scholar, Durham Thornley
Thos Maddison, son age 12, scholar, Durham Thornley
Francis Ann, dau, age 2, Durham Thornley
Gowan R, son age 1, Durham Thornley
Free bmd has a marriage for a Mark Maddison with a Mary Burns on the same page
Dec Q 1872 Durham, GRO ref 10a/671
Hope this helps
Heather
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Hi Heather,
Thank you for looking. I did find the same/or similar information, that is why I think the Elizabeth Morrison is really Elizabeth Maddison and someone translated the name incorrectly. Especiallly when its a southerner listing to a Gordie accent.
I do know from family that my grandmother's mother was named Elizabeth and was born in Thornley.
I have ordered the marriage cert. So hopefully it will have the correct spelling. Having said all this it is great that you found supporting information encourages me to think I am on the right track.
thanks for the help....Irene33
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Hi Irene
I've just heard from Paul, our whiz at the records office. He's found this entry in the Chirk Parish records:
Chirk Baptisms. Page 162. No1289.
Born Jan 13. Baptised Jan 14 1873. John Edward s/o John & Catherine Jones. Pentre. Collier.
This entry would fit with the March q, 1873.. Oswestry RD registration :)
I've only just arrived back so will look at my other records in more detail tomorrow.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
I have been away over the weekend. So any research I have done is very quick.
I think with all the information we have on the table now, it will take a combination of receiving this birth record and marriage record to confirm if we have the right person. There are too many variables out there for me, that is probably because I am not familiar how the districts work.
I did try looking on the 1881 census for a John & Catherine Jones on the IGI. I mainly tried to match the parents and son. There was only one that the first names matched, however, it was a family living in country of Denbigh, and these people owned 28 acres. Somehow it didn't quite seem right.
I am still searching Oswestry District but as yet nothing, with a John & Catherine as parents.
The census reports tell me I have the right family its just their birth and marriage records that are hard to pin down.
Anyway I just wanted to touch base with you and let you know I am still searching
Irene33
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Hi Irene
The online IGI is no good for Chirk. The Family Hisory Centres do have the Bishops Transcripts but none of the parish records have been allowed to be filmed.
I mentioned Pentre earlier:
Pentre - a settlement to the North of Black Park
Paul couldn't find a marriage for the couple but it's on the boundary of two/three parishes - Rhosymedre, Llangollen and St Martins. he was going to check again.
I think it will be best to wait now until you get the birth cert.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
I agree, I will let you know as soon as I receive them.
Thanks
Irene33
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Hi Gadget,
I have just received the birth certficate, and marriage.
It does not show an address on the birth.... just states born in Pentre, Denbighshire. It does, however, give his mother's maiden name a Catherine Phillips, father as John Jones. Which is interesting because going back on some notes I made from a chat I had with my father, he mentioned that he heard her maiden name was Phillips. I had totally forgotten about it.
I have had a looked on Ancestry, for any census reports, because I was hoping to find siblings for John Edward. So far no luck but I am still searching. I would really appreciate it if you could guide me on where to look for more information about this family. To me it appears the way I have been searching has not turned up much yet. I just thank you for your information otherwise he would have remained lost.
The wedding certificate is another story. It is the wrong wife's name. I can't find the marriage between John Edward and Elizabeth Maddison. Yet my grandmother's birth cert. states Elizabeth Maddison as the mother and my grandmother was her first child. Census reports indicate it is her all the way up to 1911. According to the marriage cert. her name is Elizabeth Morrison. This is so weird.
All the best...Irene33
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Hi Irene :)
I'm glad that the birth cert seems to tally with what Paul found in the baptism records. I'll have a mosey around to see if I can find a suitable marriage for John Jones and Catherine Phil(l)ips and get back to you.
Sorry about the marriage cert - are you sure that it's wrong. It could be an error from the original entry that's been carried forward. Does it give John's age, occupation and father's details correctly?
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
Regarding the birth. cert was it normal to not put an address for the parents or where the birth occurred? So do you think these might be part of you ancestors?
About the marriage cert. for John Edward and Elizabeth Maddison. Your right I can only think that an error occurred on the original entry and it has been carried forward. The age of both and names of parents (in Elizabeth's case her father's his first name (Mark). John's father's name is correct and his age. The only thing different is the last name.
I am guessing there would be nothing that I can do about that "if" the original entry was done in error.
Thanks again for looking for the marriage of John & Catherine.
Irene33