RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: Bejantine on Sunday 26 July 09 00:00 BST (UK)
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Does anyone have any knowledge of the whereabouts of records about the members of the above fencible regiment 1793-1799?
Has a history of the regiment ever been written?
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There is a notice in the Caledonian Mercury December 1806 offering a reward of 500 guineas for the capture of Robert Johnson formerly a sergeant in the Hopetoun Fencibles. Wanted in connection of the robbery and murder of William Begbie
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There are a few references to the Hopetoun Fencibles in various books, which give clues as to where they were during that period. It would appear that they never left these shores to fight the French.
After being raised in 1793 they were apparently stationed at Banff.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07c8/
The Paymaster of the Fencibles was named MacDougal
http://www.edinburghbookshelf.org.uk/volume8/page597/single
1794 Stationed at Dalkeith
http://www.edinburghbookshelf.org.uk/volume8/page500.html
1794 Stationed in Dumfries - Where one of them was found to be a WOMAN :o
http://www.edinburghbookshelf.org.uk/volume8/page286.html
1795 Quartered in Edinburgh Castle
http://www.edinburghbookshelf.org.uk/volume9/page308.html
In June 1796 they were at the Palace of Holyrood House, Edinburgh
http://www.oldandnewedinburgh.co.uk/volume3/page88.html
3 Officers of the Hopetoun Fencibles
http://www.edinburghbookshelf.org.uk/volume8/page571.html
pg 372 there is a reference to their disbanding in 1799.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07c9/
There are a few mentions of specific people of note (Doctors/MPs and the gentry) who enlisted in the Hopetoun Fencibles and their doings. Were you looking for anyone in particular?
Kirsty
edit: It would appear that they were ordered to England in 1794, but not wishing to be drafted against their will into regiments heading abroad they mutinied and declined. This would explain the slightly confllicting accounts I found which stated that they never left Scotland, while others said they had orders to leave for England - when Watt and his conspirators were distributing pamphlets.
http://www.archive.org/stream/territorialsoldi00bullrich/territorialsoldi00bullrich_djvu.txt
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Many thanks to Sancti and especially Kirsty for all the information
I have also emailed Hopetoun House and they are going to let me know what they have - so it may be Scotland here I come!
Many thanks
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I've just stumbled across this correspondence by accident, while browsing. I usually only look at the Fife and Roxburghshire forums.
My 3 x great-grandfather Thomas Welsh was a soldier in the Hopetoun Fencibles, and I discovered this fact back in the 1980s when I started doing my family-history and I found a WANTED notice about Thomas in the Kelso Mail and Edinburgh Evening Courant for July 1808, giving lots of personal information about him. The procurator-fiscal's office in Hawick were very keen to know his current whereabouts! It's useful having a naughty ancestor, as they at least leave a trace in the records.
I then did some research on that regiment, e.g. I sat in the Scottish Room of the Central Library in Edinburgh for days on end and copied out every reference to that regiment that I could find in the pages of the Edinburgh Evening Courant from 1795 to 1799, when the regiment was disbanded at Hopetoun House, Linlithgow. By coincidence, I was then living in Linlithgow. My notes run to five pages of A4. I'll be glad to share them with anyone who is interested, but I will need your email or snail-mail addresses to send them to, as there's too much to summarise. I also have a photocopy of the picture of the 3rd Earl of Hopetoun in Kay's Edinburgh Portraits, in the uniform of the regiment.
My Thomas Welsh got married in Glasgow in January 1795 and the marriage-entry says he was a soldier in the 7th Regiment of Fencibles or Hopetoun Fencibles, so he was obviously billeted in Glasgow at that time. Maybe his wife Jean Ballantyne was his landlord's daughter?
Harry
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Hello Harry,
I read with interest your comment about info on Hopetoun Fencibles in Edinburgh Courant at NLS .
I gave up hope a few years ago about finding any more information about the HF but this is one lead of which I was unaware. Are there any names included in your findings or details of recruitment? MyGGG Grandfather went from HF when disbanded to become a Sergeant in Ross Militia and Sergeant Major in Tain Volunteers after his experience with the Fencibles. And was probably recruited to those northerly regiments during HF postings at Fort George.
Is it worthwhile visiting NLS to browse the Courants?
12885m
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Hello. It was in the Central Public Library at George IV Bridge that I read the old Courants, but they also have old newspapers in the NLS across the road. When I was spending a lot of time reading old newspapers in the 80s, you got the actual bound volumes of the papers themselves to look at, but nowadays it tends to be microfilms, which I personally find a hassle to wind on and a problem to read, at least round the edges.
Individual members of the regiment only tend to be mentioned for negative reasons, like desertion or criminal acts, e.g. [William Davidson of the Hopetoun Fencibles, quartered at Glasgow, to receive 150 lashes] "for having forged billets on a number of the inhabitants of Glasgow".
I'm looking at my old notebook, and I see I have notes about them arriving in Edinburgh in 1795 to take over from the Scots Brigade at the Castle, then a detachment of the regiment is detailed to Gullane Links to be present at a military execution. While in Edinburgh they used to exercise at Bruntsfield Links. On one occasion they were reviewed there by the Commander-in-Chief, and "They went through the various manoeuvres with much dexterity and exactness, and greatly to the satisfaction of all present".
A little later, "a party of the Hopetoun Fencibles" was sent on board the Defiance of 74 guns, lying in Leith Roads to arrest a bunch of mutineers.
A member of the regiment called Stewart Lewis, from Annan, wrote a long and sentimental poem about how wonderful Edinburgh was, which the newspaper promptly published. The Edinburgh papers are still suckers for that kind of thing!
On March 31st., "This forenoon the DUC D'ANGOULESME and his suite visited the Castle. They were received by the Hopetoun fencibles under arms, and saluted with a discharge of the great guns, &c."
But on May 19th.,
"On Monday, the first division of the Argyleshire fencibles, quartered at Aberdeen during last winter, marched for Fort George. We hear they are to be replaced in the barracks there by the Hopetoun fencibles."
They marched out of Edinburgh on July 4th. on their way to Aberdeen, and were replaced by the Sutherland Fencibles. The Courant commented on the Hopetoun Fencibles that -
"Their exemplary, steady and good behaviour, during the twelve months they have been stationed here, makes their departure regretted."
I have plenty more material like this that I can quote if you're interested!
Harry
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Hello Harry,
thanks for the prompt reply. I lived in Sussex for 41 years until 7 years ago and was able to visit Kew where I found on a Ross Militia Muster Roll that my GGG Grandfather Alexander Buchanan was 'late of the Hopetoun Fencibles' moving to Tain in 1799 after the demobilisation of the Fencibles. I read in the Hopetoun Papers at the Archives in Edinburgh a letter from the Home Secretary stating that 'the best of the young men would make the non-commissioned officers of the new Militia.'
Where and when Alexander was recruited to the HF is a mystery. I believe his family moved from their Kilmahog home to Edinburgh and that he was a weaver, a trade that suffered greatly in the 1790's which might have led him to follow a military career but as you state, the HF were also based at Aberdeen for some time as stated in the 'Stations of the Hopetoun Fencibles' and in the poem/song "The Hopetoun Fencible Farewell to the Camp at Don Links"
Alexander moved from Sergeant with the Militia to Sgt Major with the Tain Volunteers until 1811 when he and his family were transported to Woolwich as a Gunner(!) in the Royal Artillery where his wife gave birth to his 4th daughter, then back to settle in Aberdeen and return to Weaving and where his wife had their 2nd son. The Aberdeen connection again although the fact that his wife was born in that county is the probable explanation.
Any other anecdotes from the Courant would be helpful as it gives me good background.
best wishes
Alan (12885m)
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OK, here are some more bits and pieces.
A report in the paper on June 8th 1797 states that the Argyleshire and Hopetoun Fencibles and the Rutlandshire light dragoons were all now at the camp by Bridge of Don, but it sounds as if the Devil was making work for idle hands -
"On Friday evening an unfortunate Scuffle happened between two of the Hopetoun fencibles, in which Duncan McIntire was wounded in the head with a bayonet in so severe a manner that he died in a few hours - James Stirling, accused of the murder, has been committed to prison."
On October 5th they marched for Fort George.
I've nothing much in my notes then till the following May 17th (1798) -
DESERTED
On the 12th May 1798, from 7th, or Southern Regiment of Fencibles, lying at Fort George
ALEX. GILLESPIE (St. Vigeans)
JAMES CAMPBELL (Glasgow).
By October 13th they were in Aberdeen, and were reviewed on the links by Major-General Hay.
Then this from March 23rd., 1799 -
"We understand that all the established regiments of fencible infantry in North Britain are to be called upon to extend their services to Ireland or Europe, without any additional bounty to the men; and, if they decline to do so, are to be disbanded by the 24th of next month; in which case, the regiments of the line are to offer the full bounty to the men, and inlist as many of them as they can; and that the Angus, Rossshire and Shetland corps, are not allowed the alternative of extending their services, and will of course be disbanded. The following is a list of the head-quarters of these regiments and corps:
1st Fencible Infantry (Strathspey or Grants), Irvine.
2nd do. (Sutherland), Ayr.
3rd do. (West Lowland), Musselburgh.
4th do. 1st bat. (Breadalbane), Fort George.
- do. 2nd bat. (Breadalbane), From Ireland.
5th do. 1st bat. (Argyllshire), Dundee.
6th do. (Gordon's), Dunfermline.
7th do. (Hopetoun's) Aberdeen.
Angus Corps, Peterhead.
Rossshire Corps, Alloa.
Orkney & Shetland Corps, Lerwick.
The three latter corps, which are positively to be disbanded, are commanded only by two Majors and a Captain."
On April 4th we are told that the Hopetoun Fencibles have marched from Aberdeen to Linlithgow, where they are to be disbanded, but
"Such of the men as had engaged with other corps were allowed to remain at Aberdeen."
On April 20th the newspaper printed in full the Earl of Hopetoun's address to the men just before they were demobbed, but I'm afraid it's too long to quote here!
On May 4th., says the paper -
"The non-commissioned officers and privates of Lord HOPETOUN's late fencible regiment, now residing in Edinburgh, have returned an answer to his Lordship's late address to them. It echoes back every sentiment of respect and attachment which the address contained and particularly notices his Lordship's attention in providing spiritual instructors for the men under his charge, and a schoolmaster for the education of their children. It expresses in very strong language their firm attachment to his Majesty and our happy constitution, and their readiness again to assemble round his Lordship's standard, should a foreign enemy dare to disturb their native land."
Shades of Rabbie Burns's Does haughty Gaul invasion threat? Obviously our ancestors had "done good" as amateur soldiers.
I once had the records of the regiment checked and was told that my Thomas Welsh's name first appears on the muster roll in Banff, but there is overwhelming evidence that he was a native of Roxburghshire.
You mention living in Sussex. My wife and I first met in an English-language school in Hove where we both landed up in June 1972 after a two-year teaching contract in Sweden (where our paths never crossed!).
My wife is from Peterborough, but had an ancestor called Alexander Rollo from Rathen in Aberdeenshire who served in the Royal Artillery in the Peninsular Wars and held the lantern at the midnight burial of Sir John Moore at Corunna ("Not a sound was heard, not a funeral note, As his corse to the rampart they carried ...").
Harry
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Hello Harry,
you say you had the records of the regiment checked and found your ancestor. Where did you find the records?
I remember Language schools on Wilbury Road, Church Road and Old Shoreham Road. A friend of mine had one in Brighton which he opened in the 80's or 90's and sold a few years ago.
Alan
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Hello Harry,
you say you had the records of the regiment checked and found your ancestor. Where did you find the records?
I remember Language schools on Wilbury Road, Church Road and Old Shoreham Road. A friend of mine had one in Brighton which he opened in the 80's or 90's and sold a few years ago.
Alan
I wrote to the Public Record Office, Kew, in 1987. In their reply they say "The Public Record Office holds the muster rolls of the Southern or 7th Fencibles for the period March 1793 - April 1799 under the reference WO 13/3942 and 3943. ... The first muster roll, which covers the period from 1 March - 23 June 1793, lists Thomas Welsh as attesting on 16 May 1793, but does not state where this oath was taken. The muster roll was counter-signed by the Justice of the Peace for Banff on 18 November 1793 ..."
My wife and I taught in the English Language Centre, 33 Palmeira Mansions, Hove.
Harry
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The Stations of the Hopetoun Fencibles lists them being at Banff from October 1793 until June 1794 when they moved to Dumfries after being set up in Linlithgow. When I visited Kew, there were no records available but it might be because they are listed as 'Southern or 7th Fencibles'. Is there much detail and is it possible I might find my ancestor on the lists?
Our first flat in 1962 was in Landsdowne Place. Steve Ovett, who was a Brighton Athletic club mate of mine had his first flat in Palmeira Square, when he married.
Another coincidence, our youngest son, the reason we returned to Scotland, has a TEFL degree and teaches in Edinburgh having spent his early teaching days in Brazil and Chile where he met his wife.
Alan
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I've scanned the letter I got from Kew and attached it to this post.
When my wife and I were teaching in Hove, in 1972-3, we lived in Over Street in the Kemptown area of Brighton. In '73 we moved to Bournemouth, where we got married, and immediately after that we moved to Glasgow to new jobs. Stuck it there for 4 years, then 2 years teaching in Germany, then from 1979 until early retirement at 55 in 2001, I had a job at Edinburgh University. We live in Barnton, in the west of Edinburgh.
Harry
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Thanks for all your help. I am getting a researcher to look up details at Kew as I now live in the Borders and it is too far. It was 10 years ago that I drew a blank on the Hopetoun Fencibles at Kew. It is a pity there was nobody there with sufficient knowledge to advise me.
Alan
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Yes, it helps to know that their official title was the 7th or Southern Regiment of Fencibles.
Harry
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I believe they were in Glasgow in 1795 then removed to McDuff in Aberbeenshire between 1797-1799 when they were disbanded. They were guarding the northern coast from the French!
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A rather belated update to our correspondence. I checked the Muster Rolls and found that my GGG Grandfather, Alexander Buchanan, was listed as a Private at Fort George in 1797 leaving as a Sergeant, to join the Ross Militia in 1799. The final entry states he was "from Genaders", which I take as a miss spelling of Grenadiers and that he was formerly with the Breadalbane Fencibles who had a Grenadiers Company and were based at Fort George until 1797 when the were replaced by Hopetoun's Fencibles. This also fits in with Alexander being born at Kilmahog in the Trossachs, on the fringes of the Breadalbane recruiting area.
Alan Buchanan
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I then did some research on that regiment, e.g. I sat in the Scottish Room of the Central Library in Edinburgh for days on end and copied out every reference to that regiment that I could find in the pages of the Edinburgh Evening Courant from 1795 to 1799, when the regiment was disbanded at Hopetoun House, Linlithgow. By coincidence, I was then living in Linlithgow. My notes run to five pages of A4. I'll be glad to share them with anyone who is interested, but I will need your email or snail-mail addresses to send them to, as there's too much to summarise. I also have a photocopy of the picture of the 3rd Earl of Hopetoun in Kay's Edinburgh Portraits, in the uniform of the regiment.
Hi Harry
I've just been reading this thread with enormous interest and am wondering if I could ask for your help. I'm trying to establish whether a chap called Samuel Player ever served in the Hopetoun Fencibles at the same time as one of the Hopetoun Captains, one Thomas Durham. Samuel Player joined the Fifeshire Fencibles when it was first raised by James Durham (I believe this was Thomas's brother) in 1795, and I think Thomas went to the Fifeshires too at that time, becoming a Lt Col under his brother, the Colonel.
The Hopetoun period I'm interested in, therefore is from its inception in March 1793 to the middle of 1795 when James Durham (I think) took his brother Thomas with him to his own new regiment, and possibly a private called Samuel Player too.
I will go to Kew armed with the reference they gave you in the letter you kindly shared with this forum regarding their Muster Book holdings for the Hopetouns in WO 13 to look for Samuel's name, but you have done such an admirable amount of work on all this already, I was just wondering if by any chance Captain Thomas Durham, or even Private Samuel Player, had in any way impinged upon your consciousness already?
I'd be so grateful for any thoughts you may have.
Many thanks
Claire
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Sorry, no, but I do know that the Durham family were associated with Largo in Fife.
Harry
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Hi, no worries; thanks so much for getting back to me so quickly anyway
Best wishes
Claire
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I then did some research on that regiment, e.g. I sat in the Scottish Room of the Central Library in Edinburgh for days on end and copied out every reference to that regiment that I could find in the pages of the Edinburgh Evening Courant from 1795 to 1799, when the regiment was disbanded at Hopetoun House, Linlithgow. By coincidence, I was then living in Linlithgow. My notes run to five pages of A4. I'll be glad to share them with anyone who is interested, but I will need your email or snail-mail addresses to send them to, as there's too much to summarise. I also have a photocopy of the picture of the 3rd Earl of Hopetoun in Kay's Edinburgh Portraits, in the uniform of the regiment.
Hi Harry,
Would it be possible to get a copy of your notes for the 7th Fencibles, I am researching a Thomas Donaldson who was with them at least 1793-1797.
Thanks
Barry
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I've just checked and I don't seem to have those notes on the computer. I'm in the rather peculiar position that I had a bad fall earlier this year which put me in hospital for three months with broken bones in my back and since getting home I've been confined to the ground floor of my house getting round with a zimmer. Of course, all my genealogical files and notes are upstairs in my study! I don't make New Year resolutions as such but I am determined to get up those stairs this year and access my notes again, and if I do I will remember your request.
Harry
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I've just checked and I don't seem to have those notes on the computer. I'm in the rather peculiar position that I had a bad fall earlier this year which put me in hospital for three months with broken bones in my back and since getting home I've been confined to the ground floor of my house getting round with a zimmer. Of course, all my genealogical files and notes are upstairs in my study! I don't make New Year resolutions as such but I am determined to get up those stairs this year and access my notes again, and if I do I will remember your request.
Harry
Harry, Thanks for replying. Sorry to hear of your accident. I hope 2025 is a better year for you and wish you a successful recovery.