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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Lady Di on Friday 24 July 09 23:18 BST (UK)
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How important was the Rector/Vicar of a local church in the 1600's?
Would his children have married into the gentry of the area? Would the vicar have been well off/well paid?
Could he have come from a "well established" family?
I'm trying to make sense of my Turner family and it appears that one guy has "connections" to some of the VIP's both in the local area and the city but I'm not sure I have the right family.
Anyone know anything about Ministers of this era?
Thanks
Di
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Could he have come from a "well established" family?
As far as I understand, yes!
I can't remember where/when I came across the statement that the eldest son being the heir would be busy with the family estates, the second son would go into the army, and the third would enter the church.
I have quite a few clergymen in my family lines, going back a couple of centuries, and they did tend to marry well. I believe that many (most?) of the early CofE clergymen would cultivate a patron who then placed them in a parish which would be 'worth' so much, paid for by a benefice from the patron and tithes from the parishoners - well, something like that.
In more recent times my family clergymen were generally poor!
:)
Koromo
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I can't remember where/when I came across the statement that the eldest son being the heir would be busy with the family estates, the second son would go into the army, and the third would enter the church.
Thanks Koromo - I have also heard/read this comment before as well. Unfortunately I can't work out who my Rev Turner's father was to see if he was the third son. ::)
I've found a few other Turner family members in the area and a few websites/google books infer that they are connected but I can't work out what the connection is - unless I go back another generation and the 1500's aren't easy to research.
Thanks for your input
Di
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In those days clergy were almost certainly graduates of Oxford or Cambridge. A Record Office or large library should have volumes recording their names and other data - Foster's Alumni being one of them, Venn's the other. Also try the Clergy Database online, which is not complete, but may help.
A
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I think Koromo is right with that statement.
I have a fairly aristocratic Anglo-Irish family. Apart from having landed estates, some of them were in Parliament, some Major-Generals (and in these two categories, often knighted) and some were clergy. The clergy did seem to marry quite well!
MarieC
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I can't remember where/when I came across the statement that the eldest son being the heir would be busy with the family estates, the second son would go into the army, and the third would enter the church.
IKoromo
I might be wrong, but I thought this applied to Irish Catholics. ;D
Have you seen this Di?:
http://eagle.cch.kcl.ac.uk:8080/cce/
This is a lot later, but it was the first thing that came to mind when I read your question. It supports what Koromo says about patronage:
http://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/ppv1n13.html#mrcoll1
(go to the letter written by Mr Collins about 1/2 way down the page) (great BBC TV series by the way ;))
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Thanks everyone for your input and info
The reason for my question was that the patronage and advowson of the Layston church in Herts was held by the Crouch/Crowch family for generations (They're also my ancestors). When the Crouch's married they seemed to only marry into about half a dozen different families. These families intermarried over and over again.
Then I have my John Turner (B: 1603, educated at Cambs Uni) as the Vicar of Layston from 1650 'til his death in 1663 (I have the PR's with his signature on each page and his death notice as Vicar)
John's grand daughter married Thomas Crouch c. 1690.
There are two marriages that may be part of my lot but I'm wondering if I clutching at straws here ::)
John Turner married Mary Crowch in 1600 at Layston
Margaret Turner married Richard Crouch 1604 Layston
Because the Crouch/Crowch family were one of the VIP families of the area, I was trying to work out if a normal everyday Vicar could be related as I can't prove any connection - except circumstantial at this stage.
The only other "thing" that I had was that, over the years, some of the other clergy at Layston were connected to the few families that the Crouch family had married into.
Sorry - that wasn't meant to be so long-winded and garbled.
I'm really trying to work it all out in my own mind - and failing at the moment ::) and I just hate it when I can't totally PROVE a connection.
Di
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Many rectors who came from wealthy families would have a number of parishes. They would put curates in charge of the individual parishes and only rarely visit them when an event of social importance took place.
If you can find the original parish registers an examination of who carried out the births burials and marriages will give some indication. You will need the registers because this information is rarely transcribed.
David
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Hi David,
I've checked the CCeD listing and unfortunately John only appears once, and that's for the Layston Church. I even wrote to the cced people who unfortunately don't have any further information other than John Turner was at Layston 1650-1663.
There are a few by the same name on cced but can't see if they could be the same guy at another Parish, even as a Curate, in the early days.
I have the Layston PR's (on film) so I know the Layston part is OK (with his signature) but that's all I have so far.
Thanks
Di
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Probably no help at all, but just to back up what has been said ...
I've researched a local vicar here who in 1686 left money to establish a school in the village ... although this is Monmouthshire, he came from 'gentry' in Leicestershire; had attended Oxford; and was a rich vicar here by the age of 22 !! So yes, gentry, and money !!
I'm a trustee of the trust which has been handed down since then, but now, with no actual school any more, it provides money for needy children or university students from the village ...
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Patrons of a parish would usually give the living either to a family member or someone they knew well or someone who would pay them a sum of money to secure the living. I'd think John Turner would have been related, but then again it's not an uncommon name.
I expect you'll have checked PCC wills - I could see a Bernard Turner of Layston 1696, but my Hertfordshire geography isn't good enough for me to know where it is/what is near it.
Carole
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I'm a trustee of the trust which has been handed down since then, but now, with no actual school any more, it provides money for needy children or university students from the village ...
Thanks Lydart,
I often wondered what happened to the trusts set up in the 1600's where a small amount (by todays standards) was left to the needy of the village. I'm surprised to hear that these trusts are still in existence today.
I expect you'll have checked PCC wills - I could see a Bernard Turner of Layston 1696,
Well spotted Carole - Bernard Turner was John Turner's son. I do have his will but it doesn't say anything helpful about the earlier generations unfortunately.
Thanks everyone. It's good to know that maybe the Vicar Turner was related to the church patron. It would certainly make my research easier - all I have to do now is prove it ::)
Di
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Just a thought - vicars/ministers are often mentioned in books relating to the history of the county. These can usually be found in the county records office and/or libraries.
If he is connected to the 'local gentry' then I expect he'll get a bigger mention than most :)
Christine
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A search of A2A for Turner Layston shows that HALS holds the following item which may be of interest:
Lease for a year DE/Wy/39772 16 July 1669
Contents:
By John Taylor of Shinglehall, Sawbridgewenth, gentleman, and Sir Edward Atkins, knight, one of the Barons of the Exchequer, to Bernard Turner, citizen and goldsmith of London, of the manor of Affledwick otherwise Beauchamps etc and land in Layston, Anstey, Great Hormead and Wyddial. Signatures, Seals missing
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Christine that is an excellent suggestion for anyone researching the earlier years.
I have a copy of "Historical Antiquities of Hertfordshire" where many of the Clergy are mentioned in context. This book has been a fantastic bonus. Although you can't expect it to be 100% accurate without checking everything, it does provide a good basis.
These books certainly help anyone researching a specific county but unfortunately my John Turner took over from a Minister who had been at the church for almost 50 years so he had lots written about him and no one else was mentioned ::)
I do know that my guy was born 1603, died 1663, went to Cambs Uni, had at least two sons, Bernard and William but that's my limit!
Why couldn't I pick an easy one to research? :-\
(It's the fun of the chase - isn't it!! ;D )
A search of A2A for Turner Layston shows that HALS holds the following item which may be of interest:
Lease for a year DE/Wy/39772 16 July 1669
Contents:
By John Taylor of Shinglehall, Sawbridgewenth, gentleman, and Sir Edward Atkins, knight, one of the Barons of the Exchequer, to Bernard Turner, citizen and goldsmith of London, of the manor of Affledwick otherwise Beauchamps etc and land in Layston, Anstey, Great Hormead and Wyddial. Signatures, Seals missing
Thanks David - yes, that's the right family. Bernard gave "Affledwick otherwise Beauchamps" to his daughter Ann when she married in 1690.
Bernard wasn't short of a £ or two but he appears to have made it all as a Goldsmith/Banker and not as an inheritance. Which brings me back to his father, John Turner, who unfortunately doesn't appear to have left a will - or any money - or if he had any family connection to the locals.
Thanks
Di
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I found the ordination papers of one of mine -Rev George Boyce - had a written copy of his baptism
The ordination papers were at Swindon archives, George was in Winkfield Berks, - at that time in Salsbury Diocese.
So you need to work out the Diocese at the time, then fin out which archive their papers may be in
Bob
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Layston along with most of a strip of east Hertfordshire was in the Archdeaconry of Middlesex in the Diocese of London. Most of Hertfordshire was in the Diocese of London. While the parish registers are at HALS I am not sure what this means about other diocese documentation which may be somewhere like the LMA. This of course may also apply to any will made by John Turner.
Have you looked for a will beyond the PCC?
David
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My apologies for not replying sooner - I've been away for a couple of weeks.
I found the ordination papers of one of mine -Rev George Boyce - had a written copy of his baptism
The ordination papers were at Swindon archives, George was in Winkfield Berks, - at that time in Salsbury Diocese.
So you need to work out the Diocese at the time, then fin out which archive their papers may be in
Bob
That sounds like a fantastic bonus Bob. I wouldn't have expected to find a baptism record in with his ordination papers.
That's certainly a line worth following up.
Thanks
Layston along with most of a strip of east Hertfordshire was in the Archdeaconry of Middlesex in the Diocese of London. Most of Hertfordshire was in the Diocese of London. While the parish registers are at HALS I am not sure what this means about other diocese documentation which may be somewhere like the LMA. This of course may also apply to any will made by John Turner.
Have you looked for a will beyond the PCC?
David
I have checked Origins as well as PCC for a will David but haven't located one so far. :(
I do have a copy of the LDS PR's for Layston but unfortunately they're not particularly helpful finding John's birth and with such a common name I'm rather clutching at straws with this guy.
I'll follow up on "other diocese documentation" and also see if LMA has any applicable records.
Thanks for your help and suggestions
Di
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A few thoughts from your previous replies.
Bernard was a goldsmith and banker. He was probably a banker and a member of the Goldsmiths Guild in London. Even in the 17th century the guilds were becoming businessmen's clubs as well as trade guilds. Goldsmiths was the top guild to which everyone aspired. Any relevant records will be at Goldsmiths Hall as only a few later ones are in Guildhall Library. The point is that he may not have served an apprenticeship, probably never worked as a goldsmith and obtained his membership of the guild through family connections. Even apprentices of the goldsmiths needed a family connection. Thus those records are worth tracing.
Returning to wills. Only those of people with property in more than one diocese are usually found in the PCC records. For a vicar you are much more likely to find one in the diocese records. Was there any property mentioned in Bernard's will? Have you found out how he obtained it by for example searching A2A. I have found that in this period the movement of property between relations is another very useful source of family details.
David
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Thanks for your comments and thoughts David.
You are correct in that Barnard was a Goldsmith/Banker. He signed his apprenticeship papers at Christmas 1654 where he was apprenticed to Robert Wellstead for a period of 8 years. I have a copy of his original signed apprenticeship papers where it states that he was the son of John Turner, Clerk of Wyddial Herts.
On the completion of his apprenticeship Barnard was granted his freedom on 8 Oct 1664. He, and his friend Sam Tookey, immediately opened their own private bank, called The Fleece or Golden Fleece in Lombard Street.
Having battled the effects of the plague the following year, the great fire on London in 1666, where Lombard Street was totally decimated, and then the stop on the exchequer by Charles II - where Barnard "lent" over £16,000 to the crown - Barnard Turner remained in business throughout these turbulent years.
He was certainly a member of the Goldsmith's Livery as he was chosen to be a member of the Court of Assistants (the governing body) on 2 November 1685.
His will doesn't mention any specific property by name unfortunately but according to A2A he certainly purchased a lot of land and homes in the nor'east of Herts.
He also records that his brother William was living with him at the time of writing his will. I found the burial of William Turner at Layston not long after Barnard's death.
I don't know if this William is the same guy as Sir William Turner who was a merchant in Lombard Street where he worked from his premises called, coincidently, The Fleece.
Unfortunately, although I have a lot of information about Barnard, I am still stuck with his father John Turner.
All I have is guesswork and speculation so far but I'll keep trying ::)
Appreciate your help
Di
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Just tripted over this site and found John .....
http://venn.csi.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/search.pl?sur=&suro=c&fir=&firo=c&cit=&cito=c&c=all&tex=TNR619J&sye=&eye=&col=all&maxcount=50
I'm not convinced about the dates - I have his nruial as 6th Mar 1666 ....
Regards
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Hi Church123,
Welcome to Rootschat and thanks for your interest and comments.
The information on your link is almost all the information I have about John Turner but I can confirm that he was buried in St Bartholomew's Church Layston on 6th March 1662/3 as I have just rechecked the original parish records.
Any other information that you have about the Rev John would be most welcome.
Thanks for your help
Di
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Did you say he went to Cambridge University? Do you know which college? Many of the college archivists are very helpful about tracking people down and finding out if there is any extra information about them. However, I had a look on Janus http://janus.lib.cam.ac.uk but couldn't see any one who could be your John Turner.
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My apologies Humpty - I should have answered your post a long time ago :-[
Thanks for checking janus records for me.
John Turner entered Clare college Cambs in Easter 1619. (BA 1622/3, MA 1626)
I have a summary of his time there from the Cambs Alumni - as per the link posted by Church123. Unfortunately that's the extent of the information. I wasn't aware that there were such people as the College Archivists for the Cambs Colleges so I'll see if I can find such a person and ask for their assistance.
Many thanks for your suggestion
Di
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No problem, Lady Di!
Here's the person you want:
http://www.clare.cam.ac.uk/about/archives/index.html
Ms. Elizabeth Stratton,
Edgar Bowering Archivist,
Clare College Archives,
Queens Road,
CAMBRIDGE
CB3 9AJ
Tel. 01223 765059 (answerphone available)
E-mail: archives@clare.cam.ac.uk
Let me know if you find you need anything from the University archives as I am currently working in the building and may be able to help.
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Thanks ever so much Humpty
I've sent Ms Stratton an email but don't expect much in return as John Turner/Turnor is a very common name and they probably don't have a lot of information about fellows once they leave. Still, I have my fingers crossed anyway ;D
Thanks for the offer of assistance in the Uni. I have quite a few rellies buried in the Kings Chapel but not too many in Clare college.
If you do happen to be visiting Kings Chapel (and I know it's not the 'done thing" :-X ) I wouldn't mind a picture of the place - inside or outside.
Sadly I don't expect there'd be too many burials or memorials still showing for the 1600's in the chapel though. :(
Thanks a lot :-*
Di