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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: lemonstaw on Friday 24 July 09 20:50 BST (UK)
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Hi
Can anyone help, Ive found a relative who was born in Ireland (Mary Ann Murray) she married Daniel McWilliams, Ive looked for a marriage certificate in the UK, but found nothing, which then leads me to think that they are both from Ireland and moved to Scotland.
Mary Ann Murray born around 1844
Daniel McWilliams born around 1844
Thanks :)
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Hi Lemonstraw
This might be their marriage from IGI www.familysearch.org:
DANIEL MCWILLIAMS and MARY ANN MURRAY
Marriage: 11 JUL 1865 Hutchesontown, Glasgow
The image of their marriage cert will be available to view on Scotlands People.
Monica :)
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Irish birth for both of them as you thought :) From the 1871 census:
Daniel McWilliams 26 labourer b. Ireland
Mary Ann McWilliams 25 b. Ireland
Daniel McWilliams 4 b. Glasgow
Thomas McWilliams 1 1/2 b. Glasgow
Daniel Murray 16, Sailmaker, brother in law b. Ireland
Frances Murray 13 Cabinet Maker, brother in law b. Ireland
Peter Fairey 19 boarder b. Ireland
Edward Gillon 22 boarder b. Edinburgh
Address: 63 King Street, Tradeston Glasgow Govan
Some children showing to them on IGI:
1. DANIEL MC WILLIAMS Birth: 18 APR 1867 Tradeston, Glasgow
2. THOMAS MC WILLIAMS Birth: 17 SEP 1869 Tradeston, Glasgow
3. ANNIE MCWILLIAMS Birth: 15 MAY 1872 Tradeston, Glasgow
4. JOHN MCWILLIAMS Birth: 18 OCT 1874 Hutchesontown, Glasgow
Regarding Daniel and Mary Ann's birth place in Ireland, you might be fortunate and find that they gave more information regarding where in Ireland they were from on one of their census entries.
Monica
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Hi Lemonstraw
This might be their marriage from IGI www.familysearch.org:
DANIEL MCWILLIAMS and MARY ANN MURRAY
Marriage: 11 JUL 1865 Hutchesontown, Glasgow
The image of their marriage cert will be available to view on Scotlands People.
Monica :)
Hi Monica
Thanks for that, found it on family search, but the funny thing is ive now went back to Scotlands people and the certificate's not coming up, its really weird.
I know Mary Ann Murray was from Ireland as I found her on the 1881 census and it says she was born in Ireland, do you have any ideas as to how i would research her background.
Thanks :)
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The marriage cert is there :) SP for some reason have left off the S on McWilliam(s) so if you search without it with the details as per IGI you will see it.
Best starting point for you will be the marriage entry which will include Mary Ann's parents. You also have two of her brothers' names from that 1871 entry which might help.
Did Daniel Snr die just before the 1881 census I wonder? He doesn't show from 1871 (although some later children born after that census). Mary Ann shows up to 1901 living with her children - Ireland for birth place on all the entries unfortunately :-\
Monica
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Irish birth for both of them as you thought :) From the 1871 census:
Daniel McWilliams 26 labourer b. Ireland
Mary Ann McWilliams 25 b. Ireland
Daniel McWilliams 4 b. Glasgow
Thomas McWilliams 1 1/2 b. Glasgow
Daniel Murray 16, Sailmaker, brother in law b. Ireland
Frances Murray 13 Cabinet Maker, brother in law b. Ireland
Peter Fairey 19 boarder b. Ireland
Edward Gillon 22 boarder b. Edinburgh
Address: 63 King Street, Tradeston Glasgow Govan
Some children showing to them on IGI:
1. DANIEL MC WILLIAMS Birth: 18 APR 1867 Tradeston, Glasgow
2. THOMAS MC WILLIAMS Birth: 17 SEP 1869 Tradeston, Glasgow
3. ANNIE MCWILLIAMS Birth: 15 MAY 1872 Tradeston, Glasgow
4. JOHN MCWILLIAMS Birth: 18 OCT 1874 Hutchesontown, Glasgow
Regarding Daniel and Mary Ann's birth place in Ireland, you might be fortunate and find that they gave more information regarding where in Ireland they were from on one of their census entries.
Monica
Thats great information, im just a beginner with my family tree its so interesting, ive now downloaded it from Scotlands People, did you get this information from family search?
:) :) :)
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The marriage cert is there :) SP for some reason have left off the S on McWilliam(s) so if you search without it with the details as per IGI you will see it.
Best starting point for you will be the marriage entry which will include Mary Ann's parents. You also have two of her brothers' names from that 1871 entry which might help.
Did Daniel Snr die just before the 1881 census I wonder? He doesn't show from 1871 (although some later children born after that census). Mary Ann shows up to 1901 living with her children - Ireland for birth place on all the entries unfortunately :-\
Monica
Great i will now go and look that up.
Its a sad story Daniel McWilliams died 2 days before Mary Ann gave birth to twin boys, and one of the boys only lived for 20mins, so sad :(
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Sad stories aren't they sometimes :'(
Were the family Roman Catholic?
Monica
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Sad stories aren't they sometimes :'(
Were the family Roman Catholic?
Monica
Yes Roman Catholic
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Mmmm :-\ Doesn't bode well for Irish records. Statutory registration didn't start in Ireland until 1864 so might be difficult to find records for both the McWilliam and Murray families and the birth of Daniel and Mary Ann....never mind that we don't know as yet where they originated from!
Just something to think about, something that somebody posted the other day on the Lanarkshire board. Not sure where you are based but if you are local to Glasgow and with the name of the church that Daniel and Mary Ann married at, you might want to check whether the church's registers are available to search to see whether any note was made at the time of their marriage of where in Ireland they came from.
Monica
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One other thought! Once you have the names of Daniel and Mary Ann from their marriage cert, why don't you post the details and maybe something can be found on them.
Monica
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Im local to glasgow, i will try the Mitchell Library as they seem to hold a lot of records.
Thanks for all your help, its moved me on a good bit as i now know both are from Ireland.
:) :) :) :)
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Remember Catholic records are not generally available as the Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) records are. You might have to make enquiries directly at the church where they married if it is still there or within the diocese for the area.
Monica
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One other thought! Once you have the names of Daniel and Mary Ann from their marriage cert, why don't you post the details and maybe something can be found on them.
Monica
Daniel McWilliams father was Daniel McWilliams snr mother Ann or Annie think her second name is Convery or Canvery
Mary Ann Murray father was James Murray and mother was Margaret Crawford.
Do you think its ok to post here or will I post on a new one????
Mary Ann and Daniel married at St Johns Chapel, Portugal Street, Glasgow, i think the chapel has been demolished. shame
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You could post on the General Ireland board for the parents with a link to this post for background.
It would also be worthwhile checking on the Scottish Censuses in case they came over with their children and you might find death certs on SP. Married women are always easier to search for because you can search with both married and maiden surnames. For example, there is one death showing for a Margaret Crawford/Murray born 1815 +/- 10yrs in Glasgow City. A word of caution as always with married women searches, you can't tell until you look at the entry which way round the names are (maiden/married).
Did both sets of parents show as alive/deceased at the time of the 1865 marriage. What were the occupations of the fathers?
Monica
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You could post on the General Ireland board for the parents with a link to this post for background.
It would also be worthwhile checking on the Scottish Censuses in case they came over with their children and you might find death certs on SP. Married women are always easier to search for because you can search with both married and maiden surnames. For example, there is one death showing for a Margaret Crawford/Murray born 1815 +/- 10yrs in Glasgow City. A word of caution as always with married women searches, you can't tell until you look at the entry which way round the names are (maiden/married).
Did both sets of parents show as alive/deceased at the time of the 1865 marriage. What were the occupations of the fathers?
Daniel McWilliams (alive) tailor
Ann (annie) deceased
James Murray (alive) im not sure of occupation its (something) labourer i think
Margaret Crawford (alive)
Monica
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Not seeing anything conclusive for parents on the censuses c. 1871/81. No death on SP showing for an Ann* Con* or Can*/McWilliam* so likely this was in Ireland?
Monica
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Not seeing anything conclusive for parents on the censuses c. 1871/81. No death on SP showing for an Ann* Con* or Can*/McWilliam* so likely this was in Ireland?
Monica
Thanks again for your help is appricated, i will post my questions on the Ireland board like you said.
:) :) :)
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Sorry i didnt read which area they married, but if he died as she gave birth chances are she would have applied for poor relief..thats where ive found most of mine after a death of a spouse.
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That's a great idea Pinkthistle :) The family lived in Glasgow and this is where Lemonstaw lives so the Mitchell Library would be a great place to search and see whether there could be anything for the family.
Monica
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Hi guys
Thanks for the lastest bit of information, can you only get poor relief records from the library?
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Which area were they from? Alot of them are on line then the mitchell can show you the originals and you can order copies...i was there last month (for the first time) and was lucky enough to not only find my womans poor relief application but that of her 'husbands' real wife :o with a letter from a 3rd woman saying she had been with him 12 years :o :o
That led me to the fact he had been put in an asylum where he subsequently died but that in turn led to a trial paper and a photo of him!!! The asylum had taken a photo to identify him and he had been jailed for attempted murder of the real wife!!! This was all in the space of about 3 hours...brilliant stuff.
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Which area were they from? Alot of them are on line then the mitchell can show you the originals and you can order copies...i was there last month (for the first time) and was lucky enough to not only find my womans poor relief application but that of her 'husbands' real wife :o with a letter from a 3rd woman saying she had been with him 12 years :o :o
That led me to the fact he had been put in an asylum where he subsequently died but that in turn led to a trial paper and a photo of him!!! The asylum had taken a photo to identify him and he had been jailed for attempted murder of the real wife!!! This was all in the space of about 3 hours...brilliant stuff.
Glasgow area...........Blimey your story is so interesting, its amazing what you find out, some stories are so sad which was the case in one of my relatives, but yours is just great, if you dont mind me saying (3 wives and wanting to murder the first), to be able to get that sort of info is just mind blowing, well I work just round the corner from the mitchell so i will be making a trip round after work.
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have you joined http://scotfamtree.11.forumer.com/ ? Brilliant wee site and everyone is really friendly...it was on there i got my brickwall smashed in a few days..i didnt even know this guys name, it was the 1st 'non wife' I was looking for. I had only her death cert and her mothers name and a couple of possibles for her children as i was always told their dad was a bigamist so I had no names to narrow down the search....literally within a week i had all 5 surnames she used ::)..the 3 her mother used...it just went on and on...look my posts up on there same username.
Anyway everyone is really helpfull, I was actually met at the Mitchel by 3 members who showed me what to do, you will have to subscribe to tier 2 to get someone to actually go look something up for you, but its nothing and well worth it!
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have you joined http://scotfamtree.11.forumer.com/ ? Brilliant wee site and everyone is really friendly...it was on there i got my brickwall smashed in a few days..i didnt even know this guys name, it was the 1st 'non wife' I was looking for. I had only her death cert and her mothers name and a couple of possibles for her children as i was always told their dad was a bigamist so I had no names to narrow down the search....literally within a week i had all 5 surnames she used ::)..the 3 her mother used...it just went on and on...look my posts up on there same username.
Anyway everyone is really helpfull, I was actually met at the Mitchel by 3 members who showed me what to do, you will have to subscribe to tier 2 to get someone to actually go look something up for you, but its nothing and well worth it!
Ive not joined yet, but i will be, its great when people go out of the way to help, ive had a fantastic response and everyone here is very helpful, im so glad ive found this site, imagine 3 people coming to meet you to show you the ropes, thats fab. Your story is great, i will be checking it out when I get registered on the other site. What amazes me is how quick people can get the info for you, when you have tried in vain for days to try and crack it.
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Is this her death? Dont know if you already have it or not, its on Scotlands people.
1927 MCWILLIAMS MARY ANN MURRAY F 81 POLLOKSHIELDS GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/18
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Ye ive got her death certificate thanks, what im trying to find out is in which part of Ireland her and Daniel came from, i need to find out what happened to the parish records from St Johns Chapel as its been demloished.
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Probably at the Mitchell too...theyve got everything and the staff are really helpfull too...i loved my day, didnt want to leave and as i live in Spain im glad ive found this and SFT to help me out...i just wish i had got into this when i was still in Glasgow!! Would have beenmuch easier ::)
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Probably at the Mitchell too...theyve got everything and the staff are really helpfull too...i loved my day, didnt want to leave and as i live in Spain im glad ive found this and SFT to help me out...i just wish i had got into this when i was still in Glasgow!! Would have beenmuch easier ::)
My friend thinks im mad doing this, i only started 2 weeks ago and i love it, im not normaly up this late but cant help myself lately its just so additive, im looking forward to going to the Mitchell Library now, they will have to throw me out when its shuting time, with you living in Spain if there is anything i can do for you when im at the library just let me know. Thanks for your help its so appriciated, have you been at your family tree long, people said it can take forever ???
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Ive only been doing this since Christmas but its my Irish ones that have me up late...
:D Do you have a date for James death?
I found this:
Title:
Forename: James
Surname: Murray
Alt Surname:
Date Of Death: 26/03/1899
Date Of Grant: 02/10/1899
Effects: Effects £162 15s.
Registry: Belfast
Full Abstract:
Administration of the estate of James Murray late of Drinn County Down Farmer who died 26 March 1899 granted at Belfast to Margaret Murray of Drinn the Widow.
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Ive only been doing this since Christmas but its my Irish ones that have me up late...
:D Do you have a date for James death?
I found this:
Title:
Forename: James
Surname: Murray
Alt Surname:
Date Of Death: 26/03/1899
Date Of Grant: 02/10/1899
Effects: Effects £162 15s.
Registry: Belfast
Full Abstract:
Administration of the estate of James Murray late of Drinn County Down Farmer who died 26 March 1899 granted at Belfast to Margaret Murray of Drinn the Widow.
Blimey, i had nothing at all on my irish ansectors, i didnt even know what part of Ireland they came from, i have nothing to go on apart from that Mary Ann and Daniel came from Ireland to Scotland, is this like a will of some sort ???
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its the PRONI Public Records office of Northern Ireland web site, thats where i got my guy from Moneymore...go to
www.proni.gov.uk (http://www.proni.gov.uk) its in the wills callendars section, click search will calendar and put your names in ( i found that one on page 3) you might find that some of the others are brothers with any luck. It might be nothing but its a start...hey yours were quite rich considering, my farmer died a year later and only left the widow 10 quid! ::)
Yours (if its them) would be thousands by todays inflation...im sure someone will work it out for you ;)
Lets see if Margaret left anything to anyone...what else are sleepless nights for?
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There is only this one in the same county but a different district, you would need to search the areas and see how close they were and also more possible children for James and Margaret. Have you tried the IGI site? You can search just putting the parents names in..
Title:
Forename: Margaret
Surname: Murray
Alt Surname:
Date Of Death: 26/09/1904
Date Of Grant: 02/11/1904
Effects: Effects £48 15s.
Registry: Belfast
Full Abstract:
Probate of the Will of Margaret Murray late of Ravara County Down Widow who died 26 September 1904 granted at Belfast to Bridget Murray and Martha Murray Spinsters and John Murray Farmer
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its the PRONI Public Records office of Northern Ireland web site, thats where i got my guy from Moneymore...go to
www.proni.gov.uk (http://www.proni.gov.uk) its in the wills callendars section, click search will calendar and put your names in ( i found that one on page 3) you might find that some of the others are brothers with any luck. It might be nothing but its a start...hey yours were quite rich considering, my farmer died a year later and only left the widow 10 quid! ::)
Yours (if its them) would be thousands by todays inflation...im sure someone will work it out for you ;)
Lets see if Margaret left anything to anyone...what else are sleepless nights for?
LOL you are soooo funny, ive had a wee quick look, this is another fantastic site, i just need to find out if this is the people im looking for....... imagine leaving a tenner surley the farm must have been worth more than that lol
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There is only this one in the same county but a different district, you would need to search the areas and see how close they were and also more possible children for James and Margaret. Have you tried the IGI site? You can search just putting the parents names in..
Title:
Forename: Margaret
Surname: Murray
Alt Surname:
Date Of Death: 26/09/1904
Date Of Grant: 02/11/1904
Effects: Effects £48 15s.
Registry: Belfast
Full Abstract:
Probate of the Will of Margaret Murray late of Ravara County Down Widow who died 26 September 1904 granted at Belfast to Bridget Murray and Martha Murray Spinsters and John Murray Farmer
Well she spent a fair bit in the 5 years since her mans death :D :D :D :D
I will try IGI
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If you go to the bottom of the home page there is a link that says See prototype for searching millions of records, once you have the results up you can narrow down the search by place etc
Good luck, i hope they turn out to be yours, i know what its like to be on a roll...then get no further ;) And good luck at the Mitchell, you will love it...maybe see you on SFT?
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Thanks again
You've made me laugh out loud with your stories etc. :D :D :D :D :D
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This is a great link posted by someone some time ago which includes STV films on the Mitchell Library. In particular, in respect of poor relief applications, see Part 5 and 6. The rest of the series is also worth a look :)
www.scotlandontv.tv/scotland_on_tv/discover/Mitchell_Library_Scottish_Family_Research.html
Monica
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This is a great link posted by someone some time ago which includes STV films on the Mitchell Library. In particular, in respect of poor relief applications, see Part 5 and 6. The rest of the series is also worth a look :)
www.scotlandontv.tv/scotland_on_tv/discover/Mitchell_Library_Scottish_Family_Research.html
Monica
thanks Monica i had a look, its great, im going to the Mitchell Library next week....