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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Laura444 on Monday 20 July 09 17:53 BST (UK)
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Greetings to all on this message board ;D
I am hoping to request a look up for a marriage when someone has the opportunity to look into the appropriate records.
Details as follows:
Groom - George Montague BURTON in Devonport, England
Date - 10th July 1847
Bride - Unknown
Genuine apologies for not being able to narrow further to a specific church.
Background information that may assist:
This fellow seems to be a bit of a rogue ::) He has popped up in my ancestry as the second husband of my 3x gr.grandmother.
On the marriage certificate to my 3x gr.grandmother in 1869, Victoria, Australia, George Montague BURTON is widowed (March 1867) and all 5 children of this first marriage are indicated as dead.
Various documents indicate his place of Birth as Dublin Ireland, however one mentions Devonport, Plymouth.
His parents are noted as Alfred Leopold BURTON - Ordinance Officer and Mary Ann BARNAN (?sp)
His d.o.b appears to be c1820/1821 based on the sum of many documents!
I would be very grateful for any light that can be shed on this group. I have tried all soughts of online lists but have been foiled so far!
Thank you in advance to those considering this query. All suggestions gratefully received.
Kind regards,
Laura Roemkens
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Hi Laura
Where did you get the date of marriage from?
There is no 1847 marriage on freebmd or the IGI. IGI entries would have included his wife's name
Without the name of the church - it makes searching difficult
Could this have been a Naval marriage as Devonport was a naval base
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Well, he didn't marry in the Church of England around Devonport area, nor is a marriage shown on FREEBMD in 1847. From where did you get that date?
The following entry in the 1851 census seems likely:
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Hi CaroeW,
Many thanks for your interest in this query. I also have been disappointed in not finding anything on IGI or FreeBMD.
The date of marriage I found noted on the birth certificate of his first child to his second marriage.
On Victorian (Australia) Birth certificates there is a column requesting "when and where married" and "issue living and deceased".
In this column it notes date and place of both marriages as well as the names of the deceased children.
Children's names vary between two different records, and are:
Record one:
Mary Ann, Frederich, Alfred, Florence and George.
Record two:
Charles, George Montezure, Alfred Leopold, Charlotte and Albertend.
I cannot guess whether this was a Naval marriage or not. George Montague BURTON's occupations in his Australian life were contractor and painter.
I am sorry I cannot add more details yet. Would it be easier to track burials for children (ie George or Alfred) ??
Thank you again for your willingness to assist.
Regards, Laura
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Sorry - I sent you a message which I should have done as a reply but I messed up. So here it is. You answered some of my questions in your reply to others so I will see what I can find for you.
Laura,
I found a family tree that shows a George Montague Burton, marrying Eliza Daley in 1869 Australia, and dying in 1905 Essendon, Australia.
They say he was born 1842 Dublin which does not match. They then show a link to 1851 census for St. Lukes, Middlesex, London which they say is his family but in that census he is shown as born London, not Dublin?? So their own information does not agree with their source. I am wondering if they have the birth year wrong and have just found a family in England with a son of same name and assumed it was him??
Can you tell me the name of wife your George married.
It is hard to find Irish census but I have access to the England census so will try to find him there with first wife. I just wanted to confirm his possible birth year.
I know you don't know the name of his first wife, but do you know name of any of children from that marriage?
Do you know when he went to Australia? Should he be in both 1851 and 1861 census for England?
Carolyn L
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Hello
There's a thread on an Ancestry forum suggesting that the George Montague BURTON who married Eliza HARRINGTON nee DAL(E)Y in Victoria in 1869 subsequently died in Essendon in 1905 aged 63 (having been born in Dublin in 1842). It also suggests that at death his parents were listed as George Howe BURTON and Mary STEEL.
You may have information which contradicts the above (or it may be irrelevant to your tree) but I thought I should mention it!
Anna :)
Sorry to Carolyn for some duplication here
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Hello DOB7, CaroleW, Anne and Carolyn L,
Thank you very much for your posts.
You are correct! I omitted the details of his second marriage so as not to confuse in this look up regarding his first marriage.
I have recently come into contact with the lady that has posted the tree you have noted on Ancestry....she is descended from the second child of George Montuague BURTON and Eliza/beth DAL(E)Y, and I am descended from a child of Eliza's first marriage to John HARRINGTON. There has been some incorrect advice given to hear in the past and I hope that together we can straighten out all the details!
The parents of George Montague BURTON I have indicated are those noted on his marriage certificate, so the best to believe in the first instance.......(though we all would know sometimes doesn't work out to be the case... :o)
I would be very grateful for anything that may be found in Devon records that would assist in filling some of the gaps in George Montague BURTON's early life.
Based on the sum of all certificates I have for George Montague BURTON, I believe his d.o.b can be estimated at c1820/1821. This would also fit with a 1847 date for his first marriage.
I am checking to see if what information is recorded on his death certificate today, though I do believe his date of death to be accurate at 1905.
Many thanks for all time and thoughts so kindly offered.
Regards, Laura
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ohhh....why does this happen...LOL :'(
Just printed out Goerge Montague BURTON's 1905 Death Certificate.
I can't see an option to attach, so transcribe:
George Montague BURTON
Occupation - Night Watchman
Age at death - 65 years (making birth c1840)
Parents - father - George Howe BURTON - Military Officer
mother - mary BURTON formerly STEEL
Death Informant - Wife - J.E. BURTON
Religious Minister - Methodist
Place of Birth - Yorkshire, England
In Australian Colonies - 40 years
If deceased was Married and issue of marriages:
First marriage - unknown, children unknown
Second marriage - in South Melbourne, Victoria at 56 years to Jane Elizabeth SYKES; no issue from second marriage.
Now, we have ENTIRELY different accounts of place of birth, parents, age. The two living son's from his marriage to Eliza DALY obviously were no longer in contact with him either., or at least not to his last wife's knowledge.
If the details on this death certificate were true, it's not possible that he was married in 1847...he would have been 7 years old!!
Crumbs....this will take some detangling....terribly grateful for opinions on how to differentiate the lies from the truth!!
Regards,
Laura
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Hmmm...
Other than his name, there seems to be no overlap at all between the George Montague BURTON who died in Essendon in 1905 and the one who was married to Eliza(beth) nee DAL(E)Y in 1869. Is there any reason to think that they are the same person? Do you know that Eliza(beth)'s husband George went on to marry a Jane Elizabeth SYKES?
Anna
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I would suggest you search censuses - 1841 & 1851 at least to see if you can spot a likely character.
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Hello Anna and DOB7,
Thank you for your messages ;D
Anna, yes, I have now a similiar thought, but I didn't imagine there could be two George Montague BURTON's kicking around in the suburbs of Melbourne at the same time in the 1800's. The one factor that leads me to consider it may be the one person is that the death certificate of one of George Montague BURTON's son's indicates parents as George BURTON and Jean BURTON...perhaps the Jane Elizabeth he "married" as third wife.
I've gone back to the VIC BDM's and searched for George BURTON death between 1877 (the year the last child to second wife was born) and 1930. There is only one other possibility - where both parents are listed as unknown, other than the death in 1905 noted above.
Perhaps I can find George BURTON b.1842 leaving his parents in England and see if that fits with dates for marriages out here in Australia......perhaps that son of George Howe BURTON never left England??? Worth trying!
DOB7,
I will go back to the censuses and try more combinations...who knows if luck will be on our side!
Thank you again for all time and effort spent on my query.
Kind regards,
Laura
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Hi Laura,
On lookup requests boards it is not possible to add attachments. It is not permitted to attach complete certificates on any board I am afraid, due to copyright issues. On some boards a small section may be posted to allow you to get a little help in working out what it says. Other than that you do need to transcribe the information from the cert.
We do not seem to be getting anywhere with this in Devon therefore I am going to send it to Australia to see if anything can be found to help. I tend to agree with Anna that looking at this it does not appear to be the same person. I note on one of your lists of George's Children is a George Montezure. Just wondering if that may even be the man who died in 1905. :-\
I note that in the 1903 Electoral Roll at - 9 Marshall St, Moonee Ponds
BURTON George Montague - Painter
BURTON Jay Elizabeth - Registered Nurse
Cheers Kris :)
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Laura may I suggest you google George's full name. There are many requests and replies on many family history forums about a man that is either him or someone of the same name. May help with the elimination process.
Where and when did Eliza HARRINGTON/DALY/EY/BURTON die?
Cheers
Cando
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A couple of directory entries
1875
BURTON George M Well Street, Brighton Painter
1880
BURTON G M Well Street, Brighton West No occupation
1884 No entry for G M BURTON in the directory.
There is this death :-\ :-\ A bit of a longshot really.
BURTON George
At Sandhurst 1888 Reg#3647 Parents unknown 69 years
Burial record at Bendigo for this George.
http://www.bencemtrust.com.au/search.asp
There was a mention of a BURTON/SYKES marriage - this is the only one I can find during the period. It was stated that George married at 56 years of age and he died aged 65. There should be a marriage c1894 :-\ The name on the marriage and death certs differs.
BURTON Geo Mulhall b. England
SYKES Elizabeth b. England
1898 Reg#1425
Has this certificate been sighted? If not, it may be useful to download it and compare it with the George Montague's signature on the 1869 marriage ie if you think it is your George. :-\ :-\
I have trawled the indexes and my gut feeling is, you have already mentioned, that George M [whatever his 2nd given name ::) ::)] was a bit of a rogue, and I think this is your man.
Where was George Montague BURTON who died in 1905, buried? The cemetery should be named on the death certificate.
A tad difficult when there is so much conflicting information and someone was obviously telling porkies ;) ::)
Cheers
Cando
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Hi all ;D
Thank you very much for all your thoughts.
Let me try to answer all questions in one go here:
1. The Wells Street George M BURTON indicated above from the directories is the George Burton who married Eliza DALY in 1869. All three of their children were born at that address. In fact the first was born 2 months before they were married...making his conception Januray 1869. Eliza's first husband died 26th February 1868.
2. There are actually 3 George BURTON deaths in the VIC BDM which indicate parents unknown, which are possiblities. It may mean buying all three, but if he died alone, and did not wish to divulge past, there may be very little on them. I've struck this problem before.
3. The marriage of George MulHull BURTON and Elizabeth Sykes will be the one for the George BURTON who dies in 1905 in Essendon.
4. The George Montague BURTON that you see so frequently on the internet has been posted by the lady that I am now in contact with...LOL...she also has been given conflicting stories.
5. Eliza DALY's death certficate was in the name Elizabeth HARRINGTON. She died of an anurism of the brain on 29 March 1889. Although the three children she had with her second husband are listed on this death certificate, George BURTON is not mentioned anywhere. Not even a reference to him as a second marriage. Interestingly, the undertaker is E. BURTON. I have tried to trace this name to find the business ...but to no luck. The omissions on this cert are a really quandry.
6. Krisesjoint, thanks for the offer of passing it back to Australia. I have tried many angles here, but perhaps someone else can seee or access diffferent resources than already tried. The Moonee POnds Electoral Roll you refer to is one of the few for any year that come up. This fellow is the son of George Howe BURTON and Mary Ann Steel and is the fellow who died Essendon in 1905. I
7. My thought in requesting a look up of marriage in Devonport is that I can at least verify if MY George Montague BURTON did exist and marry at this time (10 July 1847), and if the marriage didn't appear perhaps a death of the alledged wife or five children.
8. A final thought that does start to make me believe that 2 George Montague BURTON's existed is that the son of George Howe BURTON married in 1871 (Ann PIPER) in the UK, while MINE was married in Victoria, Australia in 1869. Goerge and Eliza went on the have three children from 1869 to 1877.
I believe that the son of George Howe BURTON did come to Australia, and that's who died at Essendon in 1905!
9. Cando makes a very good point about comparing signatures....my George could write and signed his own name on documents.....Eliza DALY could only leave her mark. So comapring the marriage certificates could really shed some light.
Thank you again for all time and thoughts so far. I am very grateful for all!
Kind regards, Laura
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Just quickly...where is Elizabeth HARRINGTON buried. It will be on the death cert?
I have found a reference to an Elizabeth ?BURTON and George BURTON and maintenance in ?1886. Newspaper report not digitised as yet on the NLA beta website.
I have found a reference to Missing Friends [paid advertisements in the Argus newspaper - a way of contacting new arrivals in the colony - a message service] to a George BURTON of Falmouth in Oct and Nov 1853. These may to be too early for your George. The newspapers in question have not been digitised as yet. Patience is a virtue in this hobby of ours ;)
I would think the comparisons of the the signatures on the 1869 and 1898 marriage certificates is the way to move forward with your research. He could have changed his name but it would be difficult to completely alter one's signature.
Will post more snippets as I find them.
Cheers
Cando
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I see Elizabeth HARRINGTON died Prahran and a search of nearby cemeteries
St Kilda Cemetery
HARRINGTON Eliza
Date of Service 29 Mar 1889 51 years
Burial Roman Catholic - Monumental Grave Compt C Grave 691
This memorial is held in perpetuity - for all time
and George is at Springvale
Springvale Botanical Cemetery
BURTON George M
Date of Service 13 May 1905
Burial Church of England - Monumental Compartment A Section 19 Grave 6
Public Grave No
This memorial is held in perpetuity - for all time
Cheers
Cando
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certainly a rogue
Police Gazette 15 Jun 1887
John RYAN alias George BURTON is charged on warrant with false pretences on Richard DRAKE 74 Queensberry St Hotham on the 4th instant.
Description: English, painter about 58 years of age, 5’7 or 8 high, medium build, fair complexion, dark hair, small sandy goatee mixed with grey otherwise clean shaven, thin features, talkative, wore dark coat, light trousers and vest and black boxer hat. Lately lived at the Red Lion Hotel, Drummond Street, Carlton. See previous notice
0.4585 10 June 1887
A note that he had been arrested by Malvern Police
0.4585 12 Sep 1887
Police Gazette - 29 Jun 1887
George BURTON is charged on warrant with false pretences on John WISHART Grocer of Inkerman and Chapel Streets St Kilda on the 13th Ultimo.
Description: Painter 60 years of age, 5’5 inches high, fair complexion, sandy goatee turning grey otherwise clean shaved. Fond of playing a concertina in hotels. Identical to John RYAN alias George BURTON see police gazette 1887 page 184. Defendant obtained £7 10 shillings from complainant by means of a valueless check.
0.5012 - 27 June 1887
There is a note that this warrant was cancelled
0.5013 - 23 Sep 1887
Cheers Kris :)
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Listed as discharged from Prison 10 Oct 1888
RYAN John alias BURTON
Also noted this Charles Burton :-\
wife Eliza and in same st where Richard DRAKE from earlier report lived.
Police Gazette 27 Jan 1886
Charles BURTON is charged on warrant with deserting his wife Eliza BURTON 105 Queensberry St Hotham on the 14th instant
Description: Irish painter and paperhanger about 60 years of age, about 5'8" high, slender build supposed to be clean shaven except a sandy mostache which is turning grey. One or two joints of fourth finger of right hand missing. Old scar on back of neck. Wore dark clothes and steel albert. Appearance of a card sharper. Has been recently in Castle Maine where he is known as Charles Thomas George BURKE. He is suspected of committing Bigamy. Supposed to be now in Melbourne.
0.531 25 Jan 1886
Arrested in South Melbourne for wife desertion
0.531 13 Feb 1886
0.531 20 Feb 1886
Charles BURTON - wife desertion. This offender is identical with John George Thomas BOURKE, charged with wife desertion in P.G. 1866
Looks like this chap was being looked for in 1869
http://ndpbeta.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5808993?searchTerm=%22John+George+Thomas+BOURKE%22
Cheers Kris :)
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Hi Cando and Krisesjoint ;D
Thank you both very much for looking up this information.
Cando...you are COMPLETELY correct about the signatures....they do match! I can see the NLA beta article you are mentioning...there's a couple there I'll be watching to open!!! Thanks for finding the maintenance reference! It really starts to put some flesh to the story about what was going on.
In the same grave as Elizabeth HARRINGTON are:
Frank CARROLL - buried 30/10/1896
Catherine CARROLL - buried 27/02/1888
Arthur CARROLL - buried 26/11/1887
Pearlie HOLLINGSWORTH - buried 18/06/1903
All were young children, I assume the grandchildren or other family of Eliza's. Though I haven't found a connection to either of the surnames as yet.
Krisesjoint.....thanks for the Police Gazette information. He really was a naughty boy eh? JohnRYAN may be his real name?? Now you start to wonder if he assumed the identity of George Montague BURTON - son of George Howe BURTON and Mary STEEL. His age from the police reports definitely puts him at d.o.b c1820's, and the above couple's son was born 1840's.
Is it possible gain access or copies of police or gaol records in Victoria through the Public Records Office (PROV)? And have they contained any useful information? My experience is primarily in dealing with NSW State Records.
Charles BURTON - wife desertion. This offender is identical with John George Thomas BOURKE, charged with wife desertion in P.G. 1866
Where is the PG mentioned here? Maybe there really was a first wife....you'd have to imagine there was if he married in his 50's to Eliza DALY/HARRINGTON.
Quite the dodgy one one he looks to be... ::)
Thanks again for all the help with this tricky guy!....I'll off to the online PROV to see what is there!
Many thanks again for all the time and care taken. It is well appreciated ;D
Best wishes,
Laura
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Hi Krisesjoint,
Regarding the NLA beta article about John George Thomas BURTON you noted above -
The occupier at 77 Collins Street East in 1869 was:
•1869.
77 Collins Street East, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.
Printers and Publishers. (Punch Office). [SM 1869].
This is "Punch" that was the satirical/political cartoonist popular in many publications at this time.
How this fits...goodness only knows...just though I'd add :)
Regards, Laura
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Deaths of those interred with Eliza
CARROLL Frank
Father Carroll John Mother Catherine HARRINGTON
2 years Died at Melbourne Hospital 1896 Reg#14214
CARROLL Catherine
Father John Mother Catherine HARRINGTON
2 years at South Yarra 1888 Reg#3878
CARROLL Arthur
Father John Mother Catherine HARRINGTON
4 years at Prahran 1887 Reg#15121
HOLLINGSWORTH Pearlie Isabel
Father Hollingsworth John Mother Kate HARRINGTON
1 year at South Yarra 1903 Reg#7577
I can't see a CARROLL/HARRINGTON marriage and here are some births to Kate HARRINGTON.
I think the birth has actually been registered twice after the death in 1896 hence the R symbol on the registration number.
HARRINGTON Frank
Father Unknown Mother Kate HARRINGTON
At Brunswick 1897 Reg#9019R
STEVENS Frank
Father Unknown Mother Kate HARRINGTON
At Brunswick 1897 Reg#9019R
CARROLL Leslie Bertram
Father John Mother Catherine HARRINGTON
At South Yarra 1888 Reg#15760
There is no birth registration for a Pearlie Isobel CARROLL in either the HOLLINGSWORTH or HARRINGTON name.
Then we have this birth to Kate HARRINGTON and
STEVENS Nellie
Father Geo Mother Kate HARRINGTON
At Jambunna 1895 Reg# 4446
and a marriage ;D
HARRINGTON Catherine b. Daylesford
STEVENS George b. Daylesford
1892 Reg#6560
This could be his death
STEVENS Geo
Father Wm David Mother Eliza LEICH
27 years at Daylesford 1895 Reg#1368
Leave you to sort this out. Perhaps place in chronological order to make sense of it.
Cheers
Cando
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Hi cando,
Thank you very much for looking up these records.
This family really made their lives as difficult and complicated as possible didn't they!
I'll arrange them chronologically as suggested and see if I can make some sense of all these!
Many thanks again for your time and thoughts.
Regards,
Laura :)