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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: shakel on Tuesday 14 July 09 22:51 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I have an ancestor - John William Watson - born 1835 who was listed on the 1861 Census as being with the "Private Royal Horse Guards" - London.
Is there any way of finding out more about the Guards or perhaps finding some more information about John Watson?
Shakel
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Hi Shakel
If you can get to Kew you can see if his service record survives in series WO97. How they are filed depends on when he was discharged - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/step4.htm
Otherwise you will have to wait for Findmypast to put them online (by 2011). If his papers have not survived you will find him in the Muster Books and Pay Lists (WO12). You will have to visit Kew to research these. They will tell you where he was month by month.
By Royal Horse Guards they probably mean the Royal Regiment of Horse Guards, which was next in line after the two regiments of Life Guards. These regiments actually lead very boring lives. They did not venture overseas between 1816 and the 1880s, and probably only served in London and Windsor.
The Life Guards wore scarlet tunics with blue facings (collars and cuffs), while the Horse Guards wore the reverse. They are the Blues of the ‘Blues and Royals’
You could also contact guardsmuseum@aol.com. They do research for the foot guards, so should be able to advise about research in the Household Cavalry. Although they will expect a donation.
Ken
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Hi Ken,
thank you so much for that detailed information. Looks like I'll have to wait til 2011 or contact the Guards Museum, as I live in Australia.
You help is very much appreciated.
Shakel
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Give the National Archives online a search. I was able to get the Attestation papers and discharge details for my ancestor who was in the Life Guards from 1815 - 1840. They photocopied them and mailed them to me for a reasonable price. I also do not live in the UK. :-))
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Hi Griz
That's good news - thanks for that info - I'll have a look on the Archives - see if I can find him.
Shakel
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I think you will find that it is only the records of men discharged before the end of 1854 that can be searched for online, and then ordered by post.
Because of the man's dates I did not give this option.
Ken
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Oh - that's why I didn't find him.
Thanks Ken
Shakel
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I've just downloaded the discharge papers of my 3gp James RUTHERFORD who was also at Regents Park Barracks in the 1861/71 censuses. He enlisted in Edinburgh in 1855 and was discharged aged 42 at the end of his 2nd contract, in 1876. Having thus obtained his p/dob, I cannot find his baptism (Scotlands People) (b. [November 1834] parish of Holdfast nr Haddington, East Lothian), nor find him in 1841/51.
Was there a minimum age for enlisting? Was documentary proof required as to p/dob? (Wondering if he dissembled.)
Might his enlistment attestation include next of kin, address, parents?
I've been trying to find his family for 10yrs ...
James received a silver medal on leaving (good conduct, long service, only once a defaulter) - is it possible to obtain a copy?
I cannot find his marriage - to Lydia GREEN(A)WAY of Hounslow and Hammersmith, Mddx. Were the troopers forbidden to marry?
Any help greatly appreciated.
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Hi Griz
That's good news - thanks for that info - I'll have a look on the Archives - see if I can find him.
Shakel
Hi,
The Guards Regiments I understand are the one section of British Army Regiments that keep a copy of their own records as well as submitting them in the way other Regiments do. At one time there was an Archivist at Combermere Barracks in Windsor who would look things up (I have no idea whether a fee was charged - probably). I suspect that now there is a new Guards Museum in Horseguards, London, they may well all be there now but if you are going to try this approach try Combermere Barracks first because they certainly did have them up until a couple of years ago.
Sue
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The RHG became part of the Household Cavalry rather than being Foot Guards. Their copies of records are supposed to be in WO400 in the National Archives - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=3&CATID=60539&SearchInit=4&SearchType=6&CATREF=WO400 – rather than in their museum. Although it is always worth asking – unless they expect a ‘donation’.
But as you have his 'discharge' papers, I believe you already have all that is available - enlistment/attestment are filed with any discharge papers to form a man's 'service record'. Looking for a museum copy is usually only necessary when a man died while serving, as the War Office would have destroyed his papers 20 years later, while the regimental museums had their own policy.
The minimum age to be a Private/Trooper was usually 18. Generally people did not need birth certificates until old age pensions were introduced in Edwardian times. They certainly do not need one to join the army. Army forms do not record next of kin until c1880.
I do not understand the bit about his LSGC medal and you obtaining a copy. If his papers do not include information on him being in the defaulter’s book, there is no other sources. It is likely to be for a minor crime like being late off furlough, or missing a bit of kit. His ‘record’ should tell you if he lost a good conduct badge because of it or received (say) 3 days CB – confined to barracks. If not, that part of his record has been culled in the intervening 146 years to save space.
Ken
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I downloaded James RUTHERFORD's discharge papers from findmypast. However, he enlisted in Edinburgh, Scotland, so would those papers be archived elsewhere? Or have been copied over into the discharge papers? I've found some next-of-kin, addresses, etc., for other regiments pre-1880. Just luck I suppose. I need some for this James, otherwise I'll never find his family.
The discharge papers listed his good conduct badges, defaulters (one), and mentioned the silver medal for good conduct and long service - that's what I'd like a copy of, the medal.
Dean1: I'm curious about the little photo; I have a very similar one (different dress, lady) probably of JR's wife.
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Hi,
The lady in the photograph is Sarah Ellen Sutcliffe 1845-1902. She was born in Blackburn, Lancs and married Christopher Cronshaw 1845 - 1900. He was born in Accrington, Lancashire. They were my G Grandparents on the paternal side.
Sue