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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: kazzann on Monday 13 July 09 14:07 BST (UK)
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Hi there,
Looking for suggestions regarding my "Reid"family research.
I am desperately trying to find the family of a James Reid that was born somewhere in Perthshire 1836. According to James's wedding certificate in 1861 (at Derbyshire) James's father was named Robert Reid and profession was given as "Bailliff.
I have records of my James from the 1861 census onwards, he was a gardener ( and went on to becoming head gardener at Halls and large establishments throughout England until his death in 1896), living in Staffordshire, Cheshire and later Derbyshire. Married to Elizabeth Taylor (in 1863) native of Yorkshire, they had children by the names of James, Robert, Helen, Elizabeth, and Margaret.
I have found an entry in the "Äuchterarder" parish records that gives the birth of a James Reid born to Robert reid and Helen Paton in 1836 which are the correct names (if I am to consider the family naming pattern) and correct birth year. But , when I found the same family in the 1851 census (Gato Side, Forgandenny), James is an apprentice gardener but the father Robert,
has given his profession as a "Laboror"" then in the 1861 a "Shepherd".
Can anyone suggest whether I should persist looking for a Robert Reid whose profession is a Baillif (as James's Marraige certificate states), I have done numerous census searches looking for Robert Reid with profesion as a baillif but have not been able to come up with any (except for one that was born in Wales!!).
Could it be possible for a labourer/sheperd in the 1860's to double as a Bailliff???
Any suggestions??? I'm so eager to discover where and who my James Reids parents were and where he was born, I dont know what to do next.
Any census material that I have found James in (from 1861-1891), only ever states that he was born in Perthshire.
regards Karen (Kazzann)
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Hi Karen
Have you seen this http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/REID/2000-06/0960823424 Given the name of the poster, wondered whether it was yours :)
In respect of the info showing there, wondered whether the 1816 OPR marriage entry actually showed Robert as bailiff which would help you in your searches and verification of parents. Also what information showed on the OPR birth of a James in 1834 in respect of father Robert.
Monica :)
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You didn't mention the 1841 census so not sure if you have this:
Robert Reid 41, agr. lab.
Helen Reid 43
John Reid 20
James Reid 7
Address: Gato Side, Forgandenny
Monica
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Hello Monica, thankyou for your suggestions.
Yes, that was my post back at the turn of the century. I was high hoping that this particular Reid family were mine,(and presumed also that this Robert was the baillif, once again, high hoping!!!) , as you can see, I have doubts that need to be cleared. I did find that particular birth entry for James in the original OPR', no mention of fathers profession. Found the marraige of Robert to Helen as well, also no mention of profession.
But, considering I found (I hope!!) this Roberts mothers name being Margaret, it once again fits with the naming pattern of James's children would you agree? (This Robert and Helen had another son- the only other child to them that I can find born in 1816 , and they called him "John")- (now this is interesting because James son known as 'Rpobert' was actually christened as "John Robert Reid "!!, )
Thankyou for the 41 census. I'll have to find what "Gato- side" was.
Idea!!!just thought that if I find this Roberts death certificate, it could shed some light on things. I'll have to look into this!!! regards Karen
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Hi Karen
I think Helen mother died in 1866 in Forgandenny, there is a Helen Paton/Reid showing there. Birth year shows as 1790 which is a little earlier than showing on the censuses.
Monica
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Hi Monica, thanks for that.
Where did you find it?? Was it the parish records?? ( I don't suppose you came across Robert Reid by any chance!!!???)
I would say this is my Helen as she is given a different age in every census!
1841 - aged 43-- therefore born approx 1794
1851 - aged 55-- therefore born approx 1796
!861 - aged 70-- therefore born approx 1791.
They are quite big differences hey, but
how many Helen Paton/Reids could there have been in Forgandenny!!! From what I can gather it was only a little area.
Could you please send me a copy of the death information you found for Helen.
Thanks again, regards Karen
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Hi Karen
The info re possible death for Helen came from general searches on Scotlands People, the official pay to view BMD/Census images site. I haven't looked at the image to confirm.
It's always easier to look for wives as you can search by both maiden and married surnames to narrow down the results. Given Helen's death potentially shows in Forgandenny, there's also a likely entry entry for Robert, same year of 1866 also in Forgandenny. Might be worth you checking these out.
Monica :)
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Here's an odd possibility for you Karen...not verified...just something to follow up on perhaps.
On the 1871 census in England, there is this entry in Conington, Huntingdonshire,RG10; Piece: 1524; Folio: 20; Page: 10; :
John Reid 53, farm bailiff, b. Scotland
Sarah Reid 55, b. Liverpool
Elen A(gnes) Reid 25 b. Upton, Huntingdonshire
Robert Reid 23 b. Upton, Huntingdonshire
William Reid 19 b. Conington, Huntingdonshire
Susan Gooder 22, servant
Wondered whether this could be James' brother born 1816. I can see this family from 1851 -71 but not easily after this year.
Monica
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Hi Monica, thankyou so much, this is all really helpful, shall look into it. Interesting information re/ John Reid . regards Karen
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Hi Monica, Thankyou so much once again. I went to the Scotalnds People website, joined, and downloaded the two death certificates. They were definately my James's parents as it stated on Roberts certificate that his son was James Reid, of Heybridge Stafforshire. ( I am certain that was my James!!!). (No mention of Robert being a bailliff though!!, only a shepherd!!and farmer)
Now I need to look into this John you mentioned as bailliff, & see if he was in fact Robert and Helens son.. Isn't it interesting that James stated his father was a bailliff and called his first son John Robert!!! Maybe he was embarressed that his dad was only a shepherd, or/ maybe john was his father (unwed), and his grandparents brought him up!!!???
more research to do by the looks of things.
thanks again, regards Karen
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Hi Karen
That is a fantastic and well deserved result for you :D Was James the informant to his father's death, is that why his details were included?
I would have thought from the records you have that James was Robert and Helen's son, rather than g/parents. You have the OPR birth and christening entries and the Scottish censuses match his birth year of 1834. If he only had one brother, John, may explain why he used the names John Robert for his first son after his father and brother. If Robert and Helen did have more children between John and James, they certainly don't look to have been living by the time of the 1841 census where only the two boys show, matching the OPR births that you have.
Really pleased for you :)
Monica
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Hi Monica, yes , James was the informant, I reckon that was a strike of good luck for me and my research!!! I agree with you regarding John as the only sibling, . It's a mystery why there was such a long gap, maybe Helen kept having misscarraiges or something,
regards Karen
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Hi Karen
There is a "Gateside" just west of Perth, near Tibbermore. This would probably have been counted as Forgandenny. It appears to be a farm on the Old Gallows Road. It still exists on modern OS maps.
There is a picture here: http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/730234
Kirsty
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Hi Kirsty, Thankyou for that. When you say "counted as Forgandenny", what exactly do you mean? Sorry for sounding a bit vague, but I am wondering whether you mean that this "Gateside" is actually in the parish of Forgandenny. Thankyou so much, this is very exciting if this is the actual farm where my Reids lived and died!!! I will look into it Thanks again!!! regards Karen
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Hi Karen
What I meant was that might be the nearest large settlement, although in retrospect that might be Tibbermore. I'm not sure which parish it is in as the map I was looking at does not show parish boundaries. Many parishes in Perthshire had their boundaries altered in the 1890s and some changed to become parts of other counties. It gets a bit confusing at times. The place I found might not have been the residence of your family, it was simply the only nearby place I found with a similar name.
I would normally sugggest looking at the NLS maps section, but they seem to be doing maintenance and the site is down.
Genuki has a lot of information about the parishes.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/PER/boundaries.html
Another very useful site for history of places and maps:
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/gazetteer/
There is another site which shows some parishes though it's a bit minimal.
http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/scotgaz/parishes/parmap570.html
From here:http://www.historystreets.com/image.php?id=208634 it would appear that Gateside has been around since at least the 1750s.
Kirsty
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Hiya
Just a thought: could your farm labourer have worked his way up to being a farm baillie ie a grieve (the worker in charge of the rest of the workers aka foreman)? It's not beyond the realms of possibility that baillie could have been corrupted into bailiff, especially in a Scots/English translation.
Yours
R
Husband is a Scottish farmer and although dieing out these terms are still just about in use.
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Hi again,
Found this on http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/DUMFRIES-GALLOWAY/2001-03/0985907197
"On Scottish farms the farm steward (a manager put in by an absentee farmer) was often known as the Farm Baillie. Judy notes that in England they're known as Farm Bailiffs, which makes me think that at one time the words Bailiff and Baillie were one and the same"
Which is more or less what I said before except the grieve might report to the baillie, or in reallity they could be the same person.
R
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That is brilliant!! I think you may have cracked my Bailliff mystery, thankyou soooo much, I'll look deeper!! I have discovered that this Robert Reid from Forgandenny is absolutely and definately my Ancestor I have been searching for!! Death cert. confirmed it!! Thanks again Rachet