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Independent Islands => Isle of Man => Topic started by: pilates on Saturday 11 July 09 02:57 BST (UK)
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Looking for anyone's prison number from IOM WW1 so I at least
no how many numbers or if there are letters or what it starts
with. Still looking for Jossef Hubertus Pilatus.
thanks.
going to IOPM in Sept!@!!!!
Siri
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Siri I thought we established in your last string that there were 23,000 internees in
Knockaloe camp in WW1& few individual records left unless someone died there. Manx National
Heritage Library has an amazingly good collection of photos of all aspects of camp life &
had a major display a couple of years back. Although the inmates were indeed imprisoned against their will the word prison is never used. Several inexpensive books are available in its shop or locally. A selection of records is apparently available at the National Archives,
in Kew , London but most records were destroyed presumably on Uk gov. orders . These were
after all British Camps , in a convenient offshore island. There are those who suspect mountains of paper were tipped down disused mineshafts. As there is no complete list left here
it is impossible to prove Pilates was here. However if he said he was here you will be able to
build up a very clear idea of his life. You may be able to see him in a Gymn photo---no names
kitted out smartly as in civilian life.KNOCKALOE farm outside Peel is easily accessible & the campsite fields are still there.You may be able to access the site as it is the Dept of Agriculture
Headquarters & sometimes open to the public. Voirrey
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Thank you for your lengthy reply. I do know all that.
However, after researching in England, there are records of when and where
people were arrested(by the way the camps were first called 'concentration
camps'
I have proof from International Red Cross that he was there.
I have many, if not all the books, and a trip planned to IOM in September,
that is way exciting, as is this chatpage.
I am just looking for anyone's number to know what it begins with,or how
many numbers in one, or are there letters. It is like Cold Case(a show here
in the USA).
I dont think I would recognize a picture of him.
I am impressed by how well everyone was dressed.
I do have James Baily, the Quaker who taught the prisoners how to build
furniture, book. He got all his photos from the Manx Heritage museum.
My story is some committed suicide, many got barbed wire disease,
and some became enlightened. Pilates developed his method of
physical and mental conditioning there, he says he worked out a thousand
men and worked in the hospital.
thank you for you reply.
siri
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Siri I do have somwhere a list of all the deaths in the Knockaloe Camp [ having read all the death certs]
I think there were almost 200 over the years & surprisingly internees & staff deaths are AT Knockaloe because
even the soldiers' hospital was within the campus. It is interesting to note all internees deaths were followed by
a post mortem by a civilian doctor to avoid any cover up of mishaps. Just as many soldiers died , they were
often elderly & surprisingly were just as prone to depression & suicide as the others. Again it is the same for
manslaughter/murder---just a few cases perhaps people getting on each other's nerves confined together. Many died
from exactly the same diseases as those outside the wire TB or flu etc.
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Pilates didnt die in camp though.
I have the British records too. most people were in the hospital for
TB or venereal diseases.
I am wondering since the hospitals were otside the wire, if the
Manx soldiers returning from war didnt go there too.
Have a fabulous book called 150 years of Manx Murders,
gives great cultural descriptions. just looking for the feel of the island
and island people and cant wait to hear their accents.
Interested in spring mattresses, as they say that;s where Pilates
got the idea to use springs as resistance for hospital patients on IOM;
lots of rumors and myths.
Loving the IOM, been collecting things like an obsessed idiot.
What a fascinating place, magic, and with an undercurrent of
mystery. Today they say it is a bigger place than the Cayman islands
to hide money.
so IOM owed Britain for the war and they just took over the island
as a prison. wow.
thank you for your response.
Siri Galliano
Big Bear , California
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The IOM is a British Crown Dependency---not part of UK---rather like a colony but someone will be complaining
about the use of that word.We do have a great deal of indepence---own parliament Tynwald from Viking times.
Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth has to sign all new laws.
NO as I explained both hospitals were in the camp that is why all certs say" died at Knockaloe." No Manx soldiers
returning home went there. All of the English staff would be too old or unfit for active service. Sadly one of the suicides was the young camp doctor who used his pistol.
As for accents well you will hear plenty but over half of us are new arrivals from the UK ,Ireland & foreign parts.
The Manx Government were happy to accept internees & prisoners of war because few tourists were coming & hotels
empty. People needed support. For example in WW2 when hotels were used as camps ,guards lodged nearby--I can see
such houses as I write.Obviously they didn't pay as well as tourists but you didn't go bankrupt.
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There is an autobiography, Time Stood Still, written by a German artist
interred in England, and then Douglas. Having no paints he became a writer
and wrote his experience and described the physical conditions. once when he
had to go to the hospital he describes being escorted out the barbed wire.
If you had a little money, the hospital was a good place to be, more food.
I read a history book on the IOM and they just never mentioned the war
or the camps. do you think they are embarassed, horrified, in denial,
dont care?
SDG
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several accounts are online linked to http://www.manxnotebook.com/famhist/genealgy/intern.htm - including time stood still.
Not sure what history book you are referring to - there is no denial or hiding - there is a plaque on the wall at what is left of Knockaloe - the camp huts were sold post WW1 - WW2 accomodation returned to housing holidaymakers - naturally the barbed wire fences were removed!. The majority of graves at Kirk Patrick were removed in the 1960's to the main UK cemetary for POWs etc.
The Manx Museum has a active policy of acquiring any first hand accounts of camp life and is probably the best place to start research
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Thank you for your kind reply.
I bought a book published in the '40's on the History of the Isle of Man
and no mention was made of WW1 or the camps in it. I found that interesting, that's all.
Apparantly, only in the 1990's was any light shed back on the subject of
Britain's rascism and immigration policies.
It is a huge topic, and trying to understand it from California!!!!!
yours,
Siri Galliano
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I suspect the history book was the slim two volume paperbacks designed mainly for schoolchildren - the WW1 camps had little lasting impact on the Island which probably lost more men/head of population in WW1 than almost anywhere else in the British Isles. I'm not sure quite what UK immigration policy had to do with internment of aliens during WW1 & 2 but maybe the same reasons the US interned americans of Japanese descent during WW2?
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Hello,
I have a photo of my husband's grandfather, Josef Brunneder, who was a German Sea Captain who was captured and detained at the Isle of Man during WWI. You can actually see the barbed wire fences in the background. One of the men is in Tyrol garb, granddad in a vest with his watch and fob. We have the watch and fob. All are sporting large mustaches. They look well fed, healthy and fit.
There are three men, one was the cook and another a friend. The friend has a brick at his feet and the brick is numbered 3333. The information on the photo for Josef Brunneder b. February 3, 1870 d. January 3, 1973 Munich Germany is No 360 Compound 5 Hut II R Peel Isle of Man
He sent home several carved vases made from large beef bones that are truly works of art. He made his own carving tools from Tan Can Lids. The vases depict his daughters in fancy garb walking on cobble stones. One vase has Isle of Man carved into it and bunnies in a basket so it must have been sent home for Easter. The other vase has a man with a plummed hat very much like a Mustketeer.
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Sorry, correction Joseph Brunneder No. 3660 Compound 5 Hut IIR Peel Isle of Man
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Hello
I have ancestors who were interned in Isle of Man during w.w.1
Have looked in the manx museum but they have no names on any photos. But there are good books to be read.
My German ancestors were living in England and Ireland, married to English and Irish wives. All were sent back to Germany after the war and many returned back again to u.k. and Ireland.
One brother born in Germany was interned in Isle of Man while his brother who was born in U.K. was interned in Germany!
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The immediate postwar period was somewhat vindictive (maybe understandable given the number of deaths on both sides) especially stoked by some of what would now be described as the tabloid press - the novel by Hall Caine "Woman of Knockaloe" - http://www.manxnotebook.com/fulltext/hcwk1923/index.htm though fictional was written by a novelist who had been involved in war time propaganda and who also lived probably within sight of the camp shows some of these feelings