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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Mr Jules on Friday 10 July 09 19:26 BST (UK)
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Here are 3 butchers. A date would help me identify them - check out the 'tache on the right (!)
Many thanks as always
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Hi Mr Jules,
What a lovely picture! I shall watch with interest to see what the experts make of that!
Rabbit B ;D
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Are they Russians? The instrument looks like a balalaika ???
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Well there's not much here that's dateable but I would suggest not
earlier than about 1910 but could be in the 1920's.
jim
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I think that thing is a dombura. From Uzbekistan. That could explain the lip caterpillar, anyway ;D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dombra
Cheers,
China
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Of course silly me ;D
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I think that thing is a dombura. From Uzbekistan. That could explain the lip caterpillar, anyway ;D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dombra
Cheers,
China
Hi China,
I will go along with that do you think that is snow or sawdust they are standing on?? It looks a bit like like a dusting of snow to me! :-\ It cannot be snow ??? on second thoughts, I cannot see any behind the picket fence!
Why have butchers got a musical instrument ??? I know Mr Jules says they are butchers, but despite the steel and the smallish knife, it doesn't look like a proper shop or abattoir? Not clean enough!
I am cleaning the picture up now, have a look at the window on the left it is boarded over! And there seems to be a board missing?
That has to be around 1910 ish doesn't it Jim. When were they wearing rounded collars like that! Not as late as the 20's I think. ???
Rabbit B ;D
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I would have said it was snow, and is the middle man holding an axe with the blade towards the camera. Clearly all dressed up for the photo, with freshly washed & ironed aprons (starched as well?). A butcher's shop trio? (well if you can have barber's shop quartets ...) Would high, stiff collars like that still be being worn in the 1920s?
Robert
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Why have butchers got a musical instrument ??? I know Mr Jules says they are butchers, but despite the steel and the smallish knife, it doesn't look like a proper shop or abattoir? Not clean enough!
Well, I come from 4 generations of butchers going back to 18th Century - when I received this scan from a distant relative it was titled 'unknown butchers' so I just naturally assumed...
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A clean
Irene
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Looks like snow, and it continues into the building through the doorway. There doesn't seem to be a door. I don't think it's a working building....
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Agree with China,I don't think this is a working building either,
the snow is still heavy around the doorway which would indicate
it's unused.I thought this might be into the 20's as the chap in
the centre seems to have a pin through his collar which I believe
was a fashion starting around WW1 & was worn well into the 20's.
As Robbo pointed out they were properly booted & suited prior to
this being taken so these are not working clothes,so nothing to
indicate they're butchers,look more like barbers to me.
jim
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Looks like snow, and it continues into the building through the doorway. There doesn't seem to be a door. I don't think it's a working building....
Hi China,
I agree it looks like snow, but look behind that picket fence! No snow there!
I cannot think why a Barber would use a steel Jim, and that knife wouldn't shave anyone! A cut-throat and strop would be better if they were barbers! 8)
That building is not conducive to either trade is it? Butchery at a pinch is the better option, but that doesn't explain the musical instrument!
Rabbit B ;D
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When I was cleaning it I got the impression it was all "staged" as the whole thing had a studio kind of feeling. It was kind of like a movie set with just the facade of a building. Just my opinion
Irene
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Hi everyone,
I'm having a go at this and I am a complete novice so be please be kind to me if......... and it's a big 'if' I post what will be my first effort ;D ;D.
I agree with Niksmum that it looks staged - that picket fence and the tree look like a painted backdrop.
Maggie
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Hi Maggie,
Welcome to the learners, I still have my L plates up!
Now folks, while I have been playing with my feeble effort, I would like to say that I think that this is a 'stage set' The chap on the right has a wonkey 'tash', the chap on the left with the cigarette in his mouth, has a bread knife and a meat fork in one hand. The chap in the middle has either a broom or some sort of ski stick he also looks as if he has a rubber glove on his right hand.
The whole of the front of this building looks like materiel when blown up to 400. and I think that background tree and fence have been painted on some sort of cloth!
My OH suggested that it might be a musical production of 'Sweeny Todd' we couldn't think of anything else with butchers or barbers in!
Rabbit B ;D
PS so busy trying to get this right I had not noticed that others are thinking the same thing! Oh well, 'Great minds think alike' and all that! ;)
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Here is my sepia effort! :-\
Rabbit B :)
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Well done Rabbit and you don't look like a learner to me :D
I like the sepia. I have just made a ghastly error on mine and obliterated the left hand guy's cigarette - I thought it was a mark on the photo. I have constructed a new one for him though :o
Maggie
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Just some thoughts...
I don't think that's a picket fence on the left, it's solid. It's quite like hockey rink boards, if you've ever seen those...they're a solid sheet of wood reinforced with vertical boards up the back.
The guy on the left has a carving fork, and I think a carving knife...it's not necessarily a bread knife, I've seen carving knives shaped like that...
The middle guy has one sleeve rolled up, I think that's why it looks like he's wearing a glove, but his arm is in shadow so that might be it.
The guy on the right is wearing an apron that's brand new, still got the creases from being folded at the factory. In fact all of them are in spotless pristine white aprons, and if this is 1920s you wouldn't be able to get butcher stains out of white cloth, even by boiling because heat sets blood and it wasn't until (I think) enzyme detergents were invented that you could do a decent job on bloodstains. So, I don't think they're real butchers either :)
I do think it's a real building...that's tarpaper on the outside and was common as an outer weatherproofing finish on buildings that weren't intended to be looked at, such as sheds and shacks etc. Some people lived in tarpaper shacks in pioneering and depression days...it was an economical way to build. SO...I think it's a real building, but hasn't had much maintenance done on it.
Still a great photo! :)
Cheers,
China
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In fact all three of them are wearing brand new aprons, still in their creases. The shadows make details hard to see.
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Great photo..... it has a theatrical feel to it....I think the three guys are a singing trio..but I could be wrong.
Nice work Rabbit :D
Carol
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Is there any idea where this photo was taken? I am just wondering if it could be a concert party for troops somewhere - or rather I'm desperately trying to find an idea as to how all the odd elements could be fitted together
Robert
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Here's mine :).
Maggie
(Added later - this is a lightened version of one posted earlier)
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Well done Rabbit and you don't look like a learner to me :D
I like the sepia. I have just made a ghastly error on mine and obliterated the left hand guy's cigarette - I thought it was a mark on the photo. I have constructed a new one for him though :o
Maggie
Trust me Maggie I am very much so, if you look at the beautiful work that Irene and Carol have done you will see why! So much to learn!
I do so agree Carol, [thanks for your kind words] it certainly has a theatrical feel to it, I suppose it could be a concert part from troops stationed somewhere, in which case it could be any day in WW2 and the costumes could be made up. Those collars do look a bit fake to me!
I remember them well. The separate ones I mean! I can hear heavy artillery fire from where I am sitting the TA at it again!
Rabbit B ;D
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Here's mine :).
Maggie
Hi Maggie,
What a brilliant job you have done on this! That collar on the right hand man looks even more like celluloid!
Very well done, I like yours very much and thank you for the kind comments re mine!
I have made a hash of some of it I can see that now! But 'nil desperandum', we learn by experience don't we!
Look what a very high standard we have to live up to, it's quite daunting to say the least!
Rabbit B ;D
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Just some thoughts...
The guy on the right is wearing an apron that's brand new, still got the creases from being folded at the factory. In fact all of them are in spotless pristine white aprons, and if this is 1920s you wouldn't be able to get butcher stains out of white cloth, even by boiling because heat sets blood and it wasn't until (I think) enzyme detergents were invented that you could do a decent job on bloodstains. So, I don't think they're real butchers either :)
Cheers,
China
Hi China,
So sorry to disagree but fresh blood can be removed easily, if the cloth is soaked in cold salt water, before boiling in soap suds.
This method was used long before any enzyme powders were invented! However I agree that they are not Butchers!
Rabbit B
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Hi Rabbit :)
Thank you for your kind words and encouragement - I have thoroughly enjoyed doing this. Yes - there are certainly some beautiful restores done by the very talented people here; a high standard to aim for, but like you say........ nil desperandum ;)
Maggie
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Hi Rabbit :)
Thank you for your kind words and encouragement - I have thoroughly enjoyed doing this. Yes - there are certainly some beautiful restores done by the very talented people here; a high standard to aim for, but like you say........ nil desperandum ;)
Maggie
Well Maggie,
You earned that m'dear! Practise makes perfect so they say! I need new eyes though to do it properly!
Keep at it 8)
Rabbit B ;D
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A rather odd coloured sepia one :)
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I dont think the building is likely to be part of a staged set. Why would anyone create a wooden shed with tarpaulin sheets hanging down?
I am very impressed with the restoration work by all that have contributed.
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Hi James,
You would have to blow it up to 400 to be able to see the draped material!
But that is what it is, also the stylised tree and everything beyond the picket fence, has no snow at all. Plus the picket fence looked painted to me.
When the picture is the right size to post, everything looks right, but blown up the collars look wrong for stiff collars, and the implements are not right for the job!
I have done a fair bit of butchery in my time and it would not be possible with those tools.
Rabbit B ;D
PS Maggie what a superb job you have made of both your pictures, and the sepia especially! Are you sure you are only a novice??
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PS Maggie what a superb job you have made of both your pictures, and the sepia especially! Are you sure you are only a novice??
Hi Rabbit,
Thanks again for your welcome help and encouragement. I spent part of last Friday practising on one of my own photos and trying to learn about cloning - this was the first time I had ever tried.
However 'The Butchers' is my first proper effort and my first restore posted on RC ....... honestly!! I hope its not my last but I have a lot to learn.
Maggie
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Welcome aboard Maggie ;D ;D ;D
Carol
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Thanks for the nice welcome, Carol. Lots to learn isn't there? ::)
Maggie
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I'll say...but you will have a lot of fun along the way...and...your laundry and other chores will pile up too ;D ;D ;D
Carol
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Carole - when I was trying to get to sleep last night I was seeing floating black PIXELS when I closed my eyes :o
Maggie
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The fence, which I think is "solid" not "picket", and the tree or whatever look fake - either a backdrop or painted on after - as does the pile of snow against the fence. The foreground snow looks as though it has been chucked there and from deep at left peters out at the right edge. Very theatrical. But if military concert party, necessarily WW2, why not WWI, or the Russian Campaign or any one of those scrubby little actions that were never called wars?
Robert
And well done Maggie, good work and you had the courage to do it, which I don't have.
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The fence, which I think is "solid" not "picket", and the tree or whatever look fake - either a backdrop or painted on after - as does the pile of snow against the fence. The foreground snow looks as though it has been chucked there and from deep at left peters out at the right edge. Very theatrical. But if military concert party, necessarily WW2, why not WWI, or the Russian Campaign or any one of those scrubby little actions that were never called wars?
Robert
And well done Maggie, good work and you had the courage to do it, which I don't have.
Hi Robert,
I am sure that your eyes are so much better then mine! But it looked to me like a painted backdrop of a picket fence on material!
Now what is all this about you not having courage, what ever you do cannot be worse than mine can it! Have a go. So make a fool of yourself, everyone starts somewhere! ;D
I only wish I was as good as the others, but alas that will never happen! For me! You give in too easily! :-* Give it a go!
Some of us have to be on the bottom, to make the others look good! ::)
You are right about Maggie, she is going to be really good among the tops I would say. 8)
Rabbit B ;D
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Hi Robert,
Thanks for your nice words. I really enjoyed doing it so why don't you have a go?
Hi Rabbit,
That's a lot to live up to! I think it will be a slow learning curve - so far I can only clone in black & white :-\ :-\
Maggie :)
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What a fascinating photo and what good restores.
Well done Rabbit, you're getting good.
Maggie, welcome and very well done. Keep going.
So what can I see in the picture...so many contradictions it's unbelievable....
Butchers? Nah, wrong implements.
Grocers? could be...
Why the musical instrument though?
Got to be a musical trio, it's been said, like a Barber's Quartet.
Perhaps they wanted their photo taken and the light was bad indoors so they went out into the cold cold snow....
The barn looks very real, the snow looks slushy, the fence looks like a barrier fence not a picket.
OK so they went out into the cold slushy snow to have their photo taken...problem solved...no it isn't because the light is very bright and by the shadows seems to be coming from fairly low down...now that ain'nt right.
If it's theatrical the clothes could have come out of the dressing up box so they won't help with a date. Hairstyles might...and I don't mean the wonky catapiller the bloke has under his nose.
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Hi Paula,
Excellent as always, not really sure what you are trying to say about it though? Thanks for the very undeserved compliment by the way, I appreciate that. :-[
But are you in the realms of the theatrical? I am not sure!
That is a false tash if ever I saw one!
Rabbit B ;D
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Hi Rabbit,
Yup, I'm going for the theatrical, including the mustdash..ooops sorry moustache...
But I think the barn looks too darned good to be a stage set...
So my guess is a singing trio who went outside to have their photy took.
The only thing that worries me about that idea is the angle of the light, it seems too low for natural.
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...oh....and the chap on the left looks as though he has his trousers tucked in his socks, probably didn't want them to get snow on them and get wet like the others...
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Thanks for the welcome and the encouraging words, Paula - much appreciated :D.
Rabbit - Paula's compliment is certainly deserved, you are very hard on yourself.
To add my two pennarth into the discussion and having been closely involved with the pic for most of yesterday, I think its theatrical and that fence is solid but not real. The lighting is odd and as has been said before the aprons are brand new, fresh out of the packets and still creased. Whatever it is that they are up to I think they are enjoying themselves.
Maggie
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Oooh Paula,
I envy you your wonderful eyes!
Thank you for that kind explanation!
Our point of disagreement is that building, to me it is a stage set to you it is real!
Thanks for the clarification! Will be thinking straight I hope in the morning!
Rabbit B ;D
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It's a real building...there were buildings like that in pioneering times. Through the window on the right, you can see another window. The second window would be on the side of the building.
There's some hanging stuff visible through the window too, inside the building.
Here's a lovely sod house, and a bit further down a tar paper shack.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/06p2/
Here's another, and this one was photographed in 1938.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/06p3/
And another...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/06p4/
The snow looks natural to me. When you "chuck" snow, it looks like it was chucked there. This looks like there has been some attempt at clearing it a bit, and all three men have snow on their shoes.
Cheers,
China
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Well, what can I say?
Some tremendous restoration work as always. - Maggie you've done a fantastic job - well done! Paula Too - That's a really beautiful colour job, just perfect.
As for the various stabs at what, where and why. These are my thoughts...although I must say that you've all really got me wondering as whether you might be onto something.
I think the building and setting just has to be real. I've always thought it was an outhouse of some sort. I agree that there are some strange looking inconsistencies, and the lighting is a little weird, (I'm no expert, but I think it may have been taken late afternoon or early morning). The fence/bush area is strange, but the more I look at it, the more I think that that 'bush' may actually be a stain, blemish, or something else entirely.
As for whether they are butchers or not, I really think we don't have enough to go on to make a decision one way or another. The instrument is a very strange addition. I must confess that I originally thought it was a shovel! The various knives could easily be used by a butcher, or a chef or anyone else that needed to cut something, so no real clues there. Remember that a hundred years ago there wasn't the huge range of implements available to all and sundry that there is now. All I know is that my Great grandfather back to my GGG Grandfather where all butchers - and I don't eat meat! I've been in contact with the Worshipful Company of butchers to see if they can help - but no reply yet.
I'm going to see if I can be sent a scan of the back to see if that helps -
A massive thanks once again to you all - this picture seems to have caused quite a lot of interest, which is after all what the whole genealogy game is about - picking the wheat from the chaff.
Jules
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Hi all,
what a great pic! Hasn't anyone noticed the horses's head in the right hand "window" ?? That puts a whole new slant on it!!
::)
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Blimey!!!
Also, are we absolutely sure about the date? I thought it may be a little earlier.
Jules
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Oh my goodnesss, I think parkywinter is right, there COULD be a horse's head !! It's looking out of through China's side window, or perhaps it's a stable door with the top half open. It's ear slightly bent towards the camera presumably listening to the action outside. After yet another look at the 'tree' and I think I agree with Jules that it might be a stain - on magnification the tree trunk looks wrong.
Jules - thanks for your kind words and also for posting this picture as it has certainly got me going on restoration!!
Maggie
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Brilliant picture, brilliant thread, Jules, happy to have been a part of it.
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Fascinating, picture and thread. Not sure about the horses head though, looks like a sack that has been hung across the window to me.
Robert
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Hi Folks,
It was fun while it lasted! Thanks for posting this fascinating picture Jules, As Paula says, happy to be a part of it ;)
Rabbit B ;D
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I'm not sure if it's already been mentioned but it looks like the chappie on the right hand side also has something in his hand. If you look at the shadow of his hand on the apron of the man in the middle, it looks like he is holding something......another knife perhaps?!!!
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Mr Jules - nice photo!