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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: DNA on Sunday 05 July 09 02:12 BST (UK)

Title: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: DNA on Sunday 05 July 09 02:12 BST (UK)
I posted a query quite some time ago and received a clue that did lead on.Since then I have got the following.
The favourite gran was  Constance Purkis ,father William Purkis -traveller
,mother Minna Taverner .At Constance's birth (which was registered) they wre lodging in 29 Argyle Street,Grays Inn London Sept 1882 but long gone by the time of the 1891 Census and the 1881 Census records for that part of Argyle Street destroyed by fire!!
The other "mystery" is that Constance was brought up by an Ann Rintoul of Leigh Street London and when she did marry she gave her fathers name as Edward.
I would have hoped to at least traced the William/Minna marriage but nothing to date.
My thanks to the two people who helped before.Anyone else able to help?
Being on dial up connection in New Zealand limits searches quite a bit!!
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: Steve G on Sunday 05 July 09 13:56 BST (UK)
 :( No luck, I'm afraid, DNA. I've just run a search on " M / Minna Taverna X Purkis, London, 1881 +/- 2 years ". No sign of her.

 Only thing that caught my eye was, under Marriages:

Name:     Emma Mary Taverner
Year of Registration:    1880
Quarter of Registration:    Jul-Aug-Sep
District:    Wandsworth
County:    Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume:    1d
Page:    959

 And that simply because I've never heard of " Minna " before and wondered if it could be a nick name created out of the above. Which I doubt!

 Have ye considered the trusty finger tip search of the actual GRO pages, at FindMyPast? I often do that, if A.com blows out. My own connection's lousy too, so I appreciate what ye up against there.
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: Steve G on Monday 06 July 09 11:59 BST (UK)
 :-\ Ok, DNA. Following ye clue that we're dealing with a 'Wilhemina' Taverna here, I've just run a search on the first 100, births 1837 onwards. Not a single Wilhemina  amongst them.

 But, This one stuck out like a punch in the mouth:

Name:     Mellona W Taverner
Year of Registration:    1866
Quarter of Registration:    Jan-Feb-Mar
District:    St Thomas
County:    Devon
Volume:    5b
Page:    65


 I mean, what sort of name is " Mellona "? And what's the W stand for ....? As I remember 'The Pelvis singing: " Suspicion! "

 Melons would have been sixteen, at the time of the birth. Perfectly acceptable in those days, of course. But, what's more, there's a whole load of Taverners in Devon. And I spotted a couple more with names that made the eyebrows rise. Jabez and Elizabeth *Ryphina, eg. Put a gun to my head and I'd stake that these are indeed very much the sort of names we'd expect among Gypsys of that period.

 Nothing yet proven, of course. But might it be a pointer? Could our girl have come from Devon Gypsy stock?

 I don't know about you, but I'd have to chance £7.00 on Mellona. Just to see what that W's all about  8)
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: jaytoot on Monday 06 July 09 13:52 BST (UK)
Hi Steve,

i noticed on free bmd

marriage Cardiff 1891

Tavender    Melona Williams to either
Elliott    Thomas        
Hall    Edward Charles   

Then
Death - 1899 age 33 Parish of St Martin Devon.
Melona Williams Hall

Regards,

Jim
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: Steve G on Monday 06 July 09 14:11 BST (UK)
 :D Oh, smooth work, JayToot! Bravo! That's a cracker!

Like, ok; It, unfortunately blows my own little nest egg out of the water, doesn't it? But it saves DNA a wasted few quid and frees us all up to ..... well, to what? Start all over again, I s'pose!  ::) Bugger! Never mind.

 Tell ye what though? Cardiff back down to Devon? Certainly seems like our Mellona got about a bit, doesn't it? I wonder then if my suspicions about her were at least partially right?

 Still a hell of a name, isn't it?
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: Steve G on Monday 06 July 09 14:19 BST (UK)
 ??? No; Hang about! (Sorry; All hell letting loose here. Dogs jumping all over me and all sorts. Can hardly think straight) That Does fit our girl, doesn't it?

In fact, HALL is a listed Gypsy name ..... Someone think for me here, please?

 Could she have married twice or something? I'm just too scrambled to make the connection here. It's this Edward .....
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: jaytoot on Monday 06 July 09 14:57 BST (UK)
This one is tricky.
I searched the 1911 census and it doesn't show Constance Pell at all.

Where was she living after she married?
What were her childrens names?
Also, who were the witnesess at the wedding?

Sometimes witnesess are relatives or later marry a relative.
Childrens names are sometimes family names re used though not always.

DNA if you can give us these other bits of info it might help.

Jim

Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: Steve G on Monday 06 July 09 15:39 BST (UK)
Ok, Jim. Dogs are under control now. I've calmed down and got back to my more usual frame of mind here.

 First off, I've tided up DNA's rather gushing, and thus distracting, inital in put. Then I've worked it over with what else we have thus far. See what ye think of this:


William Purkis X Wilahmina Taverna = Constance Purkis @ 1882.

Constance, brought up by a stranger, later claims " Edward x " as Father.


Hypothesis; " Wilahmina " is Mellona W, born 1866. She marries Edward Hall, 1891, her age then being 25. Drops dead in 1899, age 33.

Could Mellona have first married Bill Purkis and had Constance in 1882? Answer; Yes. She'd have been sixteen years old.

Then what happens? Mellona and Bill Purkis split up? He dies? (Have we a dead Bill, 1882 - 1891?) Either way, the marriage appears ended by 1891. Equally 'either way', we have the potential of Constance, nine years old, having an Edward as Father figure.

 Maybe Constance never got to know Bill Purkis at all? Maybe that was a shotgun wedding and he vanished, leaving young Mellona to drop off her kid with an aunt (Ann Rintoul) and, on marrying herself, gave, as Father, the name of the only man she ever knew in that role.


 What ye reckon?
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: Steve G on Monday 06 July 09 16:07 BST (UK)

Then what happens? Mellona and Bill Purkis split up? He dies? (Have we a dead Bill, 1882 - 1891?) Either way, the marriage appears ended by 1891.



Name:     William Perkis
Estimated Birth Year:    abt 1831
Year of Registration:    1891
Quarter of Registration:    Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death:    60
District:    St Olave Southwark (1837-1901)
County:    London, Surrey
Volume:    1d
Page:    133


 8)
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: katherinem on Monday 06 July 09 16:40 BST (UK)
Here is Constance in 1891 and 1901:

1891 (RG12/122, Folio 26, Page 46)
3 Leigh St, Pancras
Ann            Rintoul, Head, M, 57, Newsagent,  Birth place Mile End, London
Constance E  "    , Daughter, S, 8, Scholar       Birth place St Pancras
+2 Servants

1901 (RG13/139, Folio 13, Page 20)
3 Leigh St, Grays Inn, Pancras
Ann            Rintoul, Head, Wid, 66, Newsagent, London Mile End
Henry        Miller, Brother, S, 76, Newsagent Asst     "         "
Constance Rintoul, Daughter, S, 18    "           "   St Pancras
+ servant

Kath
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: DNA on Tuesday 07 July 09 06:57 BST (UK)
You are all absolutely wonderful (notice Steve I avoided fabulous to not disturb your sensitive Irish mind)
Constance Pell nee Purkis most definitely did wed Frederick Pell in 1905  I have a copy of the marriage cert.Mrs Rintoul was a witness.Constances first child was called Edna Marion with the youngest of Mrs Rintoul's daughters being a Marion I guess Constance had some affection for her.Edna Marion was born 20 May 1906 and another daughter Hilda 1908.Here the plot thickens for Frederick seems to have done a runner or died as it "seems " Constance had to go into domestic service .My wife's family just never discussed how she managed,
I will await your invaluable input.
Many thanks
DNA
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: Steve G on Tuesday 07 July 09 13:10 BST (UK)
 Things will get a lot harder, now that we've crossed the 1901 line, DNA. All that's really left now is the 1911 Census. And that costs an arm and a leg to look at ~ and I find it extremely temperamental yet too.

 However, if we side step that route for a moment, we could try the two daughters of Pell there. One imagines they'd grow up and marry? Thus, of course, their own Marriage Certificates might hold a clue as to what their Dad's up to at that point. Could say " Deceased " and that would give us a certified link back.

 First bug bear is this:


Name:     Edna M Pell
Spouse Surname:    Power
Date of Registration:    Apr-May-Jun 1947
Registration district:    Fulham
Registration county (inferred):    London
Volume Number:    5c
Page Number:    1503


 Born a London girl, one automatically leans toward a 'local' marriage. But, 1947? Good lord; That'd make her 39 yo! Why so late? Was she That much of a moose?! Just doesn't sit well with me.


Name:     Edna M Pell
Spouse Surname:    Sims
Date of Registration:    Apr-May-Jun 1931
Registration district:    Greenwich
Registration county (inferred):    Kent
Volume Number:    1d
Page Number:    1921


 That one I Like! Slight shift to the east, look. And she's a young and very marriagable 23 yo. I like this one a whole lot more. And, can't ye see the diamond in there? She's met up with a Mr Sims! That's another Gypsy name!

 Now, if we accept that Melons was quite possibly of West Country Gypsy stock, then Edna here is half blood herself. And, in my experience, the blood finds the blood, however unconsciously. Maybe Edna was brought up on tales of how her mum was a Gypsy and had herself married one? Things like that can influence a mind.

 Once again, before any hard liners pop up and accuse us of doing this all wrong, picking our choices and trying to make the nicest bits fit; Yeppers. I, for one am. But I'm only working with what we have and what presents itself. It's down to DNA to get the hard evidence to prove or otherwise this conjecture. And I can't help it if the most likely fitting record out there just happens to throw us yet another Gypsy clue  ;)

 Fun though, isn't it? Not sure what's worse, myself. This rather 'unprofessional' way of going about all this. Or the quite amazing level of 'coincidence'. Bloody Gypsys everywhere we look!  ;D

Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: jaytoot on Tuesday 07 July 09 13:30 BST (UK)
Couldn't resist the 1911 census

Constance is in Letchworth the House is in the name of Frank Thomas Simpkin and Wife Celia plus children and a boarder

there is a line across the centre of the page
then it shows
~~~~~~~~-------------
Herbert Dobbs - bricklayer age 27

Ann Rintoul 78 visitor
Connie Pell age 27 visitor
Edna Pell age 4 visitor

It says Ann and Connie are living by private means. Both of them are shown as married. Ann states she has had 3 children and one has died.

Where is the other child?

Regards,
Jim

Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: Steve G on Tuesday 07 July 09 13:41 BST (UK)
 ;D Ye belter, Jim!

Now; Where's Letchworth? I can't remember, off hand. Wonder if that gives us any further clues as to family movements?

 Anyway, I have to get off now. I'll be back this evening. I'll try to absorb what we have a bit better then.
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: DNA on Wednesday 08 July 09 00:09 BST (UK)
Thank you Steve G and jaytoot. I can add stuff I should have included before.
My wife's mum was Edna.Marion and dad,of course ,Eric William Sims.
Finding Constance in 1911 back with Mrs Rintoul was something my wife and I had talked about as a real possibility if Fred Pell was deceased or just "gone".Then the 1911 reference to 'living by private means".There was always this "story" of Constance being in the service of some wealthy guy who left her property and the odd valuable or three(like the silver my wife got from her nan
Constance which we still have).
This takes us to the Pells.On the marriage cert Frederick Alfred's father is given as
"Gentleman" Caleb Pell.When I traced the Pells in 1901 Caleb/Charles was still a coachman employed at Warberry Court Ditton Devon,just one of 10 servants so even if his employer popped his clogs and left some dough to Caleb it wouldn't have been enough to buy off Constance and get young Fred off the hook.All very strange and probably now impossible to resolve.
There were two other witnesses to the marriage who are interesting
Marion Newman (nee Rintoul no doubt)
Geo de Sylla Zuclo ?
I did discover Geo had a telephone in 1901 so he must have been solid upper middle class or striving business man.
 Constance at about 16 or 17 was actually a young lady gymnast and spoke to my wife of the training they had to do and the only surviving photo is of her in tunic and tights with a skipping rope in hand....very daring for the times.
After all the efforts the least I can do is to try and scan the photo and send as a contribution to the lovely side bar illustrations you have.
So,the real mystery of William Pell and Wilhemina Taverner will probably remain
just that but maybe Fred and Caleb will appear somewhere.
Eric Sims,by the way,has his roots in Gayhurst Bucks and a long line of Ag Labs

Very many thanks again. the detective work aspect is gripping stuff
DNA
       
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: Steve G on Wednesday 08 July 09 00:48 BST (UK)
 Hyah, DNA. I'm still up and about ~ though I'm in amongst the Jameson now, so don't expect too much sense out of me tonight!  ;D

 As part of my own evenings digging though, I came across Edna's birth records (Of course, ye have that covered so I didn't bother any more with it).

 Now though ye bring us yet more tantalising snippets ....? Ye certainly know how to present the gauntlet, don't ye?! Besides which, this is just such a potentially juicy story, isn't it? What starts off as, apparently, a young girl who runs off with a Gypsy. Then ends up graciously showered with favours from a Gentleman? Stuff of  those novels my old mum used to like!

 One thing to hang onto here, mate; New material's being made available all the time. And there's always one more stone, and a steady stream of willing stone turners. Give it a rest, by all means. But Always come back for another stab. Some of my own stuff has taken years and yet has surfaced only in the last few days! I find it because I keep coming back for another try ~ and thus discover newly exposed sources.

 Anyway, like I say; I'm 'Relaxing' somewhat just now. I'll look again when I'm fresher. This has me hooked!

 Photographs of athletic young women, in tights and with skipping ropes?!  :o MATRON!!! Ye sure know how to keep the troops morale up, eh?  ;D

 Now I'm off ~ Before they chuck me out! LMAO!
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: jaytoot on Wednesday 08 July 09 11:31 BST (UK)
Hi DNA - very interesting background information.

I cannot see Caleb in the 1911 census though freebmd records his death in chelsea in 1934 age 79, so where is he after 1891?

I forgot to mention that on the 1911 census James Henry Rintoul is alive and well.
He is living in bloomsbury age 71,  he has written his date of birth down as March 26, mariatal status Single.
He has a servant called Annie Willy, she is 34 years old.
Under profesion he says Independant.
Now where has he been since 1861?

If Constance was a gymnast does that mean she was a performer in theatre?
Was the mysterious sounding Geo de Sylla Zuclo an agent or theatre owner?

One thing I am not sure about is that when Constance was born, her father is listed as a Traveller. I have very limited knowledge but would someone from the Roma/Gypsy community have been recorded as a Traveller? Perhaps it means travelling salesman?
Has anyone who traced their Roma/Gypsy roots seen the ancestors recorded this way.

Steve G is right it sounds like a novel!

Regards,

Jim

Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: katherinem on Wednesday 08 July 09 16:53 BST (UK)
Marion Newman (nee Rintoul no doubt)
Geo de Sylla Zuclo ?
I did discover Geo had a telephone in 1901 so he must have been solid upper middle class or striving business man.
 

There was a marriage between William Newman and Marion de Sylla Zucco in the reg dist of Dover in 1896 - wonder if this could be Marion Newman witness!

There is a medal card for a Hon Lt George Desylli Zucco serving with the 7th Bn, W York Regt, it has an address of 44 Springfield Rd, NW8 on it.  On the london gazette website; which is www.london-gazette.co.uk, he is listed as George De Sylla Zucco.

Also if you type Zucco on the london gazette website, there is a lot of info (bankruptcy in 1875 and 1880) about a Nicholas De Sylla Zucco; whom died intestate on the 13 October 1910, could this be where the money came from?  Nicholas is on the 1891 as a General Merchant and 1901 census as a Tobacco Merchant, he was born 1830 in Corfu, Greece.  It might well be worth spending £5 to get a copy of the probate.

Kath
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: jaytoot on Wednesday 08 July 09 19:40 BST (UK)
Brilliant find Kath.

The marriage of William Newman and Marion de Sylla Zucco looks correct.

the 1901 Census shows
44 Springfield Rd
William Newman age 41 Bank Clerk born St Johns Wood London
Marion wife age 39 born St Pancras
Phyllis M age 1month born St Johns Wood
Plus 2 servants.

The age and Place of birth for Marion looks like a match.
So I wonder which Zucco she was with before she married William Newman.

Hope you are enjoying this DNA

regards,

Jim


Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: Steve G on Wednesday 08 July 09 20:05 BST (UK)


One thing I am not sure about is that when Constance was born, her father is listed as a Traveller. I have very limited knowledge but would someone from the Roma/Gypsy community have been recorded as a Traveller? Perhaps it means travelling salesman?



 Errr ..... That's a helluvva point, Jim! Frankly, I was blinded by the fact that all we were getting was that the guy was a Gypsy. This being the " Travelling People " board does rather tend to focus the mind in that way ...

 Now ye have me thinking. The Bob doesn't list " Perkis / Purkiss " what ever. But he does list " Purchas ". Bit ambiguous yet then.

 What's Not so ambiguous though is the (of it's day) use of the word / term " Traveller. Precious little PCness back then. Gypsys (of what ever persuasion) rather tended to be listed as things like " Travelling Gypsys ". The term " Traveller " having been adopted much more recently, on the scale of things as we discuss them.

 Snag is; Gypsys started prefering the term just about as the " Travelling Salesman " type 'Traveller' faded away. The bloke who used to turn up at the door with a suite case full of dusters and pan scourers ~ remember them?  ;D

 Houston ....?
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: katherinem on Wednesday 08 July 09 23:34 BST (UK)
Found Marion on the 1891 census as a widow with a son George G Zucco born Manchester 1886;  George is listed on several passenger lists (each giving an address of 42 Springfield Rd).  On each he is listed as:

1915 - From New York - Occupation Actor
1924 - From S Africa    - Occupation Stage
1927 - From New York - Occupation Actor.

Kath
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: jaytoot on Thursday 09 July 09 02:23 BST (UK)
Hi everyone.

Kath I couldn't find Marion in 1891 what last name is she using.

George is at a Grammar school in 1901 at Borden in Kent.

Also, I made a mistake in the 1911 census it is Connie (not Ann)who states she had 3 children but 1 had died.

I googled 'film george g zucco' Wikipedia has a lot about him. It also, suggests his English mother was a former lady in waiting to the Queen.

Also check out this link
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0958345/bio

Great stuff this.

Jim
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: Steve G on Thursday 09 July 09 02:48 BST (UK)
 He had a stroke, on the set of " Desert Fox " ?! Freak Me Out! I watched that (again) only last Friday!  :o 

 Talk about a small world ....!

Still looks like we're moving ever further from the essence of this particular board though, doesn't it?  Some of the earlier stuff, around Melons and Mr P. could use papering, so we'd know if he was travelling in a vardo or dish cloths.

 Either way, cracking piece of family history!

Just to add another piece of bait; I'd suggest a mention of his military career could fetch up a whole load more stuff, if mentioned on The Great War Forum (http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?act=idx)  ;)
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: jaytoot on Thursday 09 July 09 03:00 BST (UK)
Just found something interesting at the national archives.

Naturalisation Papers: Zucco, George De Sylla, from Corfu, Greece. Certificate 4717 issued 3 June 1865.



Did Marion TRAVEL to Greece?
Could Marion have been Minna and therefor the mother of Constance?

Steve you are right there must be more information on his time in the war probably through regimental records.

Jim

Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: Steve G on Thursday 09 July 09 03:09 BST (UK)
Jim; It's all getting a bit distant and vague now ~ that could be the whiskey and stout though!  :-[ But I believe the MIC is the next step. (Medal Index Card)

 Basically, if ye turned up, they gave ye at least one medal. That was listed on a MIC. Find his MIC and ye have a handle on him and so can cross check all sorts of insidious little things. Parents, home address etc.

 Only I honestly can't remember if ye find the MIC through his Service # or name. A.com / UK hold them though.

 Either way, the chaps on GWF ~ if ye talk to them nicely ~ are quite capable of dissecting the man to the nth degree. They could trot out his units entire history, thus adding another, full, dimension to the background of the man.
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: Steve G on Thursday 09 July 09 03:48 BST (UK)
 Here's our boy ....!


George Zucco
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/ptpc/GeorgeZucco.jpg)


 ;D
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: DNA on Thursday 09 July 09 10:15 BST (UK)
Thank you all very much,you are just brilliant.Now for me eating humble pie.
The comment about was William/Edward Purkis a Romany or "ordinary "traveller made me go back to the cert I obtained nearly 2 years ago and you pwople are just so right!
Underneath the Traveller is a bracket with(Grocery) written in.In my original excitement I didn't transfer this to the family chart and "traveller" seemed to fir into the odd stories about Constance and her life style viz gymnastics ,training with clubs,etc and her later life as very much a person with joi de vivre. My wife's family just didn't talk about her nan's past (quite different from mine)and the mystery of her independent means. When my wife was 7 or 8 she spent a lot of time with her nan who was living in a private hotel in Brighton.A season ticket at the theatre,trips to Paris from 1948 on.buying a house in one the streets leading down to the front etc. From 8 onwards her nan was a big influence in her life  a real "character".
So, many apologies but what you have found is amazing.Maybe Geo Zucco is the source of the moderate wealth Constance enjoyed?
Of course it doesn't solve the mystery of William/Edward and Minna/Wilhemina
If he was hlfway respectable surely he would have wed Minna but I can find no trace of a marriage.
I guess it will remain unsolved but all the things you have discovered add a real dimension to Constance.Fancy the posssibility of her having a relative?friend? in Marion Rintoul /Zucco/Newman who was a lady in waiting to the Queen.I have a Tydur/Tudor as a grt grt grt grandmother!!
The Purkis/Pukess family names are very much New Forest and the tinker/traveller was also something at the back of my mind but I was right up the wrong tree...apologies again.
If any other odd snippets arise I would dearly love to read them
Thank you all
DNA
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: Steve G on Thursday 09 July 09 12:35 BST (UK)
I'm not sure  we're completely through yet, DNA. I still have unresolved questions bugging my mind, as I suspect Kath and Jim might have. Also, there's the simple fact that I've been so blinkered in my own approach, simply because I was consciously Gypsy Hunting. That's bound to have biased my thought process and eye.

 Also, now the heat's off for a minute, I'm looking back and realising how much I missed. Kath, eg. has already mentioned, indeed found the MIC. That had gone right over my head  ::)  and now, having read through the lot again, I find myself sitting here thinking, " Pell? Where the hell did That one spring from?! ".

 See? I'd probably looked at it. Thought, " Naah. Not Gypsy. " and pretty much dismissed it as of no interest to me.  See what I'm saying? Completely blinkered in my head long rush to pin the Gypsy labels. Now I'll be wanting to slow down and go back. Taking a more open minded and considered look at a thing or three.

 Anyway; Ye 'went back to the Cert''? So, ye have the MC of Mr P? Ok. Spell it out, please ~or better yet, scan it and get it up here so we can see / decide for ourselves. What Exactly does it say? Every bit. And shouldn't it mention his Fathers name and Occupation?

 I just have the gut feeling we're being drip fed only partial information here. If we could see the whole picture, as you are, we might spot things you may not consider important, or even notice ..... like " Grocery "  ;D
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: DNA on Friday 10 July 09 06:35 BST (UK)
SteveG
but also Kath and Jaytoot.My scanner is let's say non functioning at the moment,so here goes with the MC.
26/9/1905 at the Parish Church of Saint Pancras
Frederick Alfred Pell 22 Bachelor .Cashier of 3 Leigh Street
Father Caleb Pell Gentleman
Constance.Purkis.Spinster. of 3 Leigh Street
Father Edward Purkis.Traveller
in the presence of
Geo de Sylla Zucco
Marion Newman
Ann Rintoul
Henry L Paget Vicar

As I mentioned before (sometime!) Caleb recorded himself as Charles in the 1901 Census when he was a coachman at Warberry Court Ditton Devon.
Previously in 1891 a coachman in Hampstead at a huge establishment.Where the Gentleman comes from heaven knows.
My wife and I have decided to send for her mum's MC (Edna Marion Pell ) in the hope that father's name occupation etc may be given or at least confirm he was deceased.
That 1911 Census information with Edna Marion being with mother Constance and Mrs Rintoul at Letchworth gives rise to question Where was poor little 3 yr old Hilda? With Marion Newman perhaps or(big or) dad.
My wife really loved her nan and all the time over the years she lived with her and she suddenly recalled today the exquisite furniture she moved into the house in Brighton from storage somewhere.Not your usual chipboard with a veneer!
The Sims and the rest of the Pells ,other than Fred,where so straight forward
to trace ,it's just those pesky Purkis/Perkis lot and poor Mina.
Great to have your help    ...DNA
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: katherinem on Friday 10 July 09 14:01 BST (UK)
Hi everyone.

Kath I couldn't find Marion in 1891 what last name is she using.
Jim

Apologies for the late reply Jim, Marion and George are transcribed on A******y as Trucco, the reference is RG12, Folio 91, Page 45.

Have just looked at the census again and just realised that there are several families living at the same address, No 9 M............. (cannot read the name!).  The first person in the household which starts on the previous page is:

Elizabeth Rintoul, head, S, 36, Newsagent, St Giles.

Still trying to find a connection between Purkis, Taverner, Rintoul, Zucco.

Has anyone found Ann Rintoul in a census before 1861?  I am intrigued by her marriage to James Rintoul, as Freebmd has her name as Ann Lone, whilst the IGI has Ann Lone or Millin.

Kath
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: jaytoot on Friday 10 July 09 14:53 BST (UK)
Hi Kath,

thanks for the update
In 1891 cens
living at 9 Marchmont st Bloomsbury

Elizabeth Rintoul age 36 Newsagent

Marion Trucco age 29 widow dressmaker
George (son) age 5
Edward  Perkins age 38 Widow Theatrical prompter - born London brompton.

So now we have Perkins Rintoul and Trucco/Zucco at the same adress.

I found James Rintoul in 1881
James Wintoul Married Cab proprieter.
Nellie Gerrard visitor age 34 married.
He also has a servant living with him.

I thought Ann Rintoul would have been Ann Miller due to her brother John Miller being with her in 1901 census.

I havn't Found James and Ann together exept in 1871 under the name rintard.
According to that James would have been 15 when his daughter Elizabeth is born.

Still we at least have the theatrical link that may have prompted George Zucco to become an Actor.

Where next.

Regards,

Jim







Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: katherinem on Friday 10 July 09 15:58 BST (UK)
Hi,

Ooh never associated Edward Perkins as the elusive William/Edward Purkis, of course the names sound so similar.

Ann is on the 1861 transcribed as Rinbeal as follows:

24 Evesholt, Marylebone (RG9/109, Folio 20, Page 40), all born St Pancras
James Rintoul, Head, Mar, 24, Pianoforte Maker
Ann         "     , Wife,  Mar,  27
Ann E      "     , Dau,            7

As Ann (Elizabeth) was born about six years before James and Ann were married and as you have mentioned James would have been about 15, I would think she is the product of another liaison, have yet to find a birth reg yet.

Kath
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: jaytoot on Friday 10 July 09 16:45 BST (UK)
Hi again

the marriage of James and Ann is strange because as you say free bmd shows a possible match for James Rintove or Rintowl (mis transcribed). I can find no mention of Ann Millen, but Ann Lone is there but the volume page does not match.

On the 1891 census for Marion Trucco - hold your horses!!!!

This name is transcribed as Edward J PERKINS (not purkis). Where it says he is a theatrical prompter just above this it says something like Arg - it's messy.

Jim
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: jaytoot on Friday 10 July 09 16:59 BST (UK)
I found a marriage on free bmd in 1893

It is not concrete as there is another couple on the page though i think a search of the 1901 cenus discounts the other couple.

1893 June quarter St Giles
Edward James Perkins
Elizabeth Anne Lone

could be just coincidence?

I couldn't resist the 1911 census again.
31 Burton street Cartwight villas.

Edward James Perkins - Newsagent age 57 born london compton
Elizabeth Anne Perkins age 56 born st giles
Henry Millen age 85 wifes uncle

There are a number of residents(lodgers and boarders) one is called Mary Louisa Bunn age 25 American Variety Artiste.

Jim

Jim
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: katherinem on Friday 10 July 09 19:38 BST (UK)
Fantastic!  With the 1911 census you have found Ann's brother Henry again and this time he is Millen.

With reference to the marriage on FreeBMD, if you view the pages the entries for James Rintowl (Rintoul), the entry is actually Rintoul and the page number is 20, the same as Ann Lone.  Also this marriage is on the IGI, the marriage was on the 1 Jul 1860 at Old Church, St Pancras, and for Ann it say Lone or Millin.  Now that her Elizabeth Ann names are the right way round (1861 had Ann E), have found her baptism on the IGI, father John Lone, mother Ann, at Finsbury in 1855.

Just as I thought -  Ann was married before James Rintoul!  Right off to do some more digging!

Kath
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: jaytoot on Friday 10 July 09 20:17 BST (UK)
Kath

found 1841 henry Millen

Family recorded as Mellen in census transcription

Edwin age 62 bookies ?
Eliza age 46
Henry 15
Edward 10
Ann 8

This might be ann and her brother

jim
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: jaytoot on Friday 10 July 09 23:27 BST (UK)
Hi all,

a search on the internet says George Zucco was born on 11th January 1886.

Freebmd has George Z_cco 1886 - March quarter Prestwich. 8d 418

Now DNA you might want to buy this one!!!

Jim
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: DNA on Saturday 11 July 09 04:28 BST (UK)
Thank you jay and katherine
I have drawn up a chart now that shows the Rintouls and their links to Constance Pell and includes all the info you have gleaned.It certainly illuminates Connie's life.
The disappearing husband Frederick Alfred Pell and the (unwed?) William/Edward Purkis and Minna /Wlhemina Taverner seem to have successfully avoided being together on a census or marriage cert.
Great work
DNA
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: katherinem on Saturday 11 July 09 08:37 BST (UK)
found 1841 henry Millen

Family recorded as Mellen in census transcription

Edwin age 62 bookies ?
Eliza age 46
Henry 15
Edward 10
Ann 8

This might be ann and her brother

jim
Just to add there is another sister Louisa, age 7 on the next page; she appears to have married George Edward Haynes in 1854.  Also I think Edwin's occupation could possibly be brokers.

Back to Edward Perkins and Elizabeth Ann (nee Lone), there is this interesting 1901 entry:

34 Tonbridge St, St Pancras
Edward G Rintoul, Head, M, 47, Newsagent, Shopkeeper, Fulham
Elizabeth     "      , Wife, M, 46, St Giles
Arthur Kentish, Nephew, 4, Lambeth

Why the name change?

John Lone and Ann Millen married 1854, St Lukes reg dist.

Kath
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: katherinem on Sunday 12 July 09 09:22 BST (UK)
Hi DNA,

Who registered Constance's birth and did they sign their name?  Was it this cert that had traveller and then grocer underneath or was that the marriage cert?

Sorry just more questions :)

Kath
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: jaytoot on Sunday 12 July 09 09:41 BST (UK)
Hi Kath,
you are right it's good to double check and DNA while your checking can you make sure that the father's name is Purkis not Perkins (just a long shot).

Also in the 1891 census Constance seems to have a middle name she is recorded as Contance E...........does this show on the birth certificate.

Also, i don't know if you have already seen it Kath but freebmd has a death registerd in 1887 for a Steffano Zicco age 40 in St Giles. This could have been a typo as the letters I and U are next to one anther on the Keyboard.
This death is after the birth of George and before the marriage of Marion desylla Zucco to Pell.

Jim
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: jaytoot on Sunday 12 July 09 10:15 BST (UK)
Sorry,

just to add to my last message.

From the beginning of this thread i have been looking for pUrkis.
The wedding shows Constance as pUrkis. Her Father recorded as Edward!

As we have never seen her real last name in the census we have no other clues except for the birth certificate.
1. Free BMD records a Constance Perkis born 1882 Pancras.
2.Constance Eline Purkis born 1885 Islington.

I am sure you must have the first one but this means she was most likely a PERKIS not a purkis as shown on her wedding cert and at the beginning of the thread.

Help please DNA.

Jim
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: katherinem on Sunday 12 July 09 11:16 BST (UK)
Jim- Constance Eline birth reg was in 1895, not 1885 and there are two entries for her, the other has Webb-Purkis.  Had seen the Steffano death thanks.

There is a medal card for a Frederick A Pell, he was a private in the Army Service Corps and then a Warrant Officer in the Army Pay Corps, noticed that your Frederick was a cashier on the marriage cert, which would fit in well with the Pay Corps.  Cannot see any other info on this chap apart from the medal card states he deserted in 1920!

Kath
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: jaytoot on Sunday 12 July 09 11:37 BST (UK)
Thanks Kath got carried away with Purkis and Perkis. However, we need to be sure if Constance is a Purkis or a Perkis.

I think DNA is using the spelling from the marriage cert not the one from the Birth cert.

If the birth certificate is Perkis then i would assume that many years later when Constance got married they used the wrong spelling.

Have you managed to find Edward James Perkins before 1891, there is a birth for Edward James Perkins in 1853 kensington but i can't find him in the census.

jim
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: jaytoot on Monday 13 July 09 00:51 BST (UK)
Hi Kath,

I took a look at the medal card for Frederick A Pell and the fact that he is in the Army pay corp is a likely link to our man.

It seems he went into the Army Service corp first then the Army pay corp. Started as Private ended as Warrant officer.
He served overseas in France in 1915 and got the Star medal then he was given the British and Victory medals. What a shame that he did this service and then ends up in 1920 as a deserter. I wonder what the punishment was for this.

A great pity that his enlistment papers are not there, they sometimes can tell you a lot.

Jim
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: DNA on Monday 13 July 09 05:46 BST (UK)
Hi Kath and Jaytoot
 I am back on line after a 2 day power outage on the peninsula where we live .We wouldn't live anywhere else but there is a price when storms arrive.
You are so right again!
The birth was registered by Minna Perkis (yes with an e) nee Taverner 22/9/1882
Grays Inn Only one name Constance.Father William Perkis...Traveller(Grocery)The birth being reported quite a bit later on 6/11/1882.Resident 29 Argyle Street.Pancras.As i mentioned before, looking at the census takers records 2 years ago the 1881 details for that address were destroyed "by Fire" with the other side of the street being available!!
The MC witnessed by the now well known Rintouls and Mr Zucco records Constance as Purkis "u" as you so correctly guessed and Edward,not William,as father and simply"Traveller".
But it certainly looks as though you have found Frederick Alfred in 1914 to 1920 .What was he up to in 1911? He and little Hilda seem to have missed the count.Like those pesky Perkis lot in the 1800's
What a tangled web they wove .My Welsh Hughes and Griffiths ancestors were simple in comparison even though non conformist chapel records  are so sparse
Thank you yet again
DNA
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: jaytoot on Wednesday 15 July 09 10:01 BST (UK)
Hi DNA

You orginally said that Contance Perkins was registered at birth at 29 Argyle street Grays Inn London. Also, that the records for this address for 1881 destroyed by fire.

I found this address in 1881 but the names of the people living there do not seem to help us. A search for Colin Reynard born born 1811 to 1815 should take you to the page.

What made you think that these records had been destroyed by fire?

regards,

Jim
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: jaytoot on Wednesday 15 July 09 11:57 BST (UK)
Minna Taverner is Minnie.

Free Bmd has a birth of Minnie Tavenner 1859 st James. March quarter 1a 336.

1871 Census St Anne Westminster
Gt Chappel street
Edward Tavener age 40 Dairyman Kingsbury Dorset
Mary A age 30 wife Barton Wiltshire
Minna age 12 Middlesex St James
Julia age 8 Middlesex St Anne
Thomas age 5 Middlesex St Anne
Jane age 2 months Middlesex St Anne

1881 Census
London Newington - Trinity Newington.
District Summary of Miss Tarns Establishment

Minnie Tavener age 22 Drapers assistant born Soho Middlesex.

This seems to be a large business with about 10 pages of people who are working there.

Hopefully this is her.


Jim
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: jaytoot on Wednesday 15 July 09 17:08 BST (UK)
Hi Again,

Free bmd had a marriage in 1886 st Giles Sept quarter.

search on Arthur Roland Cooke shows marriage to Min(nu)A Tavener, when you view the actual entry it is Minna Tavener.

1891 Census Kensington Brompton
4 Alma Terrace
Arthur Cooke age 25 Lodging house keeper born Nottingham
Minnie wife age 29 born Middlsex London St Annes
Cyril D  under 3 months - Middlsex London kensington

1901 Census Croydon

Minnie and Cyril are visiting her sister Julia Mould and husband Richard H(hopper) Mould at Birchanger road croydon.

1911 Census
Minna Cooke and Cyril d are at the house of Mary Anne Read (widow). Living at Stembridge Martock Somerset.

I think her son's full name is Cyril Dudley Cooke.

If this is the right Minna taverner that i have been looking at then she may never have married William Perkis. In the 1911 census she says she has had only one child but perhaps she wouldn't admit to anymore.

Regards,

Jim

Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: DNA on Tuesday 21 July 09 06:04 BST (UK)

Hello Jaytoot
Returned from visiting daughters and grandkids (5yr old birthday party ! ).The Minna Taverner  you found could well be the right one. Constance Perkis was so clearly brought up by the Rintoul family;after the birth was recorded and William Perkis/Purkis disappeared and young Minna left to fend for herself.
When I was searching for the enumerator's actual Census record for 29 Argyle Street I got to the address only to find a message for that part of the street
"destroyed in fire".Can't say why it now appears to be there.
Thank you again for such great input.Unless there exists some record of travelling salesmen (groceries) I guess we will never find William and that chapter is closed.
DNA
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: naomid on Tuesday 09 July 13 17:33 BST (UK)
I know this is an old thread, but maybe I have new information...
I am researching a Frederick Alfred PELL, a motor mechanic, who had at least one (probably illegitimate) child in the 1920s. I suspect he is the same Frederick Alfred PELL that married Constance PURKIS in 1905 (and Georgina THORNE in 1940). I also believe he was killed in 1947.
I just need one thing to link the two Fredericks together. It would really help me to know all the addresses that he is known to have lived at, and details from the birth certificates of his children with Constance.

Thank you!

Naomi
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: DNA on Friday 12 July 13 05:38 BST (UK)
Hi Naomi
Well that was a bolt from the blue. I can add a fair bit to the story. Frederick Alfred Pell married my wife's grandmother Constance Purkis at St Pancras Church 26/9/1905.The most significant witness was a Ann Rintoul ,who ,to cut a long story very short.had adopted or fostered Constance when her mother Minna Tavener was deserted by the father William/Edward Perkis/Purkis (both names occur on birth cert /marriage cert)
The address given was 3 Leigh Street, Pancras London where Constance had lived from childhood  and even at one time using the name Rintoul.
The 1911 census shows Ann and Constance as visitors at the home of Mr and Mrs Simpkins in Letchworth Herts with my wife's mum Edna Marion aged 4 Occupation is "Private Means" The second  child Hilda is not recorded but should be ???.
Of Fred Pell there is no mention or trace that I can find. But in searching I did find him continuing his book keeping back ground (as given in the marriage cert) in the RASC pay corps He served from 1915 in France and rose to the rank of Sergeant acting Warrant officer.He seems to have done well and got the basic war medals but deserted in 1920.
Constance brought up the girls basically alone from about 1912 it seems but Mrs Rintoul was a real loving help. I can't give you any other addresses I'm afraid and my wife doesn't know either until Constance's Brighton years when she spent many happy weeks with her favourite Nan.
Of Fred the deserter (in both senses ) I did find a reference to the burial of a Sergeant Frederick Alfred Pell at Islington Cemetery with his RASC number S/186093   on 26 Oct 1947.
Final bit...my wife recalls that her Nan spoke often of her good friend Naomi.   Coincidence ? or do you know yet more etc etc
We look forward to a post from you that explains the connection.
DNA
 
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: naomid on Friday 12 July 13 16:32 BST (UK)
Hi DNA,

Thanks for your reply.

I am researching for the child of one of Frederick's illegitimate children, so probably not the Naomi your wife's nan spoke about!

To match up my two Frederick Alfreds, I am hoping to match an address, or a housemate. I am 99% sure they are one and the same, but I need the proof!

Do you have any of the following certificates, and if so, could you give me any information from them:

Birth of either of the children of Constance and Frederick Alfred?
Death certificate of Frederick Alfred 1947?

Have you heard of any of the following people, who lived in the same house as Frederick Alfred's partner, with whom he had a number of children:

Edith M REEVE
Mary A REEVE
Margaret MEEKINS
Robert Charles TURNER
Alfred Dawes TURNER
Emily BRAUTIGAN
Jane BAUGH
Margaret Mary PERRY

They all lived at 15 Epirus Road, Fulham, as did Else May PELL / MEEKINS, his partner.

Any information gratefully received!

Thank you!,

Naomi
Hi Naomi
Well that was a bolt from the blue. I can add a fair bit to the story. Frederick Alfred Pell married my wife's grandmother Constance Purkis at St Pancras Church 26/9/1905.The most significant witness was a Ann Rintoul ,who ,to cut a long story very short.had adopted or fostered Constance when her mother Minna Tavener was deserted by the father William/Edward Perkis/Purkis (both names occur on birth cert /marriage cert)
The address given was 3 Leigh Street, Pancras London where Constance had lived from childhood  and even at one time using the name Rintoul.
The 1911 census shows Ann and Constance as visitors at the home of Mr and Mrs Simpkins in Letchworth Herts with my wife's mum Edna Marion aged 4 Occupation is "Private Means" The second  child Hilda is not recorded but should be ???.
Of Fred Pell there is no mention or trace that I can find. But in searching I did find him continuing his book keeping back ground (as given in the marriage cert) in the RASC pay corps He served from 1915 in France and rose to the rank of Sergeant acting Warrant officer.He seems to have done well and got the basic war medals but deserted in 1920.
Constance brought up the girls basically alone from about 1912 it seems but Mrs Rintoul was a real loving help. I can't give you any other addresses I'm afraid and my wife doesn't know either until Constance's Brighton years when she spent many happy weeks with her favourite Nan.
Of Fred the deserter (in both senses ) I did find a reference to the burial of a Sergeant Frederick Alfred Pell at Islington Cemetery with his RASC number S/186093   on 26 Oct 1947.
Final bit...my wife recalls that her Nan spoke often of her good friend Naomi.   Coincidence ? or do you know yet more etc etc
We look forward to a post from you that explains the connection.
DNA
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: DNA on Saturday 13 July 13 04:41 BST (UK)
Hello there Naomi
Well at least we have established that my wife has relatives she had no idea about via her grandfather Frederick Alfred.Can you throw any light on his death and subsequent burial ?
Sorry we do not have a birth cert for Edna Marion Pell as the date was 100% established long before we started on the Constance Pell mystery.
Best I can do is give birth date and place    20/5/1906  St Marylebone  London  you are probably better placed than we are to speedily obtain a birth cert with address etc as we live in New Zealand.
We would be delighted to learn more about Frederick's offspring illegitimate or not ...though it won't throw much light on his actions unless their are family stories from them and their children.
Addictive stuff this.
Regards and hoping to hear more.
DNA
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: DNA on Thursday 15 August 13 04:05 BST (UK)
Hello there Naomi
Hope you are still willing to share any findings as the mystery for my wife still exists about her nan and granddad Frederick Alfred Pell.
Anything new ??
DNA
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: naomid on Saturday 16 November 13 21:01 GMT (UK)
Hi,

I got the medical records of Frederick Alfred PELL, and they make me more convinced that we are talking about the same guy, but it's so confusing! He claims a birth date of 10/5/1891, even though we know he was born in much earlier. He claims to be unmarried at the time of marrying his second wife, but his first wife is still alive. He is absent from the records during the time the illegitimate family I have was being born.

I also found a reference to a will of a William Rowland JACKAMAN, Solicitor, who left his money to a Constance PELL in 1929. Might this be her mysterious benefactor?

What happened to Frederick Alfred after he deserted the army in 1920? The next time he appears, he is joining up again in 1940, and he remarries the same year. The illegitimate children that look like they are his are born in 1924, 1926, and 1927.

I would REALLY like to see Edna Marion's marriage certificate, to see what she gives as her father's name and occupation.

Naomi
Title: Re: Traveller ancestor ..still looking
Post by: DNA on Sunday 17 November 13 04:56 GMT (UK)
Hi Naomi
Great to have you back.My wife's mum's marriage was one of our well established events and we don't have a Marriage cert.The marriage to Eric William George Sims took place 20/6/1931 in Greenwich at St Paul's Church  You will be able to get a cert faster than we can in New Zealand and hope you will be happy to share the info with us.Similarly can you give a link to the Solicitor as we would like to see what the provisions of the will were.Solving the source of this favourite Nans "private means" would be great .
Happy hunting
DNA