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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: will-o-wisp on Friday 03 July 09 15:37 BST (UK)
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I am still trying to trace my grandfather's whereabouts between his birth in 1883 and his marriage in 1902. For all you people who are saying 'not again' I do apologise but this is now becoming something of an obsession. My grandfather left home when my father was aged 10 so we knew very little about him. I have now managed to discover quite a lot but would like to fill in the gaps if possible - rather long winded but here goes:
Born 1883 in Gorton, Manchester, illegitimate son of Elizabeth Callister domestic servant.
1902 - Married to Martha Alice Cheetham St George's Parish Church, Tyldesley, Lancashire - address on cert. 19 Bank Street Tyldesley.
Between 1906 and the 1911 census he lived at 3 different addresses in Tyldesley.
1911 - Lodging with a family called Simm 13 Herbert Street St Helens.
1913/1914 - 12 Herbert Street St Helens with rest of his family.
Sept. 1913 - joined Cheshire Regiment - October of that year discharged as 'medically unfit' but I think he must have re-enlisted at a later date when they weren't so fussy as he eventually was awarded an Army Pension.
1919-1923 - living at 33 Bank Street, Tyldesley (where my grandmother remained until her death)
In 1923 he was reported missing and a body pulled out of the local canal was identified as him and a death certificate was issued and a burial carried out. He was subsequently found alive in Manchester early in 1927 and admitted to The Leigh Union Hospital where he remained until June of that year whilst steps were made to have his pension restored. He died in July of 1946 in Prestwich Union Hospital Delaunays Road Crumpsall and was buried in Philips Park Cemetery in a Public grave. I have been able to visit this and place a memorial cross there but would like to fill in the gaps prior to his marriage as it
is almost as if he never existed. If anyone comes across him on any census searches and could let me know I would be very grateful. Also if anyone has any electoral records for the Ancoats area of Manchester (at the time of his death his home address was 64 Hood Street Ancoats) and discovers him I would be very grateful to have details.
For all of you who haven't lost the will to live and have persevered to the end of this episode of 'War and Peace' thank you so much.
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Dear Will-o-wisp, what was his name? ;D ;D ;D
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Dear Will-o-wisp, what was his name? ;D ;D ;D
What a plonker - all that info and no name - sorry Herbert Callister
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Just to save any duplication this thread also concerns Herbert
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,389560.0.html
Evie
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Hi
According to An****ry there is a Herbert Callister on the New York and Boston passenger list 1820 -1943. I cant access them but there may be someone on here who can check them for you.
Did wonder about the name ;D ;D
Jan
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Hi
I think the one you saw Jan was Herbert C Callister but his arrival date was 1910. I think it is a different guy.
Still cannot find Herbert on the 1891, 1901 census though :-\
Evie
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Other Herbert Callisters on the shipping lists have the wrong birthpace
Linda
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Other Herbert Callisters on the shipping lists have the wrong birthpace
Linda
I am as sure as can be that he would not be on any shipping list - I have been able to trace him from the date of his marriage through the birth certificate of my father and his siblings.
will-o-wisp
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Hi
Have you looked at Eliza Callister married Apr - Jun 1896 Toxteth Park?
Others on list:Annie Laird
William Brown Laird
Charles John Poynter
Index: 8b 365.
Could Herbert temporarily as a young child have had his surname changed to fot with a stepfather?
Just a thought.
Goodnight!
Emms
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following Emms thought and Herberts later connection with Tyldesley - there is a Herbert Jennings b. 1883 who is a visitor on the 1891 census at Alfred Street, Tydesley. Jackie
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following Emms thought and Herberts later connection with Tyldesley - there is a Herbert Jennings b. 1883 who is a visitor on the 1891 census at Alfred Street, Tydesley. Jackie
Well, I am glad you have found this one too. I suspect he became Herbert Stockton on the 1901 census listed as "Cousin" to Kate/Catherine Stockton. It is a while since I tried to track him, but seem to remember I couldn`t find a suitable birth for a Herbert Jennings or Stockton.
Regards.
Mo
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Hello all,
Apologies for this being long winded - I am just trying to clarify the data ;D ;D ;D (I have to laugh-sorry)
It is quite tempting to connect Herbert callister/Jennings/Stockton but it is trying to link them that is the problem. It may be that the Stockton is just dittoed but it still leaves the problem of where Jennings comes from.
Will-o-wisp
Do you know if the address on the birth certificate is a home for unmarried mothers or similar or a private address?
I was wondering if she was perhaps sent away from home to have the child as Manchester is a few miles from Tyldesley.
Who were the witnesses on his marriage certificate? Do they offer any clues?
Catherine Stockton comes from Haydock and is Mahon before marriage. I think this is her in 1871: RG10; Piece: 3900; Folio: 64; Page: 54
She is not at home with her mother in 1881 RG11; Piece: 3811; Folio: 89; Page: 31
There isn't a sister called Elizabeth that I can see who may have been the mother of Herbert :-\
John Stockton is with his brother Thomas and his wife Ann in 1881 RG11; Piece: 3811; Folio: 93; Page: 40
Possible marriage for Thomas to Hannah Burns in 1877-Leigh
Both Thomas and John are born Burslem Staffs in 1881.
1891 -John born Pemberton (has mother Mary Beesley b 1837 Shropshire with the family)
There is a possible for Thomas in 1861 boarding in Pemberton with parents William and Mary.
I feel I could go on finding/not finding these people with same/ different names and different places of birth... sometimes you wonder how we can be as successful as we are finding these ancestors ::)
Needless to say, at the moment, I am no nearer than I was a good while ago but thought I would post the 'findings' to help/discard any links with these families other than those census links. (for the time being... ever hopeful).
heywood
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Good Evening all
Just a thought which I haven't really pursued: bearing in mind the Isle of Man connection (see previous thread) could the surname be McCallister (for which, in the censuses, there are quite a few different versions)?
There is this marriage:
Marriages Dec 1884
Dunn James W. Derby 8b 591
KEELEY Eliza W.Derby 8b 591
McCallister Eliza W.Derby 8b 591
McCallister Elizabeth W.Derby 8b 591
Taylor William Alexander W. Derby 8b 591
As I say, just a thought!
Ivan
Edit:
... and this:
1901 census
(RG13 Piece 3637 Folio 139 Page 16)
The Barracks, Bolton Road Elton Bury Lancashire
MCCALLISTER, Herbert ,Inmate, Single, 19, Private Militia Infantry, born Bolton Lancs
(Shame he was born Bolton, though!)
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Hi Ivanidea
I don't know if that will end up being the one, but I did think about McCallister and even McAllister and similar. We get loads up here from Scotland and especially Ireland who drop and pick up the Mc at will.
Also, if therte was a connection in Scotland or Ireland they may have wishes to Anglicise the name by removoing the Mc for privacy reasons.
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi again,
i too thought that and actually looked up an Elizabeth McAllister who is in Wigan in 1881 aged 15 yrs with her mother Emma and several siblings. Then though I had to go out to church and have just returned (thinking about this I have to say) and lo and behold you also think on similar lines ;D
The trouble is that Elizabeth is still with her mother in 1891 :(
You would imagine that there is a connection somehow with those Stocktons but that is IF that is Herbert Callister in disguise.
heywood
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quote from will-o-wisp:
1902 - Married to Martha Alice Cheetham St George's Parish Church, Tyldesley, Lancashire - address on cert. 19 Bank Street Tyldesley.
1901 19 Bank Street - Sarah Latchford 56 yrs and James her son 29 yrs :(
It is District 19 where that Herbert is with the Stocktons.
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A possible link between Stockton and Jennings:
Marriages Sep 1876
Greeson James Manchester 8d 385
Jennings Catherine Manchester 8d 385
Mahon Dennis Manchester 8d 385
Rice Ellen Manchester 8d 385
1881 census
(RG11 Piece 4005 Folio 103 Page 13)
13, Tebutt St Rochdale Rd, Manchester
GREESON, James Head Married M 30 1851 Labourer Manchester
GREESON, Ellen Wife Married F 28 1853 Hawker Manchester
GREESON, James Son Single M 3 1878 Manchester
GREESON, Mary Daughter Single F 0 1881 Manchester
RICE, James Wifes Father Married M 60 1821 Hawker Ireland
(So it would seem that Catherine Jennings married Dennis Mahon)
Possible death for Dennis:
Deaths Mar 1877
MAHON Dennis 39 Leigh 8c 161
Possible second marriage for Catherine
Marriages Mar 1883
GEE William Leigh 8c 267
MAHON Catherine Leigh 8c 267
Stockton John Leigh 8c 267
Whitehead Ellen Leigh 8c 267
Provisional data, of course!
Ivan
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The only thing is Ivan that the Catherine Mahon who I think/thought married John Stockton has a father Dennis who dies between 1871 and 1881.
Also, Catherine Mahon/Stockton was Haydock and the marriages you have are Manchester.
I feel as though I just don't know though ::)
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Yes. I saw the 1871 Mahon Census for Dennis, Bridget and family and wondered!
Could be the same family group or, of course, could be a red herring!
Even so it still leaves the Catherine Jennings/Dennis Mahon marriage to "sort out"!
Ivan
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You're so right and all this also hinges on whether Herbert Callister born Manchester is Herbert Jennings/Stockton living in Tyldesley. So the two places are involved somehow and of course we have to link the name Callister :-\
Back for another trawl around the censuses
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.
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Do you know if the address on the birth certificate is a home for unmarried mothers or similar or a private address?
I was wondering if she was perhaps sent away from home to have the child as Manchester is a few miles from Tyldesley.
heywood
I found 7 Brighton Ave (see the original post) on the 1881, and it was occupied by a family called Firkins. It appeara to be a private residence.
RG11/3906/65 Page 42
There is an Elizabeth Ann Firkins among them, age 26, 'born St Helena, Africa' She is listed as married but there is no obvious spouse, so hard to tell whether Firkins is her married or maiden name.
Might be worth casting around for a Firkins/Callister connection? Yet another 'just a thought'!
Another thought is that, is Herbert was born in Manchester but then was taken somewhere else straight afterwards, he might not have known that he was born there. So I would have another look at the non-Manchester Herberts, if nothing else shows up.
:) Barbara
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following Emms thought and Herberts later connection with Tyldesley - there is a Herbert Jennings b. 1883 who is a visitor on the 1891 census at Alfred Street, Tydesley. Jackie
Well, I am glad you have found this one too. I suspect he became Herbert Stockton on the 1901 census listed as "Cousin" to Kate/Catherine Stockton. It is a while since I tried to track him, but seem to remember I couldn`t find a suitable birth for a Herbert Jennings or Stockton.
Regards.
Mo
Mo you could possibly have done it for me - my mother (now aged 96 and suffering from alzheimers so unable to assist any more) used to insist that Herbert was fostered by a family called 'Stockton' - i will try this route.
will-0-wisp :)
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Mo
I could kiss you - and all you other wonderful people who have tried to help. I always understood grandad lived 'down the Jig' which is an area of Tyldesley - the addresses on the 1901 census and the 1891 census are both Jig addresses - I think I've finally cracked it!
Thank you all so much
will-o-wisp :-*
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Do you know if the address on the birth certificate is a home for unmarried mothers or similar or a private address?
I was wondering if she was perhaps sent away from home to have the child as Manchester is a few miles from Tyldesley.
heywood
I found 7 Brighton Ave (see the original post) on the 1881, and it was occupied by a family called Firkins. It appeara to be a private residence.
RG11/3906/65 Page 42
There is an Elizabeth Ann Firkins among them, age 26, 'born St Helena, Africa' She is listed as married but there is no obvious spouse, so hard to tell whether Firkins is her married or maiden name.
Might be worth casting around for a Firkins/Callister connection? Yet another 'just a thought'!
Another thought is that, is Herbert was born in Manchester but then was taken somewhere else straight afterwards, he might not have known that he was born there. So I would have another look at the non-Manchester Herberts, if nothing else shows up.
:) Barbara
Interesting:
1871 Census Scotland
Elizabeth Ann Firkins b 1854 St Helens Lancashire
She is a pupil at a Girls Reformatory, Old Machar, Aberdeenshire !
There is a birth for her in Prescot district 1854 and a marriage in 1875 Chorlton (Manchester) district to either Walter Bennett or Samuel Griggs.
well... I'm having a think!
Lancashire BMD has the marriage- it is to Walter Bennett
I thought we were getting closer - 1891 -the Firkins have a grandson living with them surname McAuley but found another daughter married a Mr McAuley (was thinking that McCallister may sounds like McAuley- grasping at straws ::))
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just thought to check and the Firkins (mum, dad and grandchild) are not living in same street in 1891.
Thomas Firkins is from Worcestershire originally and Mary Firkins from Wales so at the moment can't make any connection with Stocktons.
It's becoming more pear-shaped :-\
1881 RG11; Piece: 3767; Folio: 130; Page: 47
there is a Walter and Elizabeth Ann Bennettt living Wigan. He is a policeman and she is born St Helens 1855 (as is Elizabeth Ann Firkins who is living in manchester at same time!)
They have a son born 1876 Manchester :-\
(Unless she was entered twice on census - can there be two Elizabeth Ann Firkins?)
1891 the family are in Ashton u Lyne with more boys. The next son after Thomas is Albert born 1883 :-\ so this can't be the mother of Herbert Callister :-\
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I think it is quite safe to post this as a look up completed - although I can understand why Herbert Callister appears as Herbert Stockton on the 1901 census I am at a loss as to why he is using the name Jennings on the 1891 census. However I am convinced that both these Herberts are 'my Herbert' and as Herbert was illegitimate, left home when my father was quite young and 'dissappeared' until I managed to trace his I think I have discovered more than I could ever have hoped for.
So thank you everyone who has helped.
Will-o-Wisp