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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: charlotteCH on Thursday 02 July 09 05:04 BST (UK)
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In Feb 1902 the Bradfrord Observor carried an article about the funeral of my grandfather Charles Henry Hargreaves. It says,
" A short servive was conducted at the deceased residence, Sunnybank Ilkey, by the Rev. F.H.Blanchford- who subsequently officiated at the graveside- and the remains were afterwards conveyed to Bradford by train." There followed a long list of those who had assembled at the station and accompanied the cortege to the cemetery.
Was there a special funeral trainused for this and what was it like?
Did it operate along the same lines as the ordinary Bradford-Ilkley train? If this was so, it would have had to be scheduled to run at times between ordinary trains.
Did the train go to a special station at Scholemoor?
I assume the estate of the deceased paid for the train.. any idea what it would have cost?
On another ppoint,l was the holding of a service at the house usual or unusual? why not at their church?
Any info about this is of interest..
Thanks,
charlotte
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Hi Charlotte,
Do you mind if I sit quietly in the corner and listen in? :) I have a few in my tree where the train was used and would like to know the answer.
Cheers
KHP
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Hi khp, Delighted ;D
Presumably from the house or church to the station there would have been horse drawn vehicles- hearse I suppose- with horses decked out in black with plumes on their heads...
I wonder if the cemeteries had mortuary station into which these trains came? Then how was the coffin moved from the station to the graveside? More horse drawn vehicles? And all the mourners walking? The distances may have been quite large as the cem were big.
Whole topic is interesting as it is a bygone era for us with motor cars.
let's hope we get lots of info to help understand this.
charlotte
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funeral_train
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That's an interesting link and thanks for that, bikermickau. :D
I wonder how much it all cost...
charlotte
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Very interesting to read.
As you say the cost ..... was there a different rate for the different classes?
Cheers
KHP :)
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khp, do you mean different classes of carriage as in 1st class,2nd class etc... ie tickets on the train?
That brings a new thought to mind about funeral trains... were they regular trains- ie say run twice a week on a declared schedule between places- in this instance Ilkley and Bradford or were they hired by the family of the deceased and only that one body and its mourners travelled on the train?
I'd assumed the later to be the case..
charlotte
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Charotte I guess I wasn't thinking straight when I typed it.
I was thinking more of status, as in upper class, middle class etc Not everyone was in the money, but yet to get to a cemetery with the train, there had to be money that passed hands, but was it all one price?
This is one subject that I have never persued, so there are so many answers to questions to find out.
Cheers
KHP
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khp... who ever does think straight ::) ;D
Re who paid for the train? I'd think the family of the deceased unless it was a scheduled funeral train that burials had to fit in with... but even then I'd guess the dec'd family paid to have the coffin transported and maybe paid for several carriages to accomodate the mourners...
In the case I quote at the beginning of this thread, money was not tight so the family would have paid and the mourners been taken free. Of course there would have been a return trip by train after the interrment... so many things we never know about...
charlotte
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Hi Charlotte
http://www.peacefunerals.co.uk/Railway.html
ricky
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Thank you ricky ;D... I knew we needed a train buff :D
So it would seem it was a specially commissioned train, paid for by the family...which I assume had to be scheduled to run in time available between the ordinary trains- and this then went off the main line near Bradford to a special line that lead into Scholemoor Cem.
What I posit above assumes that in 1902 the arrangements are similar to those offered on your link... many assumptions there.
charlotte
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Maybe Ricky has this in mind for his :P :D
Night catch you later.
Cheers
KHP :D
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Hi Charlotte,
I knew this topic would generate lots of interest.
The nearest train station to Scholemoor cemetery was on the Bradford to Halifax line at the Bradford side of Beckside road. I do seem to remember a platform that served Baird Television and the mill, at the other side of Beckside Road. From there it would be about a mile to Scholemoor cemetery, there was no branch line so I would imagine a horse drawn carriage would be used.
Dave
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Hi Dave,
So the funeral train would have left from Ilkley Station, gone into Bradford and then onto the Hx line and pulled into the station near Beckside Rd. The coffin and morners would have got off the train and then travelled the last mile to the Cem and graveside by horse drawn carriage... and done the reverse on the trip back.
Is that how you'd think this all went in 1902?
charlotte
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Hi Charlotte,
I don't see any other way unless the funeral train was routed from the Ilkley line onto the Halifax line. I think that it might even have involved a change of station in Bradford :-\. The rail network was far bigger then than now, it might even have been possible to go the other way round i.e. Ilkley, Skipton, Keighley, Halifax, Bradford.
One alternative would have been a train from Ilkley to Bradford then a horse drawn hearse travelling the 5 miles or so to Scholemoor with the mourners following on foot or perhaps in horse drawn 'charavans' .
There are wide aisles at Scholemoor so carriages, hearses and so on would be able to drive right to the grave side.
There was a web site dedicated to 'underground Brittain' where there was a lot of older railway information, try Google it.
Bradford T&A as well as the Observer might have reported the funeral, if so then the staff at Bradford Library might be able to help you.
Dave
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Dave thanks for that info,
Unlikely the last 5 miles was on foot as it was mid February and probably snowing. So either by train or they would have had a stack of carriages at the station.
I have a report from the Bradford Observor 17/2/02 and there is a long list- many dozens- of men named as attending the funeral and the train trip is mentioned- it says - and I hadn't noticed this detail- " The remains were afterwards[after the service at my grandparents house in Ilkley] conveyed by train to Bradford."
In the Obit published in the same paper 4 days earlier it says" The funeral takes place at Scholemoor next Saturday".
So when it says train conyeying my grandfather's body to Bradford it may be loose use of terminology and Braford = Scholemoor.
What's the Bradford T & A please?
charlotte
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The Bradford T & A is the Telegraph and Argus. (The local Bradford paper)
Regards Brian
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Charlotte,
a question - did the 'many dozens of men' attend the funeral service or did they actually travel to Scholemoor ?
There was mention in an earlier post of the charges and who paid.
Where did your grandfather work ? perhaps his employer paid if he was in a senior position a partner perhaps.
Dave
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HI Dave,
Tthere are more that 5 dozen men mentioned in the account of the funeral--- there are a number of Alderman, Reps of the Bradford Soc. of Architects, Bradford School Board, Bradford Builders Assosc., Bradford Liberal Club, Ilkley Grammar School etc... I think they did go to the Cem. from the way the account is written.
My grandfather was an architect and had well established his own Bradford & Ilkley firm. He left decent amount of money and his wife was independently wealthy so money would not have been a factor.
There was a service held at the Hargreaves house in Ilkley before the train left- and the paper says "A large number of Mr Hargreaves ' personal friends and represtentatives of various public bodies with which he had been connected assembled at the station and accompanied the cortege to the cemetery."
Any comments?
charlotte
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Hi All
I am not familiar with Yorkshire train funerals but a useful book might be "Brookwood Necropolis Railway" by John Clarke ISBN 0853613753
if you can get it. Will answer many of the questions
Ray
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Hi Ray, Is Brookwood the Rookwood Cemetery in Sydney? I am familiar with that cem. There was a Necroplois Mortuary Chapel at the Cemetery into which the trains drew... and the train left from Central Station in the city of Sydney.
The trains don't run there now... don't know when this was discontinued- my guess would be when motor transport became more generally used.
Thanks for that reference- will see if I can get it on interlibrary loan- if it is in fact Rookwood.
charlotte
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Hi Charlotte,
No I'm afraid not, it's in the U.K., Brookwood is in Surrey and the trains ran from London. Had its own station there and special trains until it was bombed in the last war. Two stations in the cemetery grounds with waiting rooms (1st & 2nd class)and chapels.
I'm sure you would find the book very intersting if you can get hold of a copy.
Regards
Ray
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Hi Charlotte,
if you go to this site
http://www.bing.com/maps/
put Lidget Green into the Address search box -
Click on the cross to kill the address and enlarge the view.
Scholemoor cemetery is to the Left of Cemetery Road and North of Necropolis Road. Bring that area to the top center, go to Ariel view then zoom in a couple of clicks until you can see Old Corn Mill Lane at the bottom of the screen, to the Left of Beckside Road. The rail line ran to the North of the Lane.
You can then bring the Cemetery to the center of the screen and have a close up look in the Birds eye view
Dave
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Hi Dave and Ray,
Ray I'll see if I can get the book on interlibrary loan... funny that the names of the two cemeteries ars so close. What you describe sounds like it was in Sydney way back. Bit of a hoot to have different class waiting rooms for ush a train ::)
Dave, thanks for the url and the guidance how to get the best from the site I appreciate that and will look there after lunch- in Aus.
charlotte