RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: seabsy on Wednesday 01 July 09 22:35 BST (UK)
-
does anyone have information on Thomas Pope 1841 Hammersmith and his son Thomas Pope 1857 Marylebone. They were both photographers with the son travelling. I think that he was my great~grandmothers father.
-
Hi
Can you give some details of your great grandmother - name/age/birthplace and we can see if her details match to Thomas Pope
Which one was her father - senior or junior.
does anyone have information on Thomas Pope 1841 Hammersmith
Are you sure Thomas snr was born in 1841? That makes him 16 when Thomas jnr was born
-
sorry Thomas Pope was born in 1871. On my grandmothers birth certificate Thomas Pope father 21 High Street Wollaston a photographer. I found a Thomas Pope born in Marylebone who travelled with his brother.
-
Hi again
Can you give some details of your great grandmother - name/age/birthplace and we can see if her details match to Thomas Pope
Can we have your grandmothers full details please including her mothers name.
-
See previous post on the Worcestershire board for further information
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,388906.0.html
Regards
Valda
-
Thanks Valda - a lot of info on that link which will save time
From that post
There's a death at Stourbridge for a Thomas Pope Sept qtr 1898 age 46
That would make his birthyear around 1850/51 - not 1857
I had her father as Thomas Pope born in Marylebone in 1857.
Where did you get his birthplace as Marylebone from?
I think you need a copy of Ellen & Thomas's marriage cert - reference as per your previous post Sep 1885 Isle of Wight, (in Hampshire I assume)
2b 920
That will give his age and his fathers name and occupation which may make tracing easier
As there is no firm connection to London & Middlesex - I am going to ask Valda to consider merging the 2 posts to avoid any further duplication of info
-
Hi seasby and Carole
There does seem enough reason to continue to explore the Thomas Pope photographer link on the London and Middlesex board.
So the known children of Thomas and Ellen were
Births Dec 1885
Pope Thomas Harry O Stourbridge 6c 175
and then a big gap
Births Dec 1894
Pope Sarah Stourbridge 6c 175
and either
Births Mar 1897 Pope Florence Mary Stourbridge 6c 185
or
Births Dec 1897
Pope Florence Maria Stourbridge 6c 220
The 1885 marriage
Marriages Sep 1885
Osborne Ellen I. Wight 2b 920
Pope Thomas I. Wight 2b 920
took place at St Mary's Carisbrooke on the Isle of Wight. What was the name of Thomas' father and his occupation and Thomas' occupation on this marriage - both photographers?
You think there is a possible connection with this man?
1901 census RG13 52 folio 11
71 Rednall Terrace Hammersmith
Amy Hooper 33 Head Married Marylebone
Lucy Hooper 9 Daughter Hammersmith
John A Hooper 5 Son Hammersmith
William O Hooper 8 Son Hammersmith
Lionel Hooper 12 months Son Hammersmith
Thomas Pope 61 Boarder Married Photographer Hammersmith (born Kensington on the 1881 census and a photographer)
Marriages Sep 1889
Hooper Robert Fulham 1a 521
POPE Amy Olliff Fulham 1a 521
Does the O in Thomas Harry O's name stand for Oliff?
On the 1871 census RG10 66 folio 73
2 Oak Terrace Hammersmith Thomas senior is at that time a hawker. He does have a son called Thomas aged 14 and he was born in Marylebone.
Regards
Valda
-
Thomas senior's age on the 1901 census of 61, looks a good 10 years to low for him on previous censuses, and for his age at death.
Deaths Mar 1912
Pope Thomas 81 Fulham 1a 309
1881 census RG11 56 folio 130
Thomas was aged 52
In 1871 (reference already given) he was aged 41
1861 census RG9 83 folio 32
1 Park Street Marylebone
Thomas Pope 31 Head Married Musician Middlesex
Mary A Pope 27 Wife Married Brighton Sussex
Mary A Pope 7 Daughter Paddington
Thomas G Pope 4 Son Marylebone
William Pope 9 Months Son Marylebone
Births Jun 1856
POPE Thomas George Marylebone 1a 431
Regards
Valda
-
thanks for all the information . Its a mystery why my g-grandmother was abandoned and her mother had more children and I cannot find Thomas Pope on 1901 census only a Thomas Pope and his brother as travelling musicians.
-
In the 1911 census Thomas Pope senior was living at Hammersmith Workhouse and died in 1912.
-
Hi seasby
Do you actually know your great grandmother was 'abandoned'? You know on census night 1901 she was staying somewhere else and by 1911 when most girls her age were working, often away from home as servants, so was she. One census night isn't enough evidence for abandonment by her mother, but it may inidcate things were difficult for her.
Ellen gives her status on the 1901 census as a widow. She may very well have had further children but do all their birth certificates state their father was called Thomas? Widow maybe the status Ellen gave for propriety's sake on the 1901 census if and when her marriage broke down and with the gap between Thomas Harry Pope's birth and Sarah's being so large, it may have already broken down by the time of the 1891 census and before Sarah's birth. The census information indicates that, if this is the correct Thomas Pope.
1901 census RG13 4918 folio 100
46 Queesn Street Lydney Gloucestershire/Welsh boarder
Thomas Pope 44 boarder Single Marylebone London
Henry Pope 38 boarder Single Marylebone London
1891 census RG12 4642 folio 120
152 Red House Llanaber with Barmouth Merionethshire Wales
Thomas Pope 34 Visitor Single Photographer Marylebone London
Henry Pope 28 Visitor Single Photographer Marylebone London
Possibles for the deaths of Thomas and Henry
Deaths Dec 1906
Pope Henry 44 Ross 6a 317
Pope Thomas 49 Ross 6a 318
Interesting they both died so close together possibly at the same time since they have adjacent death registrations.
Ellen and her son Thomas may be difficult to find on the 1891 census because they may be living under a different surname from Pope.
What please does the O stand for in Thomas' junior's name? Is it Oliff?
Births Dec 1885
Pope Thomas Harry O Stourbridge 6c 175
Regards
Valda
-
Yes Sarah was a boarder and then went straight into service in Martley. Family story is that the father left and mother couldnt cope and abandoned her children. Thanks for all your help Vanda.
-
Hi seasby
Do you have a copy of Thomas' birth certificate?
Births Dec 1885
Pope Thomas Harry O Stourbridge 6c 175
If his name is Oliff it tends to support the fact that there is a connection to the Marylebone Popes since they too had Oliff as a middle name, as evidenced by Amy's middle name. There is also the photographic connection. Having a copy of the marriage certificate would also help prove it was this Thomas the son of a Thomas.
It doesn't however prove that Thomas Pope was the father of the subsequent children and your Sarah. If you are living in Wollaston what you tell the registrar in more distant Stourbridge when you register the child and what is strictly the truth are two different things. There were no checks in the system and if you walked in with a wedding ring on your finger and claimed the child was the legitimate child of your marriage the registrar was not going to question it. The 1891 census gives Thomas a long way from Wollaston, if he ever went there, and also with a status of single indicating he had left the marriage (divorce would be an expensive process and beyond ordinary peoples' means at the time) which may only lasted the time it took Ellen to become pregnant and marry when working away from home. She may have returned to Wollaston to give birth to Thomas Harry O without a husband if the marriage failed very quickly.
While what is said to a registrar in further away Stourbridge can be bluffed out, what is said to the local vicar in the parish you are living in isn't so easy since baptisms will take place in the local church in front of your friends and neighbours. Have you checked church baptisms to see if the children were baptised? I believe Old Swinford is the parish covering Wollaston.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/WOR/Oldswinford/index.html#ChurchRecords
The IGI coverage of the baptisms ceases in 1877.
Regards
Valda
-
I know this is an old post (and in completed lookups) but I am just replying to it as I have further information on this family which might be relevant to anyone that comes across it via a search (in case OP is not active still on rootschat).
From the military records of Thomas Pope who married Ellen Osborne in 1885 (detailed on military record W097-3668-096-001) he was born in Clifton, Bedfordshire (c.1853) so I believe him to be the brother of my great great grandfather Charles Henry Pope (see RG9/997 Clifton Rd, Clifton 1861 census)
His military record lists further children:
Thomas Henry ( as above)
Mary Ellen Pope (died prior to 1891)
Frederick Ephraim Pope bn 29 May 1889 in Dublin
Charles Stewart Pope and William MacKenzie Pope bn 15 Jan 1891 in Dublin
I haven't been able to follow the family very well other than the 1901/1911 census details given above, probably because they must have moved around a lot (and been out of the country for the 1891 census at least). I don't know how the photography profession listed on Sarah Pope's birth cert fits in with the military career of Thomas unless he took it up after retiring from the army.
With best regards,
Emily