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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: babzi on Monday 29 June 09 01:04 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I have just found my gg grandfathers death cert which says he died in South Dublin Union in the Infirmary and he had paralysis. This was 1875. His family was well off and I was surprised to find him here. Can anyone explain how he would have come to be in here? Would it have been because he couldn't be cared for at home by his wife?
Are there any records available to search where I could find his admission there?
I have searched online web sources which talk about the workhouses but nothing mentions why people were in the infirmary and how they came to be there?
Any help would be appreciated.
Babzi
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The South Dublin Union may have run the Infirmary separate to a Workhouse. I know that the Richmond Asylum, Infirmary & Workhouse was run by North Dublin Union as separate buildings in the same area.
does the cert list the workhouse as his place of death ?
from a google search (from an article about the 1916 rising) :
"..The South Dublin Union was in a strategic position as it overlooked Kingsbridge (Heuston) railway station to the north and controlled the route from Richmond Barracks and the Royal Hospital (military headquarters) leading to the city centre.
It consisted of a complex of buildings serving a variety of functions and included living quarters, an infirmary, a hospital and churches; it was laid out in streets, alleys and courtyards and was set in fifty acres of green space surrounded by a high stone wall. "
link to the article (pdf format) : http://www.nli.ie/1916/pdf/7.6.pdf
Shane
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Information on Dublin South Workhouse, etc. here (including map):
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/
On left side of page select Workhouse Locations- Irish Poor Law Unions- Co. Dublin then Dublin South.
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hi babzi ...
apparently there are surviving records for the South Dublin Union (mainly Admissions/Discharge Registers) and I may be able get some details for you if you wish..
Post (or PM if you prefer ) your gg grandfathers name, date of death and age plus any other details you know. I'll note the details and see if I can find anything ..
Shane
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Hi Shane,
His name was William Boyd we found a record for a William Boyd who died in SDU in 1875 in November. Our William worked as commission salesman and this was the profession listed for this William also.
His wife's name was Jane Boyd (nee Carrick). They were living in Frederick Street at this time. His death Cert say he died of parylisis.
They were a well to do family so if this is our William I am at a loss to understand how he got there.
He should have been born 1821 or so and if he had paralisis maybe that was why he couldn't be looked after at home.
I just need to know if this William Boyd is our William or not.
HOpe you can shed some light on this for me.
regards
Babzi
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not certain yet of the years where SDU records available but will have a look for William during our search.
I was watching a recording of the Chris Moyles 'Who do you think you are ?' last night and they found a record showing that one of his ancestors spent time in SDU.
Shane
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Sorry to "jump in" on your thread but I too have a person who died in The Union Workhouse - South Dublin and was wondering if perhaps shanew may indulge me and look it up as well please.
Her name was Mary ann Achilles and her DOD was 15/06/1875
Thanks
Yvonne
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I am not certain yet about the dates that the National Archives have available but will certainly keep an eye out for Mary.
dont think I've ever come across that surname before!
Shane
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I am not certain yet about the dates that the National Archives have available but will certainly keep an eye out for Mary.
dont think I've ever come across that surname before!
Shane
Could you please advise the dates of the South Dublin Workhouse for the early period. I am looking for Richard and Eleanor Brooks of Dublin (Richard was a weaver) their son John moved to Coventry c. 1828. I wondered whether Richard or Eleanor might have ended up in the workhouse. It has been difficult to trace them. Any help much appreciated.
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The South Dublin Union was officially founded in 1839, but there was a workhouse on the site before that.
see: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/DublinSouth/DublinSouth.shtml
I know there are gaps in the dates for the records and most are not indexed by name - so without a date of admittance or death it would be difficult to locate any details.
I will post back here when I work out more details on which dates records have survived for.
Shane
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Many thanks Shane. With little information it seems I may not find them.
I have always assumed they lived in the Liberties as they were weavers, but alas I do not know whcih parish (RC) Their son John Brooks[= Mary Ann Flood] was born in Dublin c. 1795. So the workhouse for his parents is a long shot.
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Dear Babzi,
You asked several questions but please be warned when you research the past sometimes you may discover uncomfortable facts.
Firstly,the book "Dublin Slums" by Jacinta Prunty isbn 0-7165-2538-0 contains a very interesting commentary on the early days of SDU together with a map of the premises showing the infirmary.
Secondly, for No.14 South Frederick Street the newspaper The Irish Times has 3 entries for the Boyds.On Page 1 Deaths for September 9th 1874 ::Alexander George (son of William and Jane Boyd) A Miss Boyd is shown as a prizewinner on Page 2 on December 5th,1874. Lastly, December 8th, 1875 shows a birth to a W.L.Boydon Page 1.
Several ancestors were medical men with PLU in Victorian days so I have a limited knowledge of their affairs.
Regards
Quaxer.
Q
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Hi Quaxer,
Thanks for your info. You have found me another child of William and Jane I didn't know they had.
The medical men PLU what does that mean? I'm not familiar with it.
I will look up the book on Dublin Slums. However the family had money and we think that William ended up in the infirmary due to his paralysis. Jane probably couldn't or wouldn't look after him.
I really need to find any records there are to see if the William Boyd who died in the SDU infirmary was our guy. I'm told there are good records in the archives but they are not available on line.
Any other help you give I would be very appreciative.
regards
Babzi
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PLU probably mean Poor Law Union.
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Hi
Just another question re Irish Times. How are you able to search? By name and address?
I was thinking of subscribing to an online subscription.
I have access to dublin journel newspaper but it does not seem to have as much as Irish Times.
regards
Babzi
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You can search the Irish Times Newspaper Archives by any keywords, surname, street etc.. the web address is http://www.irishtimes.com/search/archive.html
remember that not every family put their BMD notices in the Times..
Shane
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Hi Shane,
I'm doing that at the moment but it doesn't allow to look at the article only a heading. It says its 65 euros to subscribe for a month.
Do you know any other way to search this site and see the articles without paying this large cost?
Babzi
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the free search results just show a headline or extract - there are several subscription options, including a daily for €10 and weekly for €26
If you are subscribing I would recommend reading the search tips carefully.. also remember that many articles and BMD notices dont use first names, and could include something like Mr. A. Smith rather than a full name.
Shane
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Dear Babzi
Ihave just received your 2 or 3 messages.
Yes, PLU means Poor Law Union.Medical men in my jargon means fully qualified medical practitioners. On this subject I do not know what you know or what you really want to know about the subject. If you have a question please frame it very precisely as the organizers of this portal favour brevity. If I cannot answer a general question I can refer you to books etc .
THE Irish Times newspaper is available for a fee on the internet. Please note that the proprietors are registered as a charity. It must have been very expensive to put all the back issues on computer and regardless of whatever the position is as regards to copyright, It would not be fair or proper to undercut their position.
In answer to your question about finding items I have spent many years rebuildind the City records from 1859-Census Sunday 1901 utilising that newspaper. Every item I recorded is meaningful by itself but far more can be gained by examining the article in the newspaper itself. It is arranged in order of premises i.e. from No.1 Lower Abbey Street to No.58 York Street. I have under taken many large tasks in my lifetime but be assured this private venture was by far the largest. Does the road wind uphill all the way, Yes to the very end. It was one thing to transcribe in telegraphic form the entries it was another to sort out the confusion and chaos as regards addressesIf I had been alive at the time I'm sure that with the experience I could have been some help to the folks at Bletchley ParkRegards Quaxer
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Hi Quaxter,
I have been looking for my gg grandfather William Boyd and his family. I know he married Jane Carrick in 1851 in Drumcondra. Her father John McAuley Carrick had a glass manufacturing business in 5 Mary's Abbey. William had always said his business was Commercial Traveler or Comm Salesman. He was from Glasgow according to the marriage announcement in Dublin Freemans Journel.
I know he was alive in 1873 but Jane was a widow in 1884.
My sister found the death record for Nov 1875 for SDU in the infirmary when she was in Dublin earlier this year.
I would like to find out anything I can on William Boyd. I know his father was David Boyd it was on the marriage cert. But I know nothing else.
Do you know anything of this man and his family or background? When you mentioned medical men did you mean something to do with his family?
Did you mean when you search on the Irish Times you can search by an address? Or were you refering to your own records?
The private project you are working on is it published?
regards
Babzi
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Dear Babzi
Thanks for yours of even date.
The reference to medical men is to my ancestors who worked for the PLU from 1840-1910 and I made the reference to show that I had some knowledge of the system. I know that some records for SDU still exist as the book I mentioned utilized the Guardians Minute Books. What you should sight is the Admissions Register which should be with the other vols. your sister saw. Re the Irish Times as I wrote before it is a private venture and currently not available to the public. Further at the moment I reuire at least a street name as it is arranged in alpha street order. Please reread my previous remarks about the proprietors and availability.
I have no I.T. entries for No.5 St Mary's Abbey but have found an entry in Shaw's Directory for 1850 in the index which reads:
Carrick John 5Mary's Abbey Residence Pearmount,Donnycarney
In the street entry the premises are described as a glass warehouse.RegardsQuaxer
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Dear Babzi
I'm not a computer man but when I sent you the immediate previous I could not fit any more in the reply box. Are messages limited in size ? If so limit your questions to just one item and send me more messages each with its own unique number so that I can refer to them easily.
Did you ever think about a will ?intestacy for William Boyd? I'll look in some of my other research papers and come back with an idea Note however that 1/3million wills were destroyed in the explosion and fire in the Four Courts in 1922 Your thoughts please.
Regards
Quaxer
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Hi Quaxer,
I'm not sure about a limit. I've never had any trouble sending what amount of words I needed.
I had a lady search for a Will/or index for William without success. However I don't know how through they were.
I have searched Scotlands People and haven't found a wiil there either. After Jane and William got married they had a number of their early children born in glasgow at 29 John Street Glasgow.
The addresses I know they lived at in Dublin were.
5 mary's Abbey Dublin 1851
Sackville Gardens 1869
14 South Frederick Street from 1872
29 St Clair's Terrace Cloncliffe Road 1884
34 Carlingford Road 1886
Babzi
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Hi Quaxer,
I had someone check the buriels in Mt Jerome for our family as we knew John McAuley Carrick was buried there. He died in 1861 Jan.
they found quite a lot of family buried in a few graves and have transcribed the details of each buriel record.
There was a Frances Boyd 12 Jervis Street who died in childbirth at 24 yrs informant was Robert Boyd Jnr buried in the Carrick grave and also then a son Robert Francis Boyd 12yrs of 97 Capel Street informant John Leetch.
We know there was a William and Robert Boyd at 97 Capel Street who were undertakers and cabinet makers there from 1840's but we never thought this William Boyd was ours.
But this Robert and Frances Boyd buried in John Carricks grave must mean there is a connection?
Any clues?
Babzi
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Babzi
Re your first message I regret I have nothing here to help on this matter
Re No.2 a short history of Mount Jerome shows that graves could be purchased to permit one interment and they could be reopened by family or representatives until filled. So it is most likely that there is a very close connection between those buried in those graves unless an error was made .
Please supply dates for Robert Francis and Frances
Quaxer
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Hi Quaxer,
Frances Boyd
b. about 1817, d. 1841
address at death 12 Jervis St.
age cause of death 24 years, in childbirth
grave number date of buriel grave 6-34 6 April 1841
Grant:249 Year-no.: 169
Informant: Robert Boyd, Junior
Robert Francis Boyd
B. 1840 d. 1852 B.
address at death 97 Capel St.
age cause of death 12 years
grave number date of buriel grave 6-34 23 October 1852Year-no.: 603 Informant: John Leetch 97 Capel St.
Chapelizod
In this grave 6-34 there are 8 people buried between years 1839 to 1856. 2 infants, 2 under age of 4 yrs, 1 teenager and 3 adults. There Carrick, Boyd, Leetch McAuley buried there.
I know the Carrick Leetch McAuley connection but not the Boyd connection to them.
Babzi
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Babzi
From over 30 years' experience of looking at Irish records some apparently intractable problems are worked out down the road.
Shaw's Directory for 1850 shows William Boyd (Builder ) at No.97 Capel Street but no Leetch in the Index at all.
8 Remains in one grave is considerable but bear in mind that the 4 minors could have been placed on one level and there will always be settlement of the earth.
Regards Quaxer
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Hi Shane,
His name was William Boyd we found a record for a William Boyd who died in SDU in 1875 in November. Our William worked as commission salesman and this was the profession listed for this William also.
His wife's name was Jane Boyd (nee Carrick). They were living in Frederick Street at this time. His death Cert say he died of parylisis.
They were a well to do family so if this is our William I am at a loss to understand how he got there.
He should have been born 1821 or so and if he had paralisis maybe that was why he couldn't be looked after at home.
I just need to know if this William Boyd is our William or not.
HOpe you can shed some light on this for me.
regards
Babzi
some details from the S.D.U. Admissions and Discharge register no. 42 - which would seem to confirm that he is your William , only very basic Information I'm afraid as nothing was noted in the 'Observations when admitted' section.
I will pm you the details.
p.s. sorry Yvonne - didn't get time to look for any details on Mary ann.
Shane
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NO problems Shane....
Please keep me in mind though if you ever have the opportunity again :-)
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Hi there, I recently found an ancestor of mine had died in the poorhouse in Glasgow and like you was a bit surprised because her family were wealthy. Also my grandfather by that time was working and bringing home a decent wage.
Like your ancestor she had a form of paralyses on one side (looks like the result of a stroke). I was told by a couple of sources that the poorhouses were often the forerunners of NHS hospitals (in Scotland at least). I think if someone required a high level of ongoing care often these were the places that took responsibility for them. Doesn't always mean they were in abject poverty as I understand it.
Maggie
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Hi again..... I just found a notation of another Achilles ancestor who also died at the The Union Workhouse South. Her name was ANNE ACHILLES and she died 1st October 1885 aged around 40. Maiden name was Anne Carolan.
Information on both if anyone gets the opportunity would be great. Thank you
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If I could join in here!
My grandmother's brother Edward Boshell died in the Workhouse S.D.U. 22nd August 1897.
He was aged 22. His address was 28, Cork St.
Cause of death was 'Heart disease many years, certified.'
The informant was A. Jessop.
He was buried as Edward Dowzard in Mount Jerome.
His mother's maiden name was Dowzard.
This has puzzled me for some time.
The entry in the family bible is as Edward Boshell.
Any thoughts?
Kooky
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That does sound a bit unusual. The Mt. Jerome people kept meticulous records but errors did creep in. When you say "He was buried as Edward Dowzard in Mount Jerome", what are you basing this on - did you look up the index/registries (there are 3 separate ones)? Also, I was informed that some of the records were damaged by fire and had to be transcribed, and that this could have led to the occasional inaccuracy (I found a couple myself when doing research).
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I have the information from Mount Jerome. They sent me a plan of the graveyard and a list of the people in the grave. They were my gt gt gr parents Edward and Anne Dowzard, Lizzie Dowzard, their daughter, sister of my gt gr mother and the owner of the grave, and Edward Dowzard.
He died 22nd August 1897 aged 22, and was living at 28, Cork St..
The death details of Edward Boshell, from the Gro, are exactly the same.
There is no death record of an Edward Dowzard at this time.
I surmise, and I know I shouldn't, that the Dowzards had fallen out with the Boshells when John Boshell had another daughter about 3 years after the death of his wife Susan nee Dowzard.
This daughter mentions the death in her bible, as 'Ned' 22nd August 1897.
Kooky
Sorry to be so lengthy!
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I have the information from Mount Jerome. They sent me a plan of the graveyard and a list of the people in the grave.
I would guess that this is quite simply a mistake on the part of the Mt. Jerome people--his name was Boshell and the GRO has Boshell. I came across one similar mistake and another mistake involving the location of a grave while researching the Mount Jerome registries, and two others in Glasnevin cemetery, that were solely due to human error. As I said, there are 3 separate indexes/registries, and it appears that you received the information from just one of them. It would be interesting to compare this information with the information in the other two, the main one being the one containing the entry for his death.
BTW, my gt gt gr parents and other relations, Farrells and Gregans, came from 23 Cork St., where they kept a dairy for a long time up to about 1890.
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Hohenloh,
I am revisiting my Boshell/Dowzards and looking at your reply wonder if you could explain to me what you meant by '3 separate indexes/registries.
I have a copy of the death registration which was Boshell.
I found the death in the register in the search room,which was Boshell.
What is the third one?
Kooky
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The index of perpetuities, assuming that this is a family plot and was used for several burials. This index should correspond with the other two, but again inaccuracies can creep in due to human error - I have discovered one so far.
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The index of perpetuities, presumably is kept at Mount Jerome?
Do you think that an error was made when the entries were written at the cemetery?
How can this be checked?
Kooky
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I'm afraid I couldn't say whether an error has been made in your case until I looked at all the data, and I'm a bit pushed for time at the moment. I think I've said all I can, based on what I've seen, at the moment.
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Thank you anyway!
Kooky
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Having been through this thread, I am not sure if the South Dublin Records would tell me anything in what I am after
One of Casement's Irish Brigade men, a Daniel Murphy, died here in 1926. The snippet I have on him is
Death of Daniel Murphy in Dublin South, death registered Apr - Jun 1926, Estimated Birth Year: 1875, Age (at Death): 51 Volume: 2, Page : 348. Keogh believes that this man died in St James St Workhouse, Dublin. Buried in a paupers grave according to Keogh
I have had a great deal of difficulty in tracing who this chap on whom I can get little real information and this is all I have (http://www.irishbrigade.eu/recruits/murphy-d.html),and this bit about his death in the South Dublin Union is about the only real lead I have on him. And with a name like Daniel Murphy one needs concrete facts to dig with!
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Hi All,
I am new to the site but a few months into my research. I have located a few family graves in Mount Jerome but i wondered what happened to my great grandfather 's brother. Mount Jerome have located him in a unmarked grave and said he died in the dublin union. I have the following info from Mt Jerome:
"John Thomas Moloney died 28/09/1944 aged 67 cause of death heart failure died in Dublin Union from heart failure buried in grave number A49-321 this a common grave with no marker whatsoever"
I suppose i am wondering how he ended up at the dublin union and why he wasnt buried with the rest of the family(we have three graves). Does anyone have info on dublin union etc?
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Hi everyone,
I'd be so grateful for any help with a South Dublin Union record if anyone has access to them. My g-g-grandfather Michael Neary died there in 1891 aged 47. I often wondered how he died so young. Any help on this is much appreciated.
Thank you.
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Do you have a death cert for Michael ?
This should show place, date and cause of death..
These look are the possible Index details if you need to order a research cert :
name: Michael Neary
Registration district: Dublin South
Event type: Death
Quarter and year: Jul-Sep 1891
Age: 47 (est. year of birth 1844)
Volume : 2 / Page: 436
see : Ordering Certs from GRO Roscommon (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433040.0.html)
Details included on a Death Cert (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433043.0.html)
Shane
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not sure of your location, but if you are based in or near Dublin then you can check out the S.D.U records in the National Archives.
The admission books usually include just the date of death for inmates .. but the death cert should show a bit more.
Shane
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Hi Shane, thank you for your reply! Yes it's on my agenda to take a trip into the GRO for a copy of his death cert as soon as I can. Would you know if the South Dublin Union records would give details of other family members or where he lived at the time etc?
Thanks a lot!
Oh just saw your other post there. I will take a trip in to the National Archives also. Thanks so much!
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I've seen home addresses in the records, but dont think there were references to other family in any admission book entries that I've looked at. If other family were in the workhouse at the same time they would probably be listed together.
Shane
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Looking forward to doing a bit of digging. You've been a great help! Thanks Shane :)
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Hello,
My grandmother always stated that she was born on James' Street in Dublin, but I sent away for 11 separate birth possibilities - all of which were not her so I was beginning to doubt her story until I found the Workhouse located on James' Street. My grandmother's father is later found in a poor house in Birmingham, England, so this appears to be a huge possibility of the place my gradmother was born.
I am hoping someone could look up my grandmother and her family as I would love to break this brick wall!! LOL.
My grandmother was:
BRIDGET KATHLEEN O'HANLON (HANLON) b. October 1904.
Her father was:
JOHN JOSEPH O'HANLON (HANLON) b. ABT 1875
Her mother was:
AGNES LEAHY
Any help would be greatly appreciated!!! If the entries are in fact listed alphabetically, if there are other O'HANLON (HANLON'S) as well, I would like to see if Bridget's grandfather; FRANCIS and a possible ANNIE- an elusive sister of BRIDGET's were there as well.
Thank you,
Debbie
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Have you seen the family tree on Ancestry? It mentions the 3 people you did.
Bridget died in Canada?
What exactly are you wanting us to look up?
As yet I have been unable to locate Bridget in the 1911 Dublin Census.
Kooky
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I would like a lookup of the people in the Workhouse around the time of Bridget's birth as I cannot locate them either on any of the 1911 census' and cannot find a birth certifcate for Bridget throughout Ireland or England.
I am hoping she was born in the Workhouse so I will have a starting point.
Debbie
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I am almost certain that the workhouse would have been enumerated in a census. Maybe someone with more knowledge could enlighten you on this. :-\
Kooky