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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Mr. MIGKY on Saturday 27 June 09 14:51 BST (UK)
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Hi i think i need a sort of scavenger hunt on this man?
Name: Leonard Madden born Sept 1/4 1889 Salford.
Parents: William Patrick Madden & Catherine Leonard.
Catherine died 1896 and William remarried to a Mary Duffy later that same year. MANCESTHER
He had two sister Catherine & Mary Ann Madden.
I have him & his parents on the 1891 & 1901 census. MANCHESTER
I also found him in 1911 living in THE IMPERIAL MEN'S HOME LODGING HOUSE,1 NAIL STREET ROCHDALE ROAD MANCHESTER. His occupation at the time was "NEWSVENDOR" The home was for men who were down and out on there luck. They offered men a bed and some sort of work, chopping fire wood , selling newspaper and such work.
His sister later married and is living in Heelis street, Collyhurst 1912 which is just a couple of streets from where Leonard Madden is in the mens lodging house at that time.
He is still at the mens lodging house when he joins the army in 1915. He is discharged not long after as been unsuitable to be coming an officiant soldier ( this could well mean he was unfit, flat feet or poor eye sight or even rickets. It was early days in ww1 and they were picky at first but later on in the war would take anyone) His sister now married waslisted as next of kin but named as Kathleen & not Catherine but she was known by both names.
That is the last trace of Leonard Madden i have. I have checked out for any marriages and death but with no luck. The only ones i could find is for him marring a Elsie HAMMERSLEY in 1925 Oldham and a death for Leonard Madden 1919 Blackburn , both of these are not the Leonard Madden i am looking for.
He seems to have dropped of the planet. I can find no trace of him?Any help greatfully received.
Migky ;)
ALL IN RED LATER EDITED
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Hi Migky
looks like clutching at straws, but he isn't on CWGC or the medal cards reenlised is he? Possibly separate record - I know as you said they were fussy early on, but some men who were turned down were conscripted, later, fit or not.
Or passenger lists leaving Britain?
Electoral registers?
Just a thought!
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi Emms, thanks for the reply but i have check as much as i can of the list you suggested a long time back with no luck i am afraid.
As for the Electoral registers? You really don't stand much of a chance trying to find some one with out an address. There are none on line and so by checking them in Manchester central library would take for ever. They are listed in order of streets and not by persons name. But thanks any way.
Migky ;)
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Hi Migky
Yes, I'd forgotten, the problem you'd have in somewhere as big as Manchester..That's where we score woith being in a smaller town. Tne layout seems to vary too, so it's not too bad to look at.
I'd forgotten, I once emailed them for a look-up even with an address, ad because there were three streets with the same name, I had to choose one, even though two of them were two ends of the same street!
So I dodn't get my info!
Good luck anyway!
Emms
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Mig on findmypast there is a William Maden born manchester listed as died in the Great War 1914-1919 says he residence in hulme. could he have reenlisted?
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Hi MIGKY,
did you follow up the Blackburn death? He is the right age and I can't see another Leonard Madden in censuses or births :-\
heywood
sorry- I can see that you say he isn't the one you need ::)
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Hi Migky
I'd love us to get to the bottom of this one for you.
Can I ask if you know where your Leonard Madden came from?
I'm only asking because before I read any of your extra information, as soon as I saw your names, Madden, Leonard and Duffy, my immediate reaction was Irish, in Rochdale area, and the particular tribe I'm thinking of had connections in Blackburn, Burnley and other towns further inland. Some also went to Manchester.
I had some grave entries for Heywoood and these names featured on the little area plan for those close by.
I never got to the bottom of it. There were always loads of them together and they intermarried. I did find one Madden marriage in St Patrick's RC Rochdale - goodness knows where I put it!
Mainly though, I wondered if with him being so down on his luck, might he have gone back to where he had earlier connections. Then the age on the Blackburn death fitted so well. It would be where he died, not necessarily where he was living.
I guess it sounds out of the question, though.
I do have some Maddens alive in 1953, but not Leonard. I could send the list if it kight give any clues.
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi Migky
I hardly dare say this, but there are only five Leonard Maddens on the 1911 Census. The other four are ten years old and younger. So we're lacking another Leonard to die in Blackburn.
Of course another one could have come ovewr from Ireland or down from Scotland in the next few years.
Interestingly, there is a ten year old in Oldham of the right name, so he could account for your marriage and rule out your Leonard from that.
That leaves a five year old in Chorton, a four year old in Huddersfield and a three year old in Lambeth.
Of course I haven't checked all spellings.
Just a thought!
Emms
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PS No Leonard Maddens in Ireland in 1911 so far.
All the counties are covered but they have still to add any entries submitted in the Irish language, and a few other bits.
It's worth a look for anyone reading with ancestors in Lancashire as so many had links to Ireland. It's all free - search, results, scans of originals and trawling families by streets!
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/
Best wishes
Emms
Modified: Some counties are missing: See Argadowey's update today - so Leonard Madden could be hiding.!
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,395632.0.html
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Just to clear up a few things and people will not get confused as i did at first ;D
Last i can find Leonard Madden was his very short army service record Oct 1915. Leonard Madden , 7th Manchester regiment, Service number 4320. He is residing at The imperial men home, 1 Nail street, Pilling street Manchester. This is the same address i found him on the 1911 census.
This is my leonard Madden
Births Sep 1889
Madden Leonard Salford 8d 89
now i found two deaths but unsure if they are the same one?
1919 age 30
MADDEN Leonard 30 Billington Preston B/7/24
& this one.
Deaths Mar 1919
Madden Leonard 30 Blackburn 8e 555
and 2 marriages for a Leonard Madden.
MADDEN Leonard HAMMERSLEY Elsie Oldham Register Office or Registrar Attended Oldham 1925
MADDEN Leonard SILCOCK May Failsworth, St. John the Evangelist Oldham 1936
I don't mind paying for certificates if i know they are mine but i wonn't buy them on the off chance they are. My Leonard Madden was born Salford and as far as i know has never been to Ireland.
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Hi,
I think those two deaths are the same - when I looked it up I found Billington then as you say Blackburn on Free BMD. Genuki says Blackburn Register Office covers Billington.
I suppose it is that the age is the same for that Leonard Madden. As Emms says, the names strike you as all Irish descent and there could well be another Leonard turning up later- who knows?
Well there must be as there are two marriages ::) Although they could technically be the same person.
There is a birth 1905 in Ardwick and 1 living in Oldham who is 10 yrs old in 1911- he could be the one who marries in 1925 and even 1936.
Also Madden could be open to several spelling errors.
It's a pity they don't give a church for a funeral as they do for some marriages on Lancashire Free BMD ;D
At the moment I am strongly in favour of the chap in Blackburn but ..why there?
good luck
heywood
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Ta Heywood,Emms & Goldy for taking the time to search for him.
I am struggling to see this man move far from Collyhurst/Ancoats are of Manchester. His sister is just two streets away in 1911 and maybe ten streets by 1915. The family name is of Irish decent but i don't think they traveled to Ireland( What we call Skint member/no money) They lived in the really poor part around Angle Meadows and later return there when thing turned bad for one member in 1930's.
I am only on year five of looking for him and one of his sisters, so early days yet ::)
What makes it a little more confusing is i have baptism records from st. Patricks there local parish with other family Madden's on plus other Madden families i can not make a connection with.
Don't you just hate common names ;D
Thanks anyway every one, will put him and his sister on my " Must find one day " list.
Migky ;)
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No, I wouldn't have thought he would have gone to Ireland- can't imagine anyone did at that time.
As you say, fairly common name I suppose.
You never know though he could have travelled for work and if in poor condition- died early.
Isn't it frustrating and so easy to make a little scenario up.
If they were Catholic, there may be a funeral record at the local Catholic church in Billington area - (big assumption but all the Maddens I know are Catholic ;))
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Hi Heywood , there were Roman catholics.
Migky ;)
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Hi Migky, Heywood.
Stroke of genius, Heywood!
I was thinking Catholic again because all the ones I've come across were. But I never thought of looking it up because there would be so many places in Manchester, but of coure, what you've picked up on, if he did have a funeral in Billington, the choice of RC churches is much narrower!
Billington St Mary? No burials in any of the Blackburn ones in LRO list, but maybe somewhere else? Blackburn papers?
What I was thinking was this was not long after the end of the war. My grabndfather wasn't even home at this stage. Even if he was refused by the military, he would quite likely have been given war work, and the country was still in a state. There would be a shortage of men by 1919.
He may well have been sent away from home, to work and this wouldn't reaslly have been far. My Grandfather's sister was sent to the area north west of there having been born in Salford as a land girl.
Good hunting, Migky
Best wishes
Emms :) :) :)
Edited: PS I wonder where the records for War Work went? Who administered it? ???
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I am also struggling to find any trace of Leonard's sister ( Mary Ann Madden born 1887 Salford ) after the 1901 census, plus there father ( William Madden born 1855 Maccelfield Cheshire ) after 1901 in Manchester. RG13/3755
I know he would be alive after 1912 as it would have him as deceased on his other daughters wedding certificate.
Migky ;)
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Hi migky,
I haven't checked but he wouldn't necessarily be named as deceased in my experience.
Who were the witnesses to that wedding? Not a Mary A ...?
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Hi Migky
I have marriage certs. where the father was not marked as deceased, even though they were. Depends how the question was asked... What is the name of your father? ... They may not have asked if he was deceased!
If that is the case, the death of William Madden in Mcr. in 1903 is the right age. (48)
I have one of my lot marry a John Madden in 1888. They lived in Ancoats. Don't see any connection yet though. His father was William but a bit older than yours.
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Catherine Madden married (sister to Leonard and Mary Ann, daughter of William Madden) in 1912 Manchester. Her husband put his father as deceased, so i would have expected Catherine to have done the same if her father was dead?
I did check out the death of William Madden in Mcr. in 1903 is the right age. (48) but i am not going to rush in and buy that death certificate just yet. I would sooner find maybe Leonard or Mary Ann's marriages around the Ancoats/Collyhurst are first.
I did spend a few pounds on the Mary Ann Madden who married an Arthur A Smith in Manchester 1909 but this turned out to be the wrong lady ( with a name like smith i was a little happy in some ways it wasn't her ) It also seem it was not the Mary Ann who married a John Ferns Oct 1912 Manchester.
Migky ;)
Ps please feel free to send me any suggestions. I will check them out but as i have spent so much up to now on wrong people , i will hold off buying any more certificates until i can prove 99% they are the correct one.
Oh! Amram My Madden's might turn out to be a larger family than i thought as i only know a little about William who cam from Macclefirld but i think he could well have had brothers and sisters who came to manchester also?
I have some records on other Madden's around Manchester if i can help you ?
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Hi Migky,
I can understand fully your reluctance to spend money on a 'maybe' possibility.
It does seem odd that Catherine would not put her father as deceased your right.
Lots of wonderings here ;)
Why would Leonard put Catherine as next of kin and not his father or older sister?
Do you have Catherine in 1911? I saw a 'Katry' Madden (or similar) but no Maddens with her, I don't think. (am still trying to work out searches in 1911 census).
There is a George Corry/Mary A Madden marriage in 1905 and checking 1901 there is a suitable George- the couple would be very young though.
1911 George seems to be there but not with a Mary A ::)
Have just found a death for Mary Ann Corry 22 yrs in 1907 -Prestwich registration district so that would fit and explain things but all supposition :-\
There are a few Mary Madden marriages too- and if Mary Duffy married again that would also be a help. However, when she married William, her previous name of Donnelly is shown on Lancashire BMD so you would imagine that if she remarried again one or other of her previous names would show on the marriage list- but maybe not ???
Do you know if both William and his daughter Catherine married in the same church? If they had a 'family' church then perhaps, if he died, and if that was Mary Ann's marriage to George Corry or anyone else for that matter, they would also take place in the same church.
I think you already mentioned St Patrick's Livesey Street?
Well that's my contribution to the puzzle at the moment ;)
heywood
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Hi Heywood, thanks for your contribution to the puzzle ;D
but just because i have not shown you the box cover, dose not mean you can leave the puzzle once you have made a start on it ;D
1) I have the full original copies of Leonard on the 1911.
2) Also the same for Catherine ( Transcribed as Katry, trust our friends in Asia for this)
3) Catherine married in ST. Phillip's R.C. church,Bradford road.
4) Murphy and Flood people from the 1911 with Catherine(Katry) are witness's at her marriage.
4) William Madden married Catherine Leonard 1886 St Peter's R.C. church, Broughton, Salford.
5) Catherine Madden nee Leonard died Feb 1896.
6) William remarried to a Mary Duffy nee Donnelly ( widow)May 1896 St William's R.C. church, Manchester.
7) I think Leonard Madden put his sister down as next of kin on his short ww1 service record as she only lived two streets away? Maybe?
8.) I have not discounted the George Corry marriage, just put it on hold as they would be very young.
Migky ;)
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so much for St Patrick's Livesey Street - where did that come from ??? Perhaps another rootschat search ;)
Not heard of St Phillip's and can only see one mentioned in Butler Street area- not Catholic but I haven't got that much knowledge of the area really. Similarly with a St William's - not St Wilfred's, Hulme?
So my theory of us trying to search local churches for free :o :o :o isn't going to work. :(
Have to go now - dinner to organise and cook.
heywood
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That's it Heywood, you go and cook lunch. You will need to build your strength up for this up hill slog ;D
Migky ;)
(http://i28.tinypic.com/335ft43.gif)
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Not heard of St Phillip's and can only see one mentioned in Butler Street area- not Catholic but I haven't got that much knowledge of the area really. Similarly with a St William's - not St Wilfred's, Hulme?
heywood
OPS sorry, st. Phillip's was C-of-E Doh!
I should have remembered as religion caused a bit of a rift between Catherine and her husband.
CLICK 4 ST. PHILLIP's (http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Bradford/StPhilip.shtml)
ST. William's
CLICK 4 ST. WILLIAM's (http://www.genuki.org.uk/cgi-bin/churches?CCC=LAN,GR=111,FT=Angel%20Meadow%20St%20William%20Simpson%20St%20Roman%20Catholic)
Migky ;)
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That's it Heywood, you go and cook lunch. You will need to build your strength up for this up hill slog ;D
Migky ;)
(http://i28.tinypic.com/335ft43.gif)
How selfish am I ? ;D It's begun now so I can have a bit of free time before the rest of the starving crowd arrive ::)
That's why I've not heard of St William's- closed before I was born :o Heard of Angel Meadow though. So not sure now of a direction.
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Sending you a section of map for where things are.
With differant colours on for churches and where family lived.
1) Blue is ST. Williams Angel Meadows Ancoats
2) Red is ST. Phillip's Bradford road Collyhurst
3) Purple is Nail street last known address for Leonard
4) Ridgway stree is address of Catherine 1911
They did live all round those areas.
Migky ;)
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Thanks for the map -
I always think of Ancoats as right hand side of Oldham Road as you leave Manchester.
Bradford Road, I think of as Beswick area
Angel Meadows, roughly the same area - I tended to think it was slightly more towards Cheetham Hill Road- a bit where they are building all those flats near to MEN arena but near enough to the part which is actually on the map. (I went to college near the Ducie Arms and I recall a lecturer telling us about Angel Meadow.
Doesn't help with the search though - the death of William and possible marriage and death of Mary Ann do fit in with the area so perhaps if you win the lottery the certificates may be possible one day!
Just had a look at Manchester Archives - St William's is not available re burials :( nor is St Michael's :(
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Up date to this thread*
I now have a wedding certificate for a Leonard Madden to an Elsie HAMMERSLEY May 1925 Oldham but sadly this is not my man and has the wrong age & Father.
I also have a wedding certificate for a Mary Ann Madden to a John Ferns March 1913 Manchester, but once again this turns out to be the wrong Mary Ann Madden, who should have been sister to Leonard. She is also wrong age and wrong fathers name .
Migky ;)
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Hi again,
that's a pity
Looking back over this thread and trying to recall, it looks as though I was favouring a marriage to a George Corry for Mary Ann and the death of Leonard in Blackburn so I can't thinl go anything else to suggest. :(
sorry
heywood
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Mary Ann Madden who Married George Corry 1905 Manchester 20 years old at the time of getting married.
She died just two years later in may 1907 living at 3 Kirby street Ancoats aged 22.
She is buried in Phillips park with other Madden members who are not related to the Mary Ann Madden i am looking for .
Once i find out what happend to Leonard and Mary Ann Madden, my quest has finished and have done what i set out to find. I am not looking to trace any further back i have all that and happy with what i have found, just these two need finding.
So my offer is to any one who can find what really happend to there two is. If you can find and prove to me what happend to them , you are welcome to ever original family history cd i own. There are a few Original directories/Army cd's & Map you are welcome to.
Migky ;)
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I wish you luck Migky
It is so frustrating.
Perhaps you should do this as a separate thread with the Madden name and link this to it so that you don't have to go through all this again.
heywood :D
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Hi Mig,
There is another marriage for a Leonard Madden, I don't think its been mentioned yet?
March 1939 Manchester south vol 8d page 57
Leonard Madden to Ellen Garvey
There have been a lot of new marriages added to free bmds recently so it might not have shown up before.
Manchester South could be Ardwick or somewhere like that, quite near Collyhurst. If it was him he'd be getting on a bit in years - then again my auntie Annie married first time at 59 :D so it does happen.
But how to persuade you to pay out another £7 for a certificate on the offchance? Mmm.. that's a tricky one
:) Barbara
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Hi Migky
I'm sorry it turned out to be the wrong one. I'll have to read all this again - probably with my thinking cap on a bit better in the morning!
I hope we find them for you!
Best wishes
Emms :)
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Hi Mig,
There is another marriage for a Leonard Madden, I don't think its been mentioned yet?
March 1939 Manchester south vol 8d page 57
Leonard Madden to Ellen Garvey
There have been a lot of new marriages added to free bmds recently so it might not have shown up before.
Manchester South could be Ardwick or somewhere like that, quite near Collyhurst. If it was him he'd be getting on a bit in years - then again my auntie Annie married first time at 59 :D so it does happen.
But how to persuade you to pay out another £7 for a certificate on the offchance? Mmm.. that's a tricky one
:) Barbara
Well Barbara, it looks like i might have to go with that marriage after all. I can see nothing more that fits. I wonder why i can't find his death either?
I see no one took me up on the offer on page 2 either. Oh! well back to the drawing board.
Migky ;)
Note*
The marriage between a Leonard Madden & a May Silcock Ashton Dec 1/4 1936
I don't think is my man as there is a Leonard Madden Born Ashton Sept 1/4 1900.I suspect that been the one who married 1936
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So my offer is to any one who can find what really happend to there two is. If you can find and prove to me what happend to them , you are welcome to ever original family history cd i own. There are a few Original directories/Army cd's & Map you are welcome to.
Migky ;)
Solved, they died - can I have your collection now LOL!!!!!!!!!! ;D
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Hi Migky,
Im not after the offer ;) and although this is similar to MancsMan - it's not in the same vein ::)
I know you have discounted the main contenders by some means or other, but there is still the death of Leonard Madden in Billington/Blackburn - same age :-\ to consider.
I know you would think- why there... but then again- why not?
Lancashire BMD has the death as Billington sub-district.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/cgi-bin/churches?CCC=LAN,GR=SD726358,DIST=3,PLACE=Billington has local churches but it may be difficult to get funeral records and the certificate may be the only way forward.
Having said that, that in itself may not tell you much: occupation , address and informant.
best wishes
heywood
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Migky, This suggestion will be absolutely no use in finding Leonard, but it may explain why you can't find him. Could Leonard have slipped so far down the greasy pole of hard luck and poverty that he died alone and unmissed and is just recorded as "Unknown male". Freebmd has perhaps 5 or 6 unknown middle-aged male deaths registered in the Manchester area each year from 1911 on. Not a very happy prospect, I'm sorry to say. :(
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Hi Alpinecottage, thanks for your input. I suppose it is a possibility, but with two sisters, one and possibly two brother in-laws, a father, a step mother and possibly many other family members all in the same area for many years i think they would have at least know when there kin had died?
I have him alive 1915, when he joined up to do his bit in the first world war, but unfortunately he was deemed as unfit to becoming a efficient soldier. This could mead anything from flat feet to rickets? He could well have then been asked to work for the war effort in some other capacity, i don't know? His short service records is on-line.
I will at some point get the death certificate for the Leonard who died in Billington/Blackburn, but i am sure i checked into this man many years back and think he was born in/around that area? Also as i don't think a death certificate would confirm he was mine 100% either was another reason for holding off buying it.
Thanks again.
Migky ;)
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I will at some point get the death certificate for the Leonard who died in Billington/Blackburn, but i am sure i checked into this man many years back and think he was born in/around that area? Also as i don't think a death certificate would confirm he was mine 100% either was another reason for holding off buying it.
Thanks again.
Migky ;)
Looking at BMD's, there isn't another Leonard born around that time- however that doesn't take into account mispellings, mistranscriptions, changes of name or immigration ;)
I do agree with you too, Migky, about the lack of confirmation in a death certificate... but... :-\
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which bmd are you looking at as not all are complete, including the main paid website ones.
Migky ;)
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Im only looking at Free BMD and Lancashire for any Leonard Maddens that may fit. I'm not going to search through quarters and years. ::)
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Hi Heywood, I have posted a few pics of St Williams, RC Church in Simpson St, Angel Meadow on Facebook. You may recognise someone on them.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=6581385&id=792823064
Cheers, Rik.
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Thankyou :) Its Migky who is looking though- I just try to help - (sometimes) ::)
best wishes
heywood
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Ooops, new to this site. Will Migky be able to view my post?
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Yes, once you have posted - you get notification. Well I do anyway. I think you have to opt for it and then you can decline future notifications for certain posts if you want.
That sounds really complicated but it's nto adn you'll soon get used to it. Welcome aboard.
Migky is often on these boards so I'm sure he'll see it.
I hope you enjoy rootschat :)
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Thanks for the welcome Heywood. Good onya.
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I have locked this thread now. Only PM me if any one can help on the original request.
Migky