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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: jaytoot on Thursday 25 June 09 14:24 BST (UK)
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Help Help Help Please Please Please. Now you see em - now you don't!
My great great grandparents are william Miley and Merella, They are in the census in 1891 and again in 1901 when they are at court farm warlingham. They are with a Spicer Cooper and Alexander Lee amongst others.
Merella sometimes recorded as moreta, Murilla or on a death listed as Muralli Miley on free bmd.
I recently got a birth certificate for one of the children and she is shown as Merella Homes (she just recorded a cross for her name).
In the 1891 census she gives a birthplace of kent, westerham.
I have found her in 1871 recorded as Merreld holmes with father James and mother Harriet but cannot find this family before or after 1871. They are with Coopers and Drapers.
The name Holmes does not sound like a traveller family so I wonder if any one has any knowledge of them - perhaps they are really Coopers. Given the age diffrences between James and Harriet she may be his second wife? There is a son listed who is too old to be Harriets child.
I've tried laterall thinking but i just keep falling asleep (lol).
Jim
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Hi Jim- Is Mirella part of the SMITH family- Roser
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Hi,
I don't know if they are part of the smith family, i thought with a name like merella it was going to be easy to track down but no such luck.
Her daughter Christiana (Annie) goes on to marry Hiram Ayres and the witnesses are Frank Bird and Alice Cooper.
Her Other daughter Mariah (Maria) marries Henry Ayres and the witnesses are Thomas Cooper and Fanny Smith.
So 2 slight links to Coopers and 1 for a Smith.
jim
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Hi Jim- I have these people in my Data Base .This Mirelli who married a Smith was Mirelli Draper. If you get back to me in a couple of weeks, I will have more time to have a look through some other documents that I have for you- Jan
SMITH Mira 1846 Son N.K., Fersidney SMITH 1855 Son N.K, Leannah SMITH 1849 dtr N.K.
SMITH Mireli (Ref PAGE 119; Gypsies in Britain” Author Brian Vesey-FitzGerald, published late 1930s
SMITH Mireny 1854 Mar James & Trepany (Tramper), (Tinman) , (Brazier) Cholsey, Oxfordshire
DRAPER Mirelli (Ref page110; 112; 119; “Gypsies in Britain” Author Brian Vesey-FitzGerald, published late 1930s)
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Hi
The Mirella Draper who married a Smith (Ambrose) is my 4xgreat-grandmother. So I have a lot of info to share if it's useful - though her baptism still eludes me. She was born c1791.
There was another Mirella/Marella/Morella who was a contemporary of the one above - this one was a Smith who married Ferdinand Smith, brother of Ambrose, in Wells-by-the-Sea, Norfolk, in 1803.
You're right - Holmes doesn't immediately strike one as a Traveller name. But it could be the name of a non-Gypsy man who married into the Gypsy community. Or perhaps - as you say - an alias.
I've never had much luck trying to identify the Drapers who were camped with your Holmes in 1871 - so perhaps they're using an alias too. One of the children is called 'Belcher' and this name is often associated with Lees: a clue perhaps?
Best wishes
Sharon
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Hi again Jim
I've just managed to look up the name Holmes in Bob Dawson's book 'Gypsy Names for Genealogists: Surnames'.
It's listed there - with Bob citing that he's found Traveller refs to it (spelt both Holmes and Homes) from 1638 to the present day in the counties of Essex, London, Lincolnshire, Northern Ireland, Norfolk, Nottinghamshire, Shropshire, Suffolk, Sussex and Yorkshire.
Best wishes
Sharon
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Thanks for your replies.
It is hard to track down anyone on these pages.
The first names for the Draper is very hard to read and transcribed Jesery (strange). I think the son Belcher is a Cooper because free bmd has a birth of Belcher Cooper 1867 Reigate, which is a pretty good match with the census document. I can't find anything for Countsalifie though!
I had been under the impression that this side of my family were irish tinkers from Cork but thought that was the Mileys but it turns out they came from Dublin according to the census and no sign of the family travelling or tinkering.
The picture on the left is my nan Vertina James and my grandad James Miley outside of the charrabang that they lived on in shepperton.
There is no record of a marriage of Merella to William miley so it's going to be a struggle.
What info can i expect to see on a death certificate from the 1930's i am wondering if there would be anything of use by obtaining it.
Thanks again,
Jim
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Hi Jim
I read the forename of this adult Draper as 'Orsery'. That's a name you find a lot among the Grays in and around Cambridgeshire - which is odd considering that this Draper gives his birthplace as Newmarket, Cambs.
On the death cert question, an English or Welsh death cert from the 1930s will give you:
- date and place of death
- name of deceased
- their age
- occupation
- occupation may be replaced by 'wife of' or 'widow of' if it's the cert of a married woman
- cause of death and whether or not it was certified by a doctor
- name of person registering the death and their address, sometimes with their relationship to the deceased. (Could be a coroner if the death was accidental or unexpected.)
- date of registration of the death
Unfortunately, you don't get the maiden name of a married woman on certs at this period.
Best wishes
Sharon
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Hi Sharron,
thanks for the information regarding the death certificate. I don't think I will bother getting that.
I think the Draper group here are going to be difficult unless someone from that family comes along doing their family tree.
Thanks,
Jim
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Hi Jim
You're welcome.
And one day I just might invest in that Belcher Cooper birth cert. This family has been puzzling me for ages.
Best wishes
Sharon
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We have lots of Eastwood - Holmes all based around Burwash as a little offshoot to our main Eastwood Travellers that went to and settled in Kent? There's a Holmes in there somewhere and a definite connection to a travelling family but not a marriage. The children are all called Eastwood-Holmes
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Holmes is definatley a Romany name ,mostley round Notts area and Anglia,,some married into more South Romanies,
Ive found my Holmes relatives in the late 1800s in the census.
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I have a line of Holmes ancestors from the Epping Forest District. I have been trying to find out if they were Romany. I wonder if they're related to your Holmes family. My Gedmatch kit # is RL048381C1
Debbie Gambrell
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I'm interested in the family of the Belcher Cooper mentioned. We have Cooper ancestors, but my son's Y-DNA came back with a several Belcher DNA matches and it was a surname we had been unfamiliar with. My son's Gedmatch kit # is DM7033472
Debbie Gambrell
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Help Help Help Please Please Please. Now you see em - now you don't!
My great great grandparents are william Miley and Merella, They are in the census in 1891 and again in 1901 when they are at court farm warlingham. They are with a Spicer Cooper and Alexander Lee amongst others.
Merella sometimes recorded as moreta, Murilla or on a death listed as Muralli Miley on free bmd.
I recently got a birth certificate for one of the children and she is shown as Merella Homes (she just recorded a cross for her name).
In the 1891 census she gives a birthplace of kent, westerham.
I have found her in 1871 recorded as Merreld holmes with father James and mother Harriet but cannot find this family before or after 1871. They are with Coopers and Drapers.
The name Holmes does not sound like a traveller family so I wonder if any one has any knowledge of them - perhaps they are really Coopers. Given the age diffrences between James and Harriet she may be his second wife? There is a son listed who is too old to be Harriets child.
I've tried laterall thinking but i just keep falling asleep (lol).
Jim
Just come across this old thread and do have info on James Holmes/Arnold and Harriet Smith. James is the son of Aaron Holmes and Charlotte nee Arnold. The children of this family use the name Holmes and Arnold and are part of my Arnold family of Kent and Sussex. Aaron Holmes was bapt 1798 Chevening Kent to a Susanna Holmes, a traveller. Susanna also had a Frances 1792 Hayes Kent who married Thomas Bird in 1823, Moses 1805 bapt Sevenoaks, and a Joseph about 1801 Sevenoaks but havent found a bapt for him yet. Aarons wife Charlotte Arnold was bapt 1806 Cowfold I believe to James Arnold and wife Mary travellers, having several children in Kent and Sussex and the elderly James and Mary are on the 1851 in Reigate Surrey. One of their sons Francis bapt 1818 Chiddingstone, traveller was killed on Horley railway line in 1879 and on his burial the vicar puts a note that a Moses Arnold was killed in same spot 2 years previous. When I looked these up in newspapers Moses was born 1798 Crawley and son of James Arnold and wife Phoebe and grandson of my 5x gt grandparents Thomas Arnold and wife Ann. I dont know quite sure how yet but the two James Arnold were probably cousins. Your Merrella Arnold who married William Riley , her sister Mary Magdalen married Samuel Crutch who is gt grandson of my 3x gt grandfather Henry Coopers sister Siberina Cooper who partnered Charles Busby. Your James and Harriet are on the 1901 census at Westerham Kent as Arnolds. The Holmes and Arnolds do have children bapt with Spicer Cooper and Uriah Cooper and I expect the connection between them all is my 3x gt aunt Siberina who is buried in St Marys Cray Kent in 1826. Siberinas son John Busby and Joseph Arnold/ b 1801 Sevenoaks are on several census together in Dartford Kent.